Maximum camera distance - Legion 7.0.3 #10

General Discussion
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UPDATE: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748204616?page=8#post-147
Ion has replied to this post. TLDR: they are as expected killing Maxcam, but at the same time giving us a higher zoom cap halfway between the new and old cap.
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No way can I copy everything in the last thread without being able to quote it, so here's a link to it:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747915389?page=1
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This is a continuation post seeing as the first, second, third and fourth and fifth and sixth and seventh and eighth and ninth threads are now capped:

First thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747235182

Second thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747714824?page=1

Third thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747815002

Fourth thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747725237?page=1

Fifth Thread:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747735605?page=1

Sixth thread:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747685700?page=1

Seventh thread:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747616329?page=1

Eighth thread:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747816280?page=1

Ninth thread:
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20747915389?page=1

No, this is not a spam post. It is a continuation post. Please see this exception to the Code of Conduct concerning said exceptions:
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2191101521#1

Also, this post is also continuing from the previous continuation threads started by different OPs through copy and pasting & editing when new updates are made. If you are going to quote this, keep this in mind.

Reminder: Please no name calling, harassing, threats (real life), etc. on this thread that would violate the TOS / CoC as well as on Twitter and other social medias.

Feedback to the Devs & Customer Support on Twitter:
@Celestalon
@WatcherDev
@WarcraftDevs (Recommend everyone use this one first)
@BlizzardCS
@Muffinus

Primary Issue here is that on July 19, Patch 7.0 changed several things:

The maximum camera distance has been modified from 34.99 to a 28.5 on the in-game slider. The maximum value of 50 has been cut to 28.5 in regards to the command /console cameraDistanceMax <value>.

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Summary of the overall discussion from the beginning of the first thread until now:
-Blizzard's lack of response to these threads
-Blizzard's culpability for causing through the camera changes people who are prone to motion sickness/headaches/dizziness/ seizures to be triggered by these changes
-Blizzard's lack of logical reasoning behind the changes
-Blizzard's complete failure to properly justify these changes to the players and other items
-MaxCam add-on discussion, testing and results in terms of distance changes

As always, lets keep the discussion civil and going in front of blizzard's employee's so they know we have not stopped protesting these ridiculous changes.

1) Some relevant screen shots of the issue at hand.

http://puu.sh/q77Up/ef12eafc70.jpg
http://puu.sh/q77Bj/4b9ef58bbb.jpg
http://puu.sh/q792d/d4972abe46.jpg
http://imgur.com/a/vBQYO
http://i.imgur.com/sQVcynC.jpg

2) Links to the PTR/Beta threads:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747324616
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745014635#1

3) EU general forums discussion thread:

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/17612331418

4) Twitter Conversations from Watcher/Celestalon

Regarding Zoom:
https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/755829241011404800 (Part 1)
https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/755829504510230529 (Part 2)

Regarding ActionCam:
https://twitter.com/WatcherDev/status/758823227057594369

FoV Illustration / Issues:
https://twitter.com/Celestalon/status/755862845699395584

5) Thrahl's expanded and clarified FOV image:

http://imgur.com/a/vTGyn

6) MMO Champion Thread and Poll:

http://www.mmo-champion.com/content/5789-Legion-Max-Camera-Distance-Reduction

7) Link to Azurfel's 'fixes' for some of the settings other than camera distance:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747654593

8) Petition for revert the changes to the camera as posted by several other users:

https://www.change.org/p/mike-morhaime-keep-max-camera-distance-in-legion-and-beyond?recruiter=251290406&utm_source=petitions_share&utm_medium=copylink

9) A post by Thalei, a player who suffers from temporal lobe epilepsy who had a seizure while playing

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747714824?page=10#200
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747815002?page=1#8

10) YouTube Videos

Showing the new camera freaking out during Al'akir phase transition:

WARNING - Nausea/motion sickness. This video contains very rapid movement of the camera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5J7YgiLdaSY

NOTE: This is not the player rapidly moving the camera, as the gauntlet that represents the mouse cursor is visible, which if being held to move the camera it disappears.

By Brollgarth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oycy4wYwGgg - comparing the new 28.5 distance to the old 50 distance.

11) A post by Ravenblood, giving an excellent explanation of simulator sickness and some of its causes/symptoms

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747815002?page=23#451
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747815002?page=23#452

12) A post by Azraela about concerns regarding health

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745014635?page=15#295

13) A post by Azurfel about using letterboxing to help reduce nausea

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747865005

14) Other relevant threads on max camera distance that also capped about this topic.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745574703
http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20745644802

15) A post by Eochaidh which gives an excellent explanation of the problems of the new camera system.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747725237?page=7#137

16) A post by Yuutsu, about another camera command being broken or removed. Underwater/drunken haze effects.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/20747695411

17) A post by Keyimin showing how the world is in fact not designed around the new camera zoom.

http://imgur.com/a/dcJhQ

18) Blue Posts

June 25th, 2016 by Watcher on the capped Beta thread related directly to the camera distance (nearly a month before it hit the Live servers).
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745744692?page=1#18
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And a few words from me directly to Blizz:

I've used the max camera distance from the moment I found out about the CVAR. I found out about it in response to a direct need for increased zoom and it was a godsend. Contrary to what Watcher said I didn't simply start using it for competitive advantage and lose sight of how the game is actually played "better" at lower zoom levels. On the contrary I continued using the increased zoom because, having had a direct comparison between both options, I was 100% absolutely certain that the increase was of great benefit to me.

And on another note, not all of us play at the default toon size Watcher. Just something to consider.

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Relevant video: https://youtu.be/IjM3gOavkes?t=970

Watcher said the following: "I promise that we are going to do our very very best to not let any of you down"

If you're reading this Watcher, we're here to try and explain to you that you're letting us down right now. Making a mistake is forgivable. Not choosing to rectify that mistake not so much. There are a myriad of reasons why this change should have never happened. If you truly meant your promise to do your very best not to let us down, then we need to stop having to fight with you guys and get back to having FUN again.

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On feedback and toxicity:

By now the entire dev team, or at least several prominent members, consider me a hater who trashes them and their product because he enjoys it. This is probably a fair assessment at this point minus the enjoyment part, but it was not always so, and does not have to continue to be the case.

The long and short of it is I have a LOT of passion for this game, just like many of the posters in this thread I'm sure. We are here because we care. If we didn't, we'd have simply canceled outright and just gone elsewhere.

And here in lies the problem. The absolute worst thing in the world to do when someone brings you sincerely held concerns about something is allow them to come to the conclusion you are ignoring them. I would personally rather be subjected to a profanity laced rant from a dev than nothing. I'm dead serious here, although I'd hope for a more reasonable response to an inquiry.

The simple fact is it doesn't matter if the dev team spends hours agonizing over our concerns behind the scenes. It's totally irrelevant from the standpoint of our perception of how things are being handled. We see NONE of this. What we see is the last post on this subject, dated Aug 6th I believe. As far as I am concerned, this issue has received no attention since that date, as I have no way to know any different.

So by now many players have come to the well-reasoned if perhaps incorrect assumption we are being ignored, and not just on this issue. This has two serious implications. First, it degrades the quality of responses and feedback. Since people don't feel like it's being read anyway, why bother to make it constructive? Second, when word finally does come, people are so angry and cynical at that point they tend to attack the messenger.

The toxicity generated is directly proportionate to the amount of passion players have for an issue. The more they care, the more angry they become when their concerns are seemingly ignored. I'm a pretty extreme case, where my level of passion has been refereed to quite accurately as an obsession.

So yes, at this point I probably am a hater even if I've gone to great lengths to keep things civil in this particular message. But let me make one thing crystal clear here. My current attitude is a direct result of the process I described in the above paragraph. Caring deeply about something and having your concerns ignored over a prolonged period of time is maddening. Eventually it's impossible for that frustration to not boil over into animosity for the people ignoring you, whether they truly are or not.

The only way this is resolved is more communication. YES, saying "we're continuing to discuss this issue" is not only helpful, it is necessary. Mr. Feasel told me this would begin to feel disingenuous if they did it too often, which is why they don't. Well, I respectfully disagree. NOT doing it makes all the other times you say "we listen, we're reading it" feel disingenuous.

TLDR: we need more engagement from the team, especially on critical issues like this to avoid extreme cynicism and a complete deterioration of the relationship players have with the devs.
Blizzard is not going to change it back so if everyone would stop bringing it up, repost after repost we would all soon forget about it.
And all live like happy little gold fish in a bowl.
08/04/2016 11:36 AMPosted by Annihil
Blizzard is not going to change it back so if everyone would stop bringing it up, repost after repost we would all soon forget about it.
And all live like happy little gold fish in a bowl.

I'm going to keep posting, along with everyone else upset about this change until it is either reverted or they rewrite the forum rules and start locking ALL threads on this issue.
08/04/2016 11:36 AMPosted by Annihil
Blizzard is not going to change it back so if everyone would stop bringing it up, repost after repost we would all soon forget about it.
And all live like happy little gold fish in a bowl.

Then don't read it...? I'm sure there's lots of other threads in the General Discussion for you to look at instead.
Well... they haven't broken MaxCam yet, unless I missed that sometime between last night and now.

Perhaps they've decided to just quietly not break it and not ban people who were using it, and just sweep this whole thing under the rug?
08/04/2016 11:48 AMPosted by Annihil
08/04/2016 11:40 AMPosted by Alayea
...
Then don't read it...? I'm sure there's lots of other threads in the General Discussion for you to look at instead.


what a troll,

I was trying to make a point, Blizzard wants us to do everything their way and that is final. "And all live like happy little gold fish in a bowl"

Given the history of the threads, making some more blatant marker of sarcasm might be a good idea. /s or even a ;) can go a long way towards differentiating your post from an actual troll.
08/04/2016 11:48 AMPosted by Annihil


I was trying to make a point, Blizzard wants us to do everything their way and that is final. "And all live like happy little gold fish in a bowl"


That's not how it works though. People don't tend to forget about "Intensely unpopular" changes like this.

*The North Remembers!*
08/04/2016 11:31 AMPosted by Gigabear
-Blizzard's lack of response to these thread


Err, they aren't going to comment on these because they already said they aren't changing their minds lol. No reason to comment.

I feel they should bring it back to 34 and not 28 to compromise but don't bring back the console option.

08/04/2016 11:38 AMPosted by Gigabear
I'm going to keep posting, along with everyone else upset about this change until it is either reverted or they rewrite the forum rules and start locking ALL threads on this issue.


I mean, I'm going to do the same if they do revert it until they revert it again. So. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish.
08/04/2016 11:47 AMPosted by Layn
Well... they haven't broken MaxCam yet, unless I missed that sometime between last night and now.

Perhaps they've decided to just quietly not break it and not ban people who were using it, and just sweep this whole thing under the rug?


Yeah, I kind of figured it would have been toast by now.

Tin foil hat theory incoming, but maybe they're waiting until after Legion launches to fix the camera "bug". Let everyone who's affected by the annoying camera think the addon is going to survive so they all buy Legion if they haven't prepurchased yet, along with some sub time. Couple weeks in, fix the camera "bug" on the grounds of it being a bug.

Pretty simple. Scumbag and ruthless too, but who would be surprised?
I'm trying to forget about it I'm not having any luck. I do hate the camera being to tight and would love for it to be that way is used to be but I don't think Blizzard is going to give in.
08/04/2016 11:51 AMPosted by Noximas
08/04/2016 11:31 AMPosted by Gigabear
-Blizzard's lack of response to these thread


Err, they aren't going to comment on these because they already said they aren't changing their minds lol. No reason to comment.

I feel they should bring it back to 34 and not 28 to compromise but don't bring back the console option.

08/04/2016 11:38 AMPosted by Gigabear
I'm going to keep posting, along with everyone else upset about this change until it is either reverted or they rewrite the forum rules and start locking ALL threads on this issue.


I mean, I'm going to do the same if they do revert it until they revert it again. So. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish.


You seem to be quite aggressively dead set against a camera that zooms out further than the old 34, so I have a question for you:

If Blizzard were to introduce a new max camera distance of 50, through the use of the standard in game UI slider, so that everyone has easy visible access to it, and no one has a "competitive advantage", how would that negatively affect your personal gameplay experience?
08/04/2016 11:59 AMPosted by Prosmos
Just go download the god damn addon, and stop making these stupid threads.


We have?

The thing is, the general consensus on that is that Blizzard is going to fix the bug that the addon uses to nerf the addon back to the ground.

And since Blizzard won't actually communicate with us about what's going on, we're going to continue posting here, as we're allowed to do since they are in fact for game discussions.
08/04/2016 11:59 AMPosted by Prosmos
Just go download the god damn addon, and stop making these stupid threads.


All indications point to Blizzard eventually breaking the addon.
08/04/2016 11:51 AMPosted by Noximas


I mean, I'm going to do the same if they do revert it until they revert it again. So. Not sure what you're trying to accomplish.


You're free to do that, though I fail to see a motivation for doing so. You're not being harmed by this change apparently, nor would you be if it was reverted.
08/04/2016 11:59 AMPosted by Prosmos
Just go download the god damn addon, and stop making these stupid threads.
This is effectively the same thread. If Blizzard would extend the cap on one of these we wouldn't have to make a continuation.

The addon you mention appears to be a temporary fix. The addon author has claimed that the command it uses is in the works to be patched out by Blizzard. This makes the conversation here more relevant, not less so.
08/04/2016 11:53 AMPosted by Chazka
08/04/2016 11:47 AMPosted by Layn
Well... they haven't broken MaxCam yet, unless I missed that sometime between last night and now.

Perhaps they've decided to just quietly not break it and not ban people who were using it, and just sweep this whole thing under the rug?


Yeah, I kind of figured it would have been toast by now.

Tin foil hat theory incoming, but maybe they're waiting until after Legion launches to fix the camera "bug". Let everyone who's affected by the annoying camera think the addon is going to survive so they all buy Legion if they haven't prepurchased yet, along with some sub time. Couple weeks in, fix the camera "bug" on the grounds of it being a bug.

Pretty simple. Scumbag and ruthless too, but who would be surprised?


I have another tin foil hat thought for you brought up by one of my guildies who is more technically inclined than I am, but wants to see the camera reverted:

He noticed since installing MaxCam there were more sections of missing terrain when zoomed out than before the patch. He posited that this could have something to do with the updated graphics enigine recently (not the changed at WoD, something more recent). He also hypothesized that when Blizz started noticing the new amount of missing terrain, rather than trying to fix it, they determined the cam distance needed to hide the missing terrain instead.

This makes a lot of sense to me and can explain a few things:

1. Why the decision was done so quickly.
2. Why they didn't seek feedback or respond to the complaints.
3. Why it's been billed as an artistic decision.
4. Why they actual moved the default max from 34.99 to 28.5
5. Why the few responses have been to deflect the cam distance into other camera issues being the cause.

Keep in mid please, that this is only a hypothesis.
The bug's already been fixed internally, we just haven't had it pushed it via a hot fix yet. We are waiting on the axe to fall at this stage.

I can understand if you want to downvote this , I don't mind.
08/04/2016 11:53 AMPosted by Chazka
Yeah, I kind of figured it would have been toast by now.

If the bug has been in game as long as people say it has it might be fairly difficult to squash without breaking other things with worse effects.

I also doubt they would ban anyone for using it since the addon abides by the ToS in how it works and they haven't banned people for using other squished addons in the past. AVG just went away with a patch no one who used it got a ban for it. My hope is that its popularity causes the developers to reconsider their position.

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