"If it aint broke, break it" - Blizz on Blood

Death Knight
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Played Blood on and off since they were first introduced.

Current iteration of Blood is fine, if a little anemic. Death Strike rarely feels worth pushing now though - it's heal is anemic and it's cost is fairly steep. Would rather see less self-healing overall and more healing on Death Strike or the reverse with less on Death Strike and more self-healing on every other skill.

Also, would really appreciate Death's Advance just being a DK passive at this point; I'll gladly take being the most immobile class if it means I can't be slowed, snared, rooted, etc.
QQ about a spec clearly tuned to be used with artifact weapon? Nice.

Anyway, Blood is fine IMO. Lacking a few "oh !@#$" buttons, but nice, nevertheless.
07/20/2016 08:11 AMPosted by Darkbladejk
07/20/2016 08:04 AMPosted by Tylissius
Man you guys and your tears. Just play the damn game or go play fotm


or perhaps it's legitimate concern for a class we've played for years. you really have a massively over inflated ego there dude. get off your high horse dude and take your own advice if you don't like what we have to say.


If you've played the game as long as you have then you should know by now that Blizz does whatever they want whenever they want, regardless of salty tears.
So basically blood is now too complex for you? I suppose the devs didn't want people spamming just a few spells. I think blood is much better now, if only for getting heart strike back.
Blood now has many interesting talent choices that enhance the playstyle further. This change is exactly what we needed, and what the majority actually asked for.
07/21/2016 03:28 PMPosted by Resurgo
I was in Blades of Wrath when they were one of the top US guilds to kill C'thun


You keep spouting out names like they matter.

07/21/2016 03:28 PMPosted by Resurgo
I can sit back and rattle off a bunch of names that you won't care about, so let's stop pretending that achievement points matter?


Or, we can still compare the fact that IF you had been around during Wrath and Cata you'd have those raids completed and a TON more achievement points. If you've been around to do all the content from those expansions, and even BC then you'd have those points to back you. Hell MoP and WoD give out a sh*t ton of points.

07/21/2016 03:28 PMPosted by Resurgo
Again, my point is that today's 4 button rotation that you so graciously helped with, is a far cry from what DK's were capable of doing in the last two expacs that you did mostly LFRs in.


If you're only using 4 buttons you're doing it very, very wrong. Go back and look at the rotation I laid out.

07/21/2016 03:28 PMPosted by Resurgo
The fact my warrior was one of the top US guilds during Vanilla pretty much means...jack now. Just like your achievements.


Same goes with your damned HFC and WoD bullsh*t. I was in some low tier guilds in vanilla bud, raided ZG, AQ 20 and 40 when they dropped, UBRS 15 man, BWL, and MQ. Your old school stuff would have you points if you even did half the stuff you're claiming.

07/21/2016 03:28 PMPosted by Resurgo
Moreover, you prove my point. The fact you haven't done anything even remotely challenging as far as PvE since before MoP and can sit back and crow about how you've helped people with their rotation yesterday just proves just how shallow our rotation and depth has become today.


Or perhaps the fact my knowledge of the class that helped people complete (quite nicely mind you) some PvE content considerably better than how they were would be helpful. Here you remain being a negative prick about a class you only know PvE mechanics with.

07/21/2016 04:19 PMPosted by Vizoroth
been playing blod since wotlk, I like the DK still but I have no idea how to play it now, it feels very confusing


If you'd like some help, I'd be more than happy to assist in talent setup, and rotation.
07/21/2016 08:53 PMPosted by Rhaelos
QQ about a spec clearly tuned to be used with artifact weapon? Nice.

Anyway, Blood is fine IMO. Lacking a few "oh !@#$" buttons, but nice, nevertheless.


07/21/2016 10:27 PMPosted by Galalok
If you've played the game as long as you have then you should know by now that Blizz does whatever they want whenever they want, regardless of salty tears.


07/21/2016 11:27 PMPosted by Nekrus
So basically blood is now too complex for you? I suppose the devs didn't want people spamming just a few spells. I think blood is much better now, if only for getting heart strike back.
Blood now has many interesting talent choices that enhance the playstyle further. This change is exactly what we needed, and what the majority actually asked for.


My points ^

People are whining about a class that used to be such a face roll. Blood tanking was never super challenging on PvE or PvP content. You could throw yourself into a blob of enemies and never worry about health dropping below 50% or even 75% if you were really good.

Now it feels challenging. Now it feels engaging. And once we get artifacts we'll be even better than this pre-patch shell we all are.
@Tylissius:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/server/181/latest/#class=DeathKnight&spec=Blood&difficulty=4&partition=1

Numbers don't lie. You can't make a case about a class that you've only PvP'd in for the last 4+ years. You have no history with the class in the last 4 years to even begin to make a valid argument about what Blood was able to do compared to now. I can at least give you a definable spread of what Blood was capable of doing from the top 10 Blood DK's between my two servers.
Heroic Hellfire Assault for example:
102,000 dps vs 58,000 dps from top to bottom.

From a former designer of WoW
If I offered you two jobs: one gets you 97 cents and one gets you 3 cents. Which one would you focus on doing right first?

PvPers don't like it, but in the pragmatic land of production, PvP has to be a secondary consideration. Furthermore, PvP is insanely hard to test. I personally reached out to about 10 high level arena PvP Warlocks for their feedback on the Warlock in MoP.

I recieved emails from 3. Those emails consisted of:

"Oh, you know, I didn't try out MoP beta, I figure I'll just play it when it comes out in 5.0.4"
"I don't like instant fear and think burning rush is too good. You should consider redesigning it."
"If you give me beta access, I'll send you feedback."

I gave the one guy beta access and never heard back. I started on a blood fear redesign, then heard from destro locks on the forum that they're worthless without it, etc.

By comparison, the 10 high level PvE raiders I reached out to - all 10 replied within 24 hours, with a thorough discussion of their abilities, dreams of what each spec would do that was unique and they constantly gave detailed, balanced feedback.


Again, this is a PvE designed game first, PvP is secondary.

It's not that Blood isn't a capable tank now.
It's not that Blood doesn't do damage (especially compared to other tanks now)

The issue is that Blood is a much less involving spec with a much less impact and relevance with what you do and what you spec as compared to before.

There's plenty of logs of Blood during Foundry progression where a capable tank could lead Damage Done, DPS, Healing and Damage taken meters all at once in a fight. The vast majority of Blood tanks, however would fall in what would normally be expected.
Why? Because there was an actual tangible skill ceiling and floor where tanks could easily be discerned whether they were good or bad.

Today's Blood has a much lower toolset as compared to before, with a much less engaging rotation that barely matters. As a Blood tank today, barely anything matters beyond making sure that Blood has Marrowrend to 6+ stacks of boneshield (maybe more depending upon 1 talent). Maybe Death Strike here and there. Healers now bear the brunt of the work because self sustain is gone. (whether that is a positive or negative will also remain to be seen) The rest of the rotation is simply AE padding. It's not that much better/different for other tanks today either.
07/22/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Resurgo
@Tylissius:
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/rankings/server/181/latest/#class=DeathKnight&spec=Blood&difficulty=4&partition=1


Oh cool, a website that has PvE stats that don't really test anything about you as a player. Are you just a number? Is that what you're saying?

07/22/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Resurgo
You can't make a case about a class that you've only PvP'd in for the last 4+ years. You have no history with the class in the last 4 years to even begin to make a valid argument about what Blood was able to do compared to now.


I can make a case. Because it's still the same abilities. How do you think I leveled up? Lvling through PvP is slow and ungodly boring. I'm a blood DK just like you, and I find that you're only insulting a good portion of the other PvPers. Hell you are insulting us by saying we don't do "valid" content.

My "history" with this class goes back to Wrath. Your achievements on THIS character are practically laughable since you've done 0 content from back then. You have no room to stand on yourself since you've only done content from the past 4 years of PvE instead of 8 years total.

07/22/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Resurgo
Again, this is a PvE designed game first, PvP is secondary.


Holinka and other devs would disagree. This is a MMO game designed to fit EVERYONE'S wants and desires. Show me where Metzen or the other guys say SPECIFICALLY it's a PvE game. SHOW ME.

07/22/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Resurgo
The issue is that Blood is a much less involving spec with a much less impact and relevance with what you do and what you spec as compared to before.


Strongly disagree.

07/22/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Resurgo
There's plenty of logs


What the actual hell do logs have to do with anything?! It means literally nothing coming from class and spec input. It just shows your team comp and individual prowess within said comp was good enough to do it at whatever they measured!

07/22/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Resurgo
Today's Blood has a much lower toolset as compared to before


I can agree, they have less abilities, sure. Back in Wrath I had to use every bar for my abilities. Now it's down to 2.

07/22/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Resurgo
Healers now bear the brunt of the work because self sustain is gone.


Disagree further. I play a resto and in team WPvP fights (where PvEers are supposed to reign supreme now) resto is fun and super easy. I'm not challenged because nobody takes any serious damage.

In Blood WPvP and instanced PvP I'm not dying. My selfheals and sustain are off the charts. I feel confident that I can 1vX certain classes and comps.

If you're complaining about PvE Blood, maybe you're just not as good as you thought because you thought you could just roll Blood tank and assume that it was a face roll class.

Blood was never challenging (except in PvP). Blood was never short on spells and heals, and thus rarely died.

I am more challenged, and engaged in the current spell set for Blood than I ever was. And I've played (AGAIN) since wrath started.

You have no room to argue on this, since you've never even done end game wrath or Cata content. So I'm lead to believe you rolled Blood DK in MoP because you thought it was an easy tank class. Sure you've fought your way to the "top" of charts, but I've never heard of you. I don't care about who is who. All I care about is results in current content. You know, where it actually matters. Since you've never really dabbled in PvP (from the looks of it) you're arguments have literally zero sway on me. And there's about half the game (I'd say) that would agree.
You keep talking about your achievements and being active in Wrath or Cat as it matters today.
Sorry, but it doesn't.

I was a warrior in Vanilla, but that hardly makes me even remotely qualified to talk about a Warrior today because the two are completely different animals.

DK's during Wrath were a completely different animal. Frost could be a dual wield tank. That's a far cry from anything you can talk about today. (come to think of it, all 3 could tank at release...)
You want to talk about tanks in Cata, then we can talk hit rating, or expertise, or wait... that doesn't matter today either.
Let's talk MoP, where we can talk about how Vengeance, and... oh, that doesn't matter either.

So now that we can get the past out of the way, let's get back to the present, where you have no experience to talk about Blood outside of leveling for the last 4 years except for LFR and PvP.

Sorry, but we both know that as far as Blue posts in regards to PvP, there isn't going to be much. Because as far as the designers go, they've mostly ignored PvP. Pretty easy to search for PvP related posts or PvP forum and compare that to PvE, doesn't even compare. What you can find, is blue posts trying to get more people to be involved in PvP, because PvP numbers participation amounts to maybe a quarter of the overall population.

The last time, Blizzard posted official numbers for PvE compared to PvP
900,000 instances of PvE vs 600,000 instances of PvP.
(which doesn't even include the fact that many, if not more PvE instances will last far longer than PvP instances will)

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/18300015449
According to a forum mod on 7/24/2015,
The numbers located at http://www.arenamate.net/arena-rbg-title-cutoffs show rated arena participation at just above 30,000 characters after 4 weeks in the season.

Even considering the downturn in subscription numbers from a high of 10million, we were at 5.5million at 11/2015, only 4 months after those numbers posted.

If you actually looked at logs, you could track every single cast, position of the player, and the timing of the player. You could even track every single mistake they made. Maybe you could try to learn how to read?

My complaints aren't about Blood being faceroll, because if you actually could decipher the numbers in a log, you'd know that PvE Blood play could vary quite a lot, but you wouldn't know because you haven't tried in the last 4 years.
07/22/2016 12:42 PMPosted by Resurgo
You keep talking about your achievements and being active in Wrath or Cat as it matters today.
Sorry, but it doesn't.


You keep talking about Vanilla like it matters... I was there, I know full well what it was like. It doesn't matter either.

I bring up Wrath and Cata because if you were active then you'd have probably a little bit more leeway on your arguments. The fact you know NOTHING about what we were capable of is the reason I bring it up. The fact you never did end content of Cata also tell me a lot about what you know about PvE

07/22/2016 12:42 PMPosted by Resurgo
Let's talk MoP, where we can talk about how Vengeance, and... oh, that doesn't matter either.


So why do you act like it does?

07/22/2016 12:42 PMPosted by Resurgo
So now that we can get the past out of the way, let's get back to the present, where you have no experience to talk about Blood outside of leveling for the last 4 years except for LFR and PvP.


You just said MoP didn't matter :^)

07/22/2016 12:42 PMPosted by Resurgo
Sorry, but we both know that as far as Blue posts in regards to PvP, there isn't going to be much. Because as far as the designers go, they've mostly ignored PvP. Pretty easy to search for PvP related posts or PvP forum and compare that to PvE, doesn't even compare. What you can find, is blue posts trying to get more people to be involved in PvP, because PvP numbers participation amounts to maybe a quarter of the overall population.


Because we sh*t talk the PvP designers constantly. Would you want to talk to a bunch of testerone, mt dew hyper PvPers? I wouldn't. There's a reason they divide up PvP into "seasons". And it's because they try to spice it up for us. They APPEAL to us at the turn of each season by crunching numbers and HAVE EVEN used it to weaken/buff PvE blood.

07/22/2016 12:42 PMPosted by Resurgo
(which doesn't even include the fact that many, if not more PvE instances will last far longer than PvP instances will)


Because PvP gets stale if it isn't refreshed. Again "season" are in place for a reason.

07/22/2016 12:42 PMPosted by Resurgo
Even considering the downturn in subscription numbers from a high of 10million, we were at 5.5million at 11/2015, only 4 months after those numbers posted.


If you PvP'd at all, I'd take you seriously here. But that's funny. If you think rating matters at all in PvP then you're laughed at. The point of rating is to limit and pick out WHO exactly is the best. They specifically hinder (players do this) who they want to do what.

Arena/RBG rating used to be ok, and mattered. It doesn't anymore. Cheating, botting, etc. has flooded and ruined rated play. But since you don't PvP, I'll just say you're not accustomed to the toxicity of PvP.

07/22/2016 12:42 PMPosted by Resurgo
If you actually looked at logs, you could track every single cast, position of the player, and the timing of the player. You could even track every single mistake they made. Maybe you could try to learn how to read?


Considering I'm reading you posting about bullsh*t I think I'm doing quite well.
I'll reiterate, that "log" site doesn't say anything. It doesn't prove anything. It just shows you know PvE mechanics. It doesn't prove very much outside of you know how to live long enough and complete a mechanic that you can progress on each week.

You know what PvP does? It makes you progress EACH DAY. EACH MINUTE. You have to constantly be on your toes to test your worth in team/solo fights. PvE Blood is fine and dandy, but your logs don't prove you know how to play the class to its fullest.

07/22/2016 12:42 PMPosted by Resurgo
you'd know that PvE Blood play could vary quite a lot, but you wouldn't know because you haven't tried in the last 4 years.


How do you think someone levels up? PvE. Last time I PvE'd blood? A year ago. Last time I did LFR? 6 months ago I tried blood tank. Hated how easy it was.

Thanks for checking in on how well I can play blood. Quit being a negative Nancy dude and be more constructive.
07/20/2016 09:19 AMPosted by Tainnava
i miss blood tap...


Blood has it in beta
LFR is hardly any measure of difficulty.

Even if I wanted to take you seriously as a PvP player, I decided to look, you haven't even broke 1500 ranking.

So, you haven't even completed PvE content on normal over the last four years, and your achievements show you haven't even broke 1500 ranking as PvP ever.

" ...testerone, mt dew hyper PvPers?"
I suppose you're more accurate than you think at least in that area.
07/22/2016 01:29 PMPosted by Resurgo
LFR is hardly any measure of difficulty.


Same with PvE. It tests nothing.

07/22/2016 01:29 PMPosted by Resurgo
Even if I wanted to take you seriously as a PvP player, I decided to look, you haven't even broke 1500 ranking.


I already explained to you how rating doesn't even matter.

07/22/2016 01:29 PMPosted by Resurgo
So, you haven't even completed PvE content on normal over the last four years, and your achievements show you haven't even broke 1500 ranking as PvP ever.


Fun fact, I did break 1500 RBG. It was laughably easy and only took a couple hours. Rating. Doesn't. Matter.

07/22/2016 01:29 PMPosted by Resurgo
" ...testerone, mt dew hyper PvPers?"
I suppose you're more accurate than you think at least in that area.


Maybe because I speak from experience? Have you even thought for a second that MAYBE I know what I'm talking about? I don't doubt you being a PvE nerd and doing HFC mythic/heroic. Cool, good for you. But it doesn't translate over for me. Likewise, what I'm telling you, obviously, doesn't translate back.

Agree to disagree I suppose.
I think the people who are playing the "Everything's fine and you're all whining about changes" game are missing a key thing here.

It's not that Blood is bad, or that change is bad, it's that the current Blood spec has a low skill floor and low skill cap.

It's that figuring out how to maximize your damage and mitigation with the spec isn't difficult, and neither is executing on it. And also that the difference between that and doing nothing to maximize your potential really isn't large enough.

From a game design perspective, a low skill floor is good, because it lets everybody play, but you need some depth to make them engaging for long periods of time, and Blood doesn't have that right now.

And it's not like they removed all depth and complexity from the game - There are still some specs that feel a lot more engaging, like ~kinda~ Survival hunter using Way of the Mok'Nathal - so we know they can do it for Blood. They just... Didn't.

I'm going to try to keep all of my tanks, including my DH when they come out, at 110 and viable for tanking, but I sincerely doubt DK will be near the top of my fun-to-play list unless we see some more changes.

Fun fact, I did break 1500 RBG. It was laughably easy and only took a couple hours. Rating. Doesn't. Matter.


Yeah, me beating the kid in the park at speed chess is equivalent to beating Bobby Fisher.
07/22/2016 01:41 PMPosted by Furor
Yeah, me beating the kid in the park at speed chess is equivalent to beating Bobby Fisher.


Since when does chess = WoW PvP? It doesn't. PvP takes on different elements than chess. Chess you're able to calculate your moves, your opponents moves, and so on. The only limiting factor would be the person skill level.

The problem though, is most of those chess players are REALLY really good. They are not hindered by anything such as RNG, healers, dps, or tanks. They do not have to rely on factors such as orb carrying, flag carrying, etc.

Please also note, that in Chess you cannot cheat nearly as blatantly as you could this last season. People have been carried, botted, fly hacking, etc.

RATING. DOESN'T. MATTER.
Ah, god bless the ignore feature.
07/22/2016 02:06 PMPosted by Furor
Ah, god bless the ignore feature.


Go to the PvP forums and ask them how much rating matters then.
I think the people who are playing the "Everything's fine and you're all whining about changes" game are missing a key thing here.

It's not that Blood is bad, or that change is bad, it's that the current Blood spec has a low skill floor and low skill cap.

It's that figuring out how to maximize your damage and mitigation with the spec isn't difficult, and neither is executing on it. And also that the difference between that and doing nothing to maximize your potential really isn't large enough.


Exactly.
07/22/2016 02:48 PMPosted by Resurgo
I think the people who are playing the "Everything's fine and you're all whining about changes" game are missing a key thing here.

It's not that Blood is bad, or that change is bad, it's that the current Blood spec has a low skill floor and low skill cap.

It's that figuring out how to maximize your damage and mitigation with the spec isn't difficult, and neither is executing on it. And also that the difference between that and doing nothing to maximize your potential really isn't large enough.


Exactly.


That is exactly how I felt with the spec since I started playing it on beta. It is so easy and boring to play now with no form of complexity whatsoever.

Sadly the talents that have the potential to offer such a playstyle are either incredibly undertuned (Tombstone) or overall horribly designed (Soulgorge). Those talents in their current state are just awful and I feel if blizzard fixes them I might enjoy the spec a lot more.
After playing all the tanks on Beta, I actually really like the way blood feels now. (I loved it in WOD too)
I might just be strange though. But I'm enjoying the play style and I think overall in regards to all the changes tank classes got hammered with in Legion - Blood came out pretty well.

Just my 2 cents.

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