Sylvanas....

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-The Alliance heard the Horde retreat signal at the same time the Horde did so had the exact same amount of time to retreat.
-The Horde leaving didn't hurt the Alliance at all, a Fel Reaver did.
-The Alliance airship could see how incredibly screwed the Horde were right before the retreat, probably should have told Varian/Genn.
Just going to throw this out there, but I really really REALLY
liked Sylvanas's approach to being Warchief. It looks like she's struggling with the reality of it, and in the end she stomachs her new role the way she knows best how: "Let's avenge him." Not a motivated speech about idealism or Azeroth, just vengeance. It's appropriate for her. It shows that her character is still dark. Yet this time, instead of claiming vengeance for herself, she's claiming vengeance for someone she respected. It's a good first step on the path to redemption, imo, yet is not a unbelevable step for her.

There are other things I want to point out, but it's hard to type on a phone.
08/09/2016 01:03 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
The Alliance airship could see how incredibly screwed the Horde were right before the retreat, probably should have told Varian/Genn.

Considering Geblin actually called the airship in for the bombardment, that means they had open communication. So there is no excuse.
It's not about timing, it's about the situation. From a strategic point of view, the Alliance was in the "vulnerable" position and they were depending on the support of the Horde. From their perspective, right when they needed them, the Horde pulled out and left them exposed.

The practical implications of what this actually did are less important than the sentiment, particularly when you're angry and looking to direct it at somebody. And it's not like Sylvanas isn't an easy person to hate for either Genn (especially Genn), Jaina, or the Alliance as a whole.

I hope that the situation can be cleared up, but that won't exactly cure what is really at the heart of Genn's issue with her.
I hate to play this game, but it's still true so I'll say it.

If their situations had been reversed, if the Alliance were the ones protecting the flank and getting demolished on that ridge, would they have done the same thing?

Most certainly, and also Sylvanas would have certainly seen them withdraw and probably arrived at the same conclusion as Genn did. They were abandoned.

The point is that we can play this moral merry-go-round until our legs give out, but there really is no high ground to be had. Anyone would have left to save what few forces they had. In the end losses on both sides with perspective faciton leaders and a crapload of troops were probably on the equal.

All that's left is ridiculous finger pointing.
08/09/2016 12:52 PMPosted by Orionii
08/09/2016 12:40 PMPosted by Saityx
...

well considering that the Alliance posters almost never takes the horde vision into account,now we have the same argument in the forums, you guys know what happened and you cannot blame sylvanas this time, she was a true leader and hold as much as she could. she will be a fine warchief!


I frequently do, in fact, many of the Horde's more egregious wrongs come only from their side.

For example: the Assassination of Galen Trollbane.


You mean the regicide who murdered his father so he could gain power?
08/09/2016 01:15 PMPosted by Engoth
It's not about timing, it's about the situation. From a strategic point of view, the Alliance was in the "vulnerable" position and they were depending on the support of the Horde.


No they weren't. The Alliance had their flank covered. The Forsaken were the ones being attacked from two directions because they had an open flank as a result of covering the Alliance. They could only hold for so long and Sylvanas told Varian to hurry up. He decided to call down a major air strike (something he could have done at any time) only after the Horde was almost entirely done for. The Horde retreating merely put the Alliance in the same vulnerable position that Horde had been occupying the entire time.
Also, as a side note, I feel that Vol'jin saying "Not all will understand" is the writers directly addressing the fanbase.
08/09/2016 01:03 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
-The Alliance heard the Horde retreat signal at the same time the Horde did so had the exact same amount of time to retreat.

[/quote]

You keep saying this but the fact remains that the Alliance was ready to FIGHT. Hearing the Horde raise a retreat would be jarring to morale, it would be completely antithetical to the purpose of the Broken Shore.

Sylvanas is 100% in the wrong. She is a coward.
How are the orcs actually going along with her? What happened to "victory or death"?
08/09/2016 01:41 PMPosted by Samariyu
Also, as a side note, I feel that Vol'jin saying "Not all will understand" is the writers directly addressing the fanbase.


Like I mentioned in another thread, the "loa" he talked about must've been Kosak going "heh wouldn't it be cool if Sylvanas was Warchief"
08/09/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Scryll
08/09/2016 01:15 PMPosted by Engoth
It's not about timing, it's about the situation. From a strategic point of view, the Alliance was in the "vulnerable" position and they were depending on the support of the Horde.


No they weren't.

With all due respect, the Alliance was sent to do the main objective, face down Gul'dan and ultimately every demon raid boss we've ever seen, while the Horde covered the flank and, apparently, kept the skies clear so that they could accomplish this. It's not a stretch to say that the Alliance was in the vulnerable position; it's exactly why Sylv was able to just beat a quick retreat while the Alliance got snared by Gul'dan despite having the "same amount of warning" to retreat.

But again, I'm not saying the Alliance is on a total moral high ground here or that Sylvanas was out of line pulling back. Just that the Ally point of view, combined with past history, makes the reaction by Genn and Jaina understandable.
08/09/2016 01:43 PMPosted by Mordahn
You keep saying this but the fact remains that the Alliance was ready to FIGHT. Hearing the Horde raise a retreat would be jarring to morale, it would be completely antithetical to the purpose of the Broken Shore.

Sylvanas is 100% in the wrong. She is a coward.

Like I said. Fingerpointing.

The Alliance was ready to fight? The Horde DID fight, and lost, so Sylvanas did what any one of the Alliance commanders would have done to save what was left and leave.

08/09/2016 01:49 PMPosted by Engoth
But again, I'm not saying the Alliance is on a total moral high ground here or that Sylvanas was out of line pulling back. Just that the Ally point of view, combined with past history, makes the reaction by Genn and Jaina understandable.

Understandable, yes, but still wrong.
08/09/2016 01:43 PMPosted by Reignac
How are the orcs actually going along with her? What happened to "victory or death"?


nah bruh, you don't understand bruh

any military tactician retreats the moment anything gets grim

orcs think good. they know the saying is actually "Death or injury, please whatever you do don't kill me!"
My bigger issue, far more so than Sylvanas's retreat, is the way she became Warchief. The loa told Vol'jin to do it? Really? Let's kick his fans a bit more why don't we, it's not like we didn't get enough of that when he died without doing anything with the job.
08/09/2016 02:05 PMPosted by Reignac
My bigger issue, far more so than Sylvanas's retreat, is the way she became Warchief. The loa told Vol'jin to do it? Really? Let's kick his fans a bit more why don't we, it's not like we didn't get enough of that when he died without doing anything with the job.


"What do you mean you guys don't have playable Troll lore? The Troll gods made Sylvanas Warchief!"
08/09/2016 02:05 PMPosted by Reignac
My bigger issue, far more so than Sylvanas's retreat, is the way she became Warchief. The loa told Vol'jin to do it? Really? Let's kick his fans a bit more why don't we, it's not like we didn't get enough of that when he died without doing anything with the job.


08/09/2016 02:05 PMPosted by Reignac
My bigger issue, far more so than Sylvanas's retreat, is the way she became Warchief. The loa told Vol'jin to do it? Really? Let's kick his fans a bit more why don't we, it's not like we didn't get enough of that when he died without doing anything with the job.


Not all will understand.
Sylvanas didn't do anything wrong. The part of the operation that she was in charge of - the archers who were clearing the sky of demons was going fine. She sounded the retreat under the direct orders of her superior.

Now the rest of the Horde......I mean seriously? What is with Blizzard writing the Horde and Vol'jin specifically as militarily incompetent? Vol'jin's job was to keep the demons off Sylvanas' back while she cleared the demons from the air. He was occupying higher ground against the demons. He should have literally been able to hold that position by rolling boulders down the hill at the advancing demons (Seriously, Thrall - where was some handy Earth elemental magic?).

This coming hard on the heels of Vol'jin's star turn at the Siege of Orgrimmar where he ignored his primary mission of taking the docks and engaged in the brilliant tactical maneuver of trying to defeat the Iron Juggernaut by clogging up its mechanism with troll guts.

The main benefit to Azeroth of the Broken Shore is that the Horde will finally have competent military command.
What I find most fun about the Broken Shore is that Varian out-Horded the Horde. He goes down with a pile of his enemies' bodies at his feet (including a Mega Fel Reaver that he soloed) and spitting defiance at the enemy commander. While the Horde...runs away.

Which of the two factions had the proud warrior tradition, again?

08/09/2016 02:09 PMPosted by Myalison
The main benefit to Azeroth of the Broken Shore is that the Horde will finally have competent military command.


Wait, I thought Sylvanas was going to be warchief?
08/09/2016 02:22 PMPosted by Kelrexia
What I find most fun about the Broken Shore is that Varian out-Horded the Horde. He goes down with a pile of his enemies' bodies at his feet (including a Mega Fel Reaver that he soloed) and spitting defiance at the enemy commander. While the Horde...runs away.

Which of the two factions had the proud warrior tradition, again?


OKAY YEAH VARIAN MIGHT HAVE KILLED A GIANT SUPER FELREAVER AND SEVERAL DEMONS BY HIS LONESOME

BUT

PEOPLE MIGHT HAVE DIED IN A WAR. EVER CONSIDERED THAT?

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