Combat rogue gone

Rogue
I could NOT be more disappointed with the changes to my class. I have ONE character that I play on WOW and that was a combat rogue. I get back from comic con where I attended the Legion panel and everything, where the focus was all on artifacts and demon hunters, and the only character I have has been striped down so thoroughly, my specialization gone, that no artifact is going to make it exciting to play my rogue again.

I understand that the creators wanted to define the specializations more concretely. However, even the attempt at forging the "outlaw" spec seems lackluster. The defining factor for that spec seems to be the reintroduction of the rogue ranged play (something I actually wanted when I first chose rogue years ago), but there are only 2 or 3 attacks that are geared towards this, very basic ones I should add, and there is no appeal for it since you don't even acquire interesting weaponry, just push a button.

I've lost most of my attacks in whichever spec I use because they narrowed them down so much, which makes my rogue just plain... boring, I am so saddened to say. I can't keep extended ambush, killing spree, poisons, and stealth attacks, and there are no real new abilities that make up for the dividing of the old ones. In fact, stealth is not even the exciting ability it was anymore, with there barely being any options for attacks under it, even with subtlety. What's the point in being a rogue without stealth, when you could just go fight as a warrior or paladin? I can no longer blanket a team in stealth, or use a smokescreen, and I cannot understand why ambush couldn't easily be utilized by every spec?

I am just so disappointed by what has been done to this class, and I can only hope something changes before the expansion hits or I don't know what I'm playing anymore.
Sorry to hear you don't like outlaw. It's really not that different from pre-cata combat spec. I know the loss of a lot of those neat unique things can be daunting and somewhat upsetting, but try it out a bit and I think you may be surprised at how fun it can still be.
Hope you come around, and can still find fun in the game if not... hey you get 10-15 extra dollars every month.
07/29/2016 12:07 AMPosted by Sepcemia
Sorry to hear you don't like outlaw. It's really not that different from pre-cata combat spec. I know the loss of a lot of those neat unique things can be daunting and somewhat upsetting, but try it out a bit and I think you may be surprised at how fun it can still be.
Hope you come around, and can still find fun in the game if not... hey you get 10-15 extra dollars every month.


It is VERY different from the combat rogue I was playing, though I realize not everyone was fond of combat rogues to begin with. I didn't pick a class hoping that they would make one of the specs essentially a gimmick, just catering to those that want a pirate fantasy. The specs should have unique abilities but be vague enough for you to roleplay as you choose. And if they wanted to make such a drastic change, which there's nothing I can do to stop it, they could at least make it a little more polished. How can we be back to having ranged weapons, but not really even need to obtain crossbows and blunderbusses? Why wouldn't a pirate also be privy to use of poisons and unscrupulous methods? And one of the few new abilities is bribe, which comes with a 30 min cooldown that deters integrating it into regular combat. I like variety in my gameplay, and one knife attack, one pistol shot, one lunge finisher, one gun finisher and a couple random abilities like bribe is just boring. But I guess when you're used to combat rogue which combines poisons, stealth, and surprise attack melee, it is GOING to be boring to settle for such simple gameplay.
07/29/2016 12:52 AMPosted by Junivogel
I like variety in my gameplay, and one knife attack, one pistol shot, one lunge finisher, one gun finisher and a couple random abilities like bribe is just boring. But I guess when you're used to combat rogue which combines poisons, stealth, and surprise attack melee, it is GOING to be boring to settle for such simple gameplay.
Ok... but that's basically what Combat was. You built cp with SS and RvS, maintained uninteresting buffs, dumped your cp into Evis(occasionally Rupture if it worked out to not be a dps loss in your gear), turned on Blade Flurry if there was AoE to be done, and pushed 2 cooldowns every once in a while, and slightly modified your behavior based on Insight level.
It has been a loooong time since stealth played a significant role in Combat's gameplay and poisons were always just a buff you applied every hour and nothing about your kit interacted with them.
I get that there was a lot that was lost but claiming Outlaw is a completely different animal is simply untrue.
I feel Outlaw hasn't gone far enough and it does create a disappointing middle of the road option. However as someone who raided as a rogue in all expansions to varying levels (Hardcore play until Cata then I went Casual, MoP and WoD I exclusively played LFR because I lost all will to raid, will actually raid in Legion though)

Combat has never once been a crazy fun spec to play. It was always static.

In Vanilla it was: SSx3 > SnD > SSx5 > SnD > Eviscerate, repeat. If you were daggers it went: Backstabx5 > SnD > repeat.

In TBC it was: SS to build CP then use: 3slice (3 point slice)/4r (4 point rupture) in most scenarios and you kept up SnD and Rupture if able but prioritized SnD. The only time this changed was with 2pc t4 in which you did 2s > 4/5r due to the set bonus.

In Wrath I went Mutilate primarily and was a fan of it however combat then was basically: 4ss, revealing strike, finisher. Or maybe it was revealing strike only if the finisher was eviscerate. Hell at that point Rupture was so bad by 3.3 that assassination rogue rotation was literally: Stealth in, Garrote into SnD, mutilate to 4/5 cp, envenom, repeat.

Cataclysm/MoP/WoD pretty much the same playstyle.

Outlaw doesn't bring this crazy fun PvE element to it but no specs have ever been fun in PvE, it's always been about a rotation to do the most damage.
I do be thinkin' outlaw do be the underbelly tickin' of a great blu whale!

That do be meanin' tis fun! Before all the rogue specs do be feelin' sorta of the same. Now outlaw do be feeling like the Rogue who do be fightin toe to toe with their would be quarry.
Honestly, Combat is probably the most preserved Rogue spec from WoD, apart from the name change.

Pistol Shot applies your snare. Between the Eyes is your Kidney. Still have an option for Killing Spree. Revealing Strike is sorta baked into Saber Slash. Blind and Gouge are still there. Adrenaline Rush is still there. Riposte instead of Evasion. Mobility is a bit lacking, but you have frequent ranged damage/snares and a ranged stun.

The biggest gameplay change is the loss of Bandit's Guile. But you can stack up Ghostly Strike, Prey on the Weak, and a PvP talent or two to basically simulate the damage bonus of Bandit's Guile.

Subtlety and Assassination are much more different than WoD's version.
07/29/2016 07:34 AMPosted by Kolt
Honestly, Combat is probably the most preserved Rogue spec from WoD, apart from the name change.

Pistol Shot applies your snare. Between the Eyes is your Kidney. Still have an option for Killing Spree. Revealing Strike is sorta baked into Saber Slash. Blind and Gouge are still there. Adrenaline Rush is still there. Riposte instead of Evasion. Mobility is a bit lacking, but you have frequent ranged damage/snares and a ranged stun.

The biggest gameplay change is the loss of Bandit's Guile. But you can stack up Ghostly Strike, Prey on the Weak, and a PvP talent or two to basically simulate the damage bonus of Bandit's Guile.

Subtlety and Assassination are much more different than WoD's version.


Again, I specifically primarily only played combat, which I think most people did not. And the equating one ability to another that might sort of replace it doesn't work for those of us who actually like to role play. I'm not thinking Between the eyes is my kidney, I'm thinking as a rogue I would 100% apply a knife attack that stuns a target but it makes no sense for me to apply a gunshot now that I have bare minimum ranged fighting that doesn't even really have me indulge in the acquisition and use of ranged weapons. One shot or multiple shots from a hidden pistol I don't acquire. Not terribly interesting visually, and doesn't allow for much individualization. At least when I first started playing this rogue I could obtain ranged weapons and choose whether or not I wanted to use a gun or a crossbow or whatever else. And I just REALLY personally hate this pirate theme. I don't want to be a pirate, and it's kind of unavoidable if I want to keep killing spree and ambush. And the cannonball barrage isn't even as cool looking as the theme would encourage.
Revealing Strike came in Cataclysm.
I've played a combat rogue since Vanilla and I've always said we were the original face rollers! :)

What everyone else has said about Outlaw abilities is spot on. It looks like we lost a lot but we didn't. I think the class fantasy aspect is very lame. There is no connection to pirates. But I've noticed my game play isn't that different as Outlaw. I miss throw and shadowstep quite a bit. But we didn't have shadowstep for a very long time so I have to do what I did for years. . .stealth behind the mobs as the tank pulls. It's kind of funny when people follow me as I stealth toward a boss, not realizing that I have to be closer to the boss now.

Ultimately, this game is about fun. I did shelve this toon for part of MoP as I didn't like some of the changes to rogues back then. I played a different toon during that time but went back to my first love. I still love this toon and rogues really did need some love. But it's true . . .always be careful of what you wish for! :)
07/29/2016 01:59 AMPosted by Sepcemia
07/29/2016 12:52 AMPosted by Junivogel
I like variety in my gameplay, and one knife attack, one pistol shot, one lunge finisher, one gun finisher and a couple random abilities like bribe is just boring. But I guess when you're used to combat rogue which combines poisons, stealth, and surprise attack melee, it is GOING to be boring to settle for such simple gameplay.
Ok... but that's basically what Combat was. You built cp with SS and RvS, maintained uninteresting buffs, dumped your cp into Evis(occasionally Rupture if it worked out to not be a dps loss in your gear), turned on Blade Flurry if there was AoE to be done, and pushed 2 cooldowns every once in a while, and slightly modified your behavior based on Insight level.
It has been a loooong time since stealth played a significant role in Combat's gameplay and poisons were always just a buff you applied every hour and nothing about your kit interacted with them.
I get that there was a lot that was lost but claiming Outlaw is a completely different animal is simply untrue.


I disagree, but as this is my only character I took the time to try out different things with it. I'll walk you through a general scenario of the variety combat offered. First, poisons were just nice to have as a background element, though not essential. But it makes sense that any rogue would at least be able to buy and apply them to weaponry. Activate stealth, attack with ambush (from very far away - this is no longer an option), attack again with ambush (or garrote - no longer an option) if you've chosen the extended stealth ability, or choose to cloak all of the members of your party in stealth if you are facing a challenging foe. Then use vanish, and attack again, probably with ambush. Then use preparation to refresh sprint, evasion, vanish, and use vanish again in order to use ambush. Then you can choose to disable a few targets with blind, kidney shot, cheap shot for the benefit of others, or go straight into ss and evis. Blade flurry is coolest when utilizing killing spree for multiple targets. If you feel inclined to escape or help others to, there was vanish and the reset for vanish, a smoke screen option, and the cloaking party members ability. They've just taken away the ability to play a diverse rogue and are making you settle for a third of the abilities that comprised your skillset. And again, nothing I can do about it, but if you're going to give us back a ranged class, why not actually have us obtain and wield cool weaponry to go with it? Why just the one shot or finishing shot pistol moves and no election of a weapon or varying moves to go with it? And I still don't understand why a shady rogue, pirate, assassin, ninja, w/e you wanna play, isn't privy under all specs to buying and applying poison, kidney shots, and smokescreening for examples, if nothing else, just from a logical standpoint. Other than the fact that they are so eager to define specs they are unnecessarily taking away abilities I think even swashbuckling pirates would be able to execute.
The one ability I will say maybe makes sense is healing by potion rather than regenerating from damage dealt, since I preferred to use my other finishers all of the time, and because potions make more sense than magical healing to a rogue. But we did already have potions too.
I RP as well and I understand the desire to have options, but the only thing that made Combat different from the other specs, from an RP perspective, before was wielding larger weapons. You weren't better able to fight toe-to-toe and you didn't fight dirtier than the other rogues.
I don't understand your attachment to poisons. They weren't interesting or unique. I'm frankly glad they're gone for Outlaw.
I too played exclusively Combat on my rogue from when I made him in the end of BC until I started over new on a new account here at the end of WoD. I always played him as more of a highwayman rather than a pirate, but Outlaw still fits this except for a few ability names which can easily be ignored in RP.
Your aversion to using the other 2 specs in order to expand your character archetype options also puzzles me. I've never felt the need to do this because Combat has always filled my rogues archetypal desires, but if you want to play your character a certain way then why aren't you willing to change to a different spec in order to keep playing it that way? It doesn't make sense.
I guess what I'm getting at is that you're saying your character options have diminished, but I find that to be untrue. Whether it be just expanding your thinking about Outlaw or taking the plunge to learn the other specs, you can still play every character archetype you used to be able to.
Good riddance to insight and killmespree.

Outlaw is funner than combat ever was.
I've been playing ever since BC, so I'm not quite as "experienced" as those who have been around since the absolute beginning, but I can say this. Towards the end of every expansion, I tend to get tired of mindlessly running daily quests and the same old dungeons over an over again. the mind-numbing repetition begins to drag on my attention span and will cause me to skip being online for days and even weeks at a time. (which is why I'm not as geared as I could be)

While thus far, I'm not a huge fan of the "pirate" role play idea, there will be a time when I'll dig deep, channel my best Johnny Depp as Captain Jack Sparrow, and dive into the Outlaw spec. While things at first appear to be fundamentally flawed, I will hold off final judgement until I am at level 110 and have all the new bells and whistles to play.

Who knows, we may be surprised, despite our current feeling of MEH.
07/28/2016 11:50 PMPosted by Junivogel
I could NOT be more disappointed with the changes to my class. I have ONE character that I play on WOW and that was a combat rogue. I get back from comic con where I attended the Legion panel and everything, where the focus was all on artifacts and demon hunters, and the only character I have has been striped down so thoroughly, my specialization gone, that no artifact is going to make it exciting to play my rogue again.

I understand that the creators wanted to define the specializations more concretely. However, even the attempt at forging the "outlaw" spec seems lackluster. The defining factor for that spec seems to be the reintroduction of the rogue ranged play (something I actually wanted when I first chose rogue years ago), but there are only 2 or 3 attacks that are geared towards this, very basic ones I should add, and there is no appeal for it since you don't even acquire interesting weaponry, just push a button.

I've lost most of my attacks in whichever spec I use because they narrowed them down so much, which makes my rogue just plain... boring, I am so saddened to say. I can't keep extended ambush, killing spree, poisons, and stealth attacks, and there are no real new abilities that make up for the dividing of the old ones. In fact, stealth is not even the exciting ability it was anymore, with there barely being any options for attacks under it, even with subtlety. What's the point in being a rogue without stealth, when you could just go fight as a warrior or paladin? I can no longer blanket a team in stealth, or use a smokescreen, and I cannot understand why ambush couldn't easily be utilized by every spec?

I am just so disappointed by what has been done to this class, and I can only hope something changes before the expansion hits or I don't know what I'm playing anymore.


go assassination tons more damage,easy to play out law rogue hasnt been tuned yet so it will get nerfs by the time legion launches.assassination and sub have already been tuned.
07/29/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Sepcemia
I RP as well and I understand the desire to have options, but the only thing that made Combat different from the other specs, from an RP perspective, before was wielding larger weapons. You weren't better able to fight toe-to-toe and you didn't fight dirtier than the other rogues.
I don't understand your attachment to poisons. They weren't interesting or unique. I'm frankly glad they're gone for Outlaw.
I too played exclusively Combat on my rogue from when I made him in the end of BC until I started over new on a new account here at the end of WoD. I always played him as more of a highwayman rather than a pirate, but Outlaw still fits this except for a few ability names which can easily be ignored in RP.
Your aversion to using the other 2 specs in order to expand your character archetype options also puzzles me. I've never felt the need to do this because Combat has always filled my rogues archetypal desires, but if you want to play your character a certain way then why aren't you willing to change to a different spec in order to keep playing it that way? It doesn't make sense.
I guess what I'm getting at is that you're saying your character options have diminished, but I find that to be untrue. Whether it be just expanding your thinking about Outlaw or taking the plunge to learn the other specs, you can still play every character archetype you used to be able to.

I wasn't in love with the gameplay regarding poisons, I just think that's a simple option that isn't really necessary to take away. Rogues in general are supposed to be the highwaymen, they are supposed to be stealthy, crafty, utilize poisons and tricks, and now I have to pick one thing or the other. Where's the leg up on other classes? If I wanted to just fight melee, I would pick warrior or paladin, if I wanted to fight ranged, I would pick hunter, because all of those classes are better for those specific fighting styles. The draw to rogue is that we can fight with the added bonus of doing it in stealth or with manipulations in our favor like poisons and tricks. Now the only draw to rogue seems to be if you want to play a gimmick, and you get three options: hitman, ninja, or pirate. What kind of roleplaying is that? No other class seems to be so pigeonholed.
And I DID make the other specs as well in light of this whole outlaw change. Whichever spec you pick now, you are losing out on elements that were once integral and givens as being a rogue.
I guess I just disagree about the pigeonholing. I don't think we've lost anything significant to character building, but you clearly disagree.
Best of luck and hope you find something worthwhile to keep you interested in the class.
07/29/2016 11:43 AMPosted by Gurdee
I've been playing ever since BC, so I'm not quite as "experienced" as those who have been around since the absolute beginning, but I can say this. Towards the end of every expansion, I tend to get tired of mindlessly running daily quests and the same old dungeons over an over again. the mind-numbing repetition begins to drag on my attention span and will cause me to skip being online for days and even weeks at a time. (which is why I'm not as geared as I could be)

While thus far, I'm not a huge fan of the "pirate" role play idea, there will be a time when I'll dig deep, channel my best Johnny Depp as Captain Jack Sparrow, and dive into the Outlaw spec. While things at first appear to be fundamentally flawed, I will hold off final judgement until I am at level 110 and have all the new bells and whistles to play.

Who knows, we may be surprised, despite our current feeling of MEH.


You are more optimistic than I am for sure. Based on the fact that there are only one or two more talents to round out my spec, I don't think they'll be enough change to make outlaw enjoyable as a rogue class rather than a gimmick. But of course I'll keep playing, I don't have much choice in the matter short of abandoning my only character.
07/29/2016 11:59 AMPosted by Sepcemia
I guess I just disagree about the pigeonholing. I don't think we've lost anything significant to character building, but you clearly disagree.
Best of luck and hope you find something worthwhile to keep you interested in the class.


Thank you. I'm certainly going to try.
07/29/2016 11:47 AMPosted by Lusent
07/28/2016 11:50 PMPosted by Junivogel
I could NOT be more disappointed with the changes to my class. I have ONE character that I play on WOW and that was a combat rogue. I get back from comic con where I attended the Legion panel and everything, where the focus was all on artifacts and demon hunters, and the only character I have has been striped down so thoroughly, my specialization gone, that no artifact is going to make it exciting to play my rogue again.

I understand that the creators wanted to define the specializations more concretely. However, even the attempt at forging the "outlaw" spec seems lackluster. The defining factor for that spec seems to be the reintroduction of the rogue ranged play (something I actually wanted when I first chose rogue years ago), but there are only 2 or 3 attacks that are geared towards this, very basic ones I should add, and there is no appeal for it since you don't even acquire interesting weaponry, just push a button.

I've lost most of my attacks in whichever spec I use because they narrowed them down so much, which makes my rogue just plain... boring, I am so saddened to say. I can't keep extended ambush, killing spree, poisons, and stealth attacks, and there are no real new abilities that make up for the dividing of the old ones. In fact, stealth is not even the exciting ability it was anymore, with there barely being any options for attacks under it, even with subtlety. What's the point in being a rogue without stealth, when you could just go fight as a warrior or paladin? I can no longer blanket a team in stealth, or use a smokescreen, and I cannot understand why ambush couldn't easily be utilized by every spec?

I am just so disappointed by what has been done to this class, and I can only hope something changes before the expansion hits or I don't know what I'm playing anymore.


go assassination tons more damage,easy to play out law rogue hasnt been tuned yet so it will get nerfs by the time legion launches.assassination and sub have already been tuned.


that explains a lot.......my new out law is getting killed way to fast in PvP

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