Stop underestimating Arcane Explosion in PvP

Mage
Posted this in another thread, but I think it begs repeating due to all the mindless cynicism I've seen here.

------

Arcane Blast: 150% of spellpower at 3.2% base mana cost.

Arcane Explosion: 75% of spellpower at 2% base mana cost.

The damage increase with charges and mastery is the same, leading to the same increase in damage.

For the sake of clarity, at 60% Arcane Charge damage, both Arcane Blast and Arcane Explosion are increased by 340%, putting Arcane Blast at 510% spellpower and Arcane Explosion at 255% spellpower.

So Arcane Explosion does exactly HALF the damage of one Arcane Blast

For the sake of argument, assume you have 20% haste.

1 GCD = 1.5 seconds so at 20% haste that's 1.5/1.2 = 1.25 seconds.

Arcane Blast = 2.25 seconds so at 20% haste that's 2.25/1.2 = 1.88 seconds

For every two casts of Arcane Blast (3.76s) you can squeeze in 4 Arcane Explosions (3.75s in GCDs). For every four casts of AB (7.52s) you can squeeze in 7 Arcane Explosions. For every six casts of AB (11.28s) you can squeeze in 11 Arcane Explosions.

So while spamming Arcane Explosion becomes less slightly effective than spamming Arcane Blast after the first few casts (amounting to a loss in single digit percentages), there is an underlying assumption that you're being a turret, always in range, and never interrupted.

Let's assume you have a window of casting 2 Arcane Blasts from now on.

Accounting for Critical Strikes requires more in-depth analysis, but considering we do not get many critical strike boosts (none for individual spells), taking it into account is immaterial.

One can argue that you are more likely to get 2 Arcane Blast crits than 4 Arcane Explosion crits, but one can also argue you are more likely to get crits with 4 casts than 2.

The Arcane Missile generation bonus irrelevant. At 15% base AM generation, 2 casts of Arcane Explosion have a (1-0.85)^2 = 28% chance to generate an Arcane Charge compared to the 30% chance for the 1 Arcane Blast cast.

What's the real cost? Mana efficiency on single target and range.

The argument for range is subjective depending on the parameters of the fight. Are you being chased or trained? Is the enemy not going to interrupt you? etc..

At 4 charges, Arcane Blast costs 3.2*4 = 12.8% base mana cost.

At 4 charges, Arcane Explosion costs 2*4 = 8% base mana cost.

So using the above 2 for 4 ratio:

2 casts of Arcane Blast costs you 25.6% of base mana.

4 casts of Arcane Explosion costs 32% of base mana.

This makes 4 Arcane Explosions cost 32/25.6 = 1.25 times as much as 2 Arcane Blasts.

Considering the benefits gained from instant casting, if you're trying to effectively burst someone down without wanting to be interrupted or chasing the dreaded pillar humpers, Arcane Explosion is the clear winner over Arcane Blast.

Yes it's weird to spam an AOE, but it is what it is. It's our only instant "sustained" ability on single target. Adapt.
Because this discussion needed another thread.
In short, the Damage Per Effective Time (DPET) of Arcane Explosion is 3/4 of Arcane Blast per target.
I'll try again. The damage isn't the point. In order to use Arcane explosion he has to be in melee range. Because you're in melee range you're not going to get a cc off on the Healer, which means the healer is going to be free to heal through your damage. Which means there's no point in doing the damage because you're not going to beat a Healer's Mana as an Arcane mage.

As far as the pillar humping point, that's why you bring a partner with a stun to hold the kill Target in place.

When I said they weren't equivalent, I was referring to positioning. If you're in position to where you can arcane explosion anything, you should be trying to gtfo in most cases.

Currently arcane's best shot is using Shimmer with prismatic cloak to help get damage off. You can watch yellowlizards stream for examples of this.

The problem is that it's limited, because you have to sacrifice your defensive mobility for the sake of damage.
07/31/2016 02:45 PMPosted by Kearvek
I'll try again. The damage isn't the point. In order to use Arcane explosion he has to be in melee range. Because you're in melee range you're not going to get a cc off on the Healer, which means the healer is going to be free to heal through your damage. Which means there's no point in doing the damage because you're not going to beat a Healer's Mana as an Arcane mage.

As far as the pillar humping point, that's why you bring a partner with a stun to hold the kill Target in place.

When I said they weren't equivalent, I was referring to positioning. If you're in position to where you can arcane explosion anything, you should be trying to gtfo in most cases.

Currently arcane's best shot is using Shimmer with prismatic cloak to help get damage off. You can watch yellowlizards stream for examples of this.

The problem is that it's limited, because you have to sacrifice your defensive mobility for the sake of damage.


^^What this guy is saying. Mythlos, you are really missing the point, the issue has little to do with our ability to deal numbers, you need to understand what we are talking about for this to progress.
There once was a Mage called Molly
Who was never able to Poly
Kicked on all casts
Spammed Explosion to Blast
My she was a right wally!
I'm not saying you should stop using Arcane Blast. I never said that.

In fact I've repeatedly stated that the ideal situation is to remain at range and Arcane has the tools for that.

It's simply that Arcane Explosion can be used when you're being trained by melee, or at a huge risk of interrupts.

If you have the ability to cast from range, then by all means that's definitely the way to go assuming you aren't wasting time canceling casts. Any variables such as your ally stunning the enemy changes everything.

This thread is directed at people who, while playing Arcane, opt to continue casting Arcane Blast while being swarmed by melee, believing that Arcane Explosion is inefficient when it has the same effect except you actually gain the benefit of damaging the enemy rather than do nothing but try to run.

I've seen it a lot while running Skirmishes/RBGs against or with Arcane Mages.

I don't think we're in much disagreement here.
----

@Kearvak

Does Prismatic Cloak prevent ranged interrupts? That would be a decent workaround, although the trade-off would be not having on-demand mobility as you said.
08/01/2016 08:27 AMPosted by Mythlos

@Kearvak

Does Prismatic Cloak prevent ranged interrupts? That would be a decent workaround, although the trade-off would be not having on-demand mobility as you said.


100% miss from spells for 2.5 seconds, so CS, Silence, Lock pet kick, etc would all not work. It basically gives you evanesce as far as spells are concerned. Combine with Shimmer, and it's currently now arcane mages are getting damage off. However in addition to sacrificing defensive mobility, you're also sacrificing using it for what other mages are using it for: blinking around pillars for a CS immune poly on healers.

Sequence for that goes like this:
1. Healer is in LoS, so you start to cast.
2. Healer goes behind pillar.
3. Shimmer to get behind pillar while still casting, so it connects.
08/01/2016 08:41 AMPosted by Kearvek
08/01/2016 08:27 AMPosted by Mythlos

@Kearvak

Does Prismatic Cloak prevent ranged interrupts? That would be a decent workaround, although the trade-off would be not having on-demand mobility as you said.


100% miss from spells for 2.5 seconds, so CS, Silence, Lock pet kick, etc would all not work. It basically gives you evanesce as far as spells are concerned. Combine with Shimmer, and it's currently now arcane mages are getting damage off. However in addition to sacrificing defensive mobility, you're also sacrificing using it for what other mages are using it for: blinking around pillars for a CS immune poly on healers.

Sequence for that goes like this:
1. Healer is in LoS, so you start to cast.
2. Healer goes behind pillar.
3. Shimmer to get behind pillar while still casting, so it connects.

That is not how its working. At the moment it does not immune interupts as a interupt is not considered a spell. Secondly, they reduced it to 1.5 seconds
Counterspell, windshear, etc. Aren't considered spells? That's pretty jacked up.
07/31/2016 02:32 PMPosted by Aowyn
In short, the Damage Per Effective Time (DPET) of Arcane Explosion is 3/4 of Arcane Blast per target.


Haha that's true if you cast to infinity but you only effectively less than 8 or so times in succession so the ratio larger than that.
08/01/2016 05:00 PMPosted by Kearvek
Counterspell, windshear, etc. Aren't considered spells? That's pretty jacked up.

Yep, its pretty BS
08/01/2016 05:45 PMPosted by Majinbloved
08/01/2016 05:00 PMPosted by Kearvek
Counterspell, windshear, etc. Aren't considered spells? That's pretty jacked up.

Yep, its pretty BS


That has to be a bug. Prismatic cloak is a garbage talent otherwise.
08/01/2016 06:14 PMPosted by Kearvek
08/01/2016 05:45 PMPosted by Majinbloved
...
Yep, its pretty BS


That has to be a bug. Prismatic cloak is a garbage talent otherwise.


Heres hoping man... It's game changing
Everance was bugged in the same way at the start of WoD.

It wouldn't negate Counterspell or Windsheer.

Though was hotfixed soon after.

So perhaps they'll do the same for Prismatic.

That said .. it's a 1.5sec immunity.. that's almost nothing.
Maybe if we all speak up together they might fix it, there were still things that went through evanesce that they didnt bother to fix before (Knockbacks) which i think was fair. However its not clear if it is a bug or intentional at the moment.

Unite people!! :)

We want it to last 2 seconds, and we want it to immune kicks, including the stupid lock pet kick too!
Prismatic Cloak doesn't prevent interrupts because they are coded to never miss. You can check them at wowhead or mmo-champion, they should all have the "Cannot miss" flag. You need an actual immunity to prevent them.

This was added during Cata:

Patch 4.2.0 (2011-06-28): All non-damaging interrupts off the global cooldown will now always hit the target. This includes Pummel, Kick, Mind Freeze, Rebuke, Skull Bash, Counterspell, Wind Shear, Solar Beam, Silencing Shot, and related player pet abilities.


If I recall correctly, they did it for PvE reasons; at the time, Hit Rating was a thing and missed interrupts was causing a lot of problems for undergerared players.

Since the reason for this change no longer applies, it is worth petitioning for a removal of this "Cannot miss" flag on interrupts.

08/01/2016 08:57 PMPosted by Arcilli
However its not clear if it is a bug or intentional at the moment.


it is intended for Cata's design. Probably forgotten by now.
08/03/2016 02:35 PMPosted by Aowyn
Prismatic Cloak doesn't prevent interrupts because they are coded to never miss. You can chck them at wowhead or mmo-champion, they should all have the "Cannot miss" flag. You need an actual immunity to prevent them.

This was added during Cata:

Patch 4.2.0 (2011-06-28): All non-damaging interrupts off the global cooldown will now always hit the target. This includes Pummel, Kick, Mind Freeze, Rebuke, Skull Bash, Counterspell, Wind Shear, Solar Beam, Silencing Shot, and related player pet abilities.


If I recall correctly, they did it for PvE reasons; at the time, Hit Rating was a thing and missed interrupts was causing a lot of problems for undergerared players.

Since the reason for this change no longer applies, it is worth petitioning for a removal of this "Cannot miss" flag on interrupts.

08/01/2016 08:57 PMPosted by Arcilli
However its not clear if it is a bug or intentional at the moment.


it is intended for Cata's design. Probably forgotten by now.


Excellent point. This needs to be addressed immediately in the Beta forums.

Alternatively they can just give Blink the Evanesce effect rather than this convoluted mess. It won't make that much of a difference for melee and has the same effect for ranged. If it's too OP for Fire (reason they nerfed Prismatic Cloak) then they can nerf them differently.
Giving it the evanesce effect combined with shimmer would make Prismatic Cloak better than WoD's version of evan while giving us ice block still.

No way that would go live.

It wouldn't shock me if they're aware of the interrupt can't miss thing and intended it to be a protection from damage spells only deal.
08/03/2016 03:03 PMPosted by Kearvek
Giving it the evanesce effect combined with shimmer would make Prismatic Cloak better than WoD's version of evan while giving us ice block still.

No way that would go live.

It wouldn't shock me if they're aware of the interrupt can't miss thing and intended it to be a protection from damage spells only deal.


Is it that functionally different from what they're trying to do here? Assuming being susceptible to ranged interrupts was not intended...

Hell it would probably help shore up our glaring weakness against Hunters and is not nearly as significant for melee since even the fastest gap closer takes 0.5s to reach you and assuming excellent ping and amazing reaction time after the enemy blinks, that's another 0.5s to actually hit the button to gap close. It would functionally give you at most 0.5 seconds of immunity against melee assuming all of the above which is almost negligible.

The exception would be a very adept, low ping, uber reaction time Sub Rogue I suppose.
Also if you blink right into another melee.

Bah nevermind then lol.. maybe make it "Evanesce" only for spells.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum