Maximum camera distance - Legion 7.0.3 #10

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08/04/2016 07:00 PMPosted by Arbs
I remember people saying somewhere 38 - 42 is a solid middle ground. Either way this is good for those who have been hit hard from the camera changes.


This is pretty much the ideal distance. 50 is way too far.
I am not 100% jumping on the bandwagon of "we won" yet...All I ask for is 40 yards.....40 yards and I can play again (not 100% great but good enough)
08/04/2016 07:02 PMPosted by Hipzilywik
Is there any clarification as to why it's still going to be a console command though? Why not just make the in-game slider go to the max cvar?


This:

Ultimately, we would prefer to address the underlying issues rather than relying on increased zoom to mask those issues, but now that patch 7.0.3 is live and we cannot properly iterate on the sort of changes that would be required, reapplying the band-aid is preferable to leaving an open wound

hints at them still intending to implement the current changes at a later date when they can get the bugs out affecting peoples health.
So I take the blue post as meaning they're just going to revert the entire camera back to how it was before the 7.0 changes. Am I right or wrong?

This increased cap will allow power users to once again be able to extend their camera distance via a console command, should they so desire.


So should I take this as the console command will once again increase it to 50 yards? And what will that console command be? The same one?

Some actual clarification would be appreciated.
Are you serious?

Like really?

Im sorry, but this is bull!@#$ and we all know it.

There doesnt need to be a "middle ground". The change never should have been made, and this "fix" is going back to the same exact way it was before, just with less distance. You said it being a console command and only being known by those who went out and searched for it gave people an advantage, so why not just make it accessible in the interface?

I know you guys have a hard time just owning up to things and saying " Hey guys, we made a mistake. "

You try and force us to deal with "good enough's", rather than just fixing %^-* properly.

This change and the change in 7.0 will never make sense to me. Some day I hope you guys can realize that you're doing more damage to your reputation by doing !@#$ like this than you would if you just said " Oops, we %^-*ed up".

08/04/2016 07:13 PMPosted by Dkbenefitz
So I take the blue post as meaning they're just going to revert the entire camera back to how it was before the 7.0 changes. Am I right or wrong?

This increased cap will allow power users to once again be able to extend their camera distance via a console command, should they so desire.


So should I take this as the console command will once again increase it to 50 yards? And what will that console command be? The same one?

Some actual clarification would be appreciated.


Wrong. It will be a console command like before, but it wont be to 50 yards. It will be a "halfway point" between 50 yards, and what it is currently ( whatever that is ).
08/04/2016 06:31 PMPosted by Watcher
However, in that same hotfix, we will also be raising the hard cap on camera zoom to a midway point between what was possible prior to 7.0, and what is possible through the in-game interface options.


So what zoom level will this be exactly?

Will it be the max level of the slider as it was in 6.2.4?

Will it be halfway between the max level of the slider in 6.2.4 and the "intended" max level of the slider in 7.0.3?

This post is not clear without more information, preferably numerical information.
I don't mind them implementing other changes too, but refusing us the ability to zoom out to at least 50 is a little silly. It harms no one, while a multitude of people prefer to play/are comfortable at that distance.
08/04/2016 06:57 PMPosted by Sham
08/04/2016 06:31 PMPosted by Watcher
However, in that same hotfix, we will also be raising the hard cap on camera zoom to a midway point between what was possible prior to 7.0, and what is possible through the in-game interface options. This increased cap will allow power users to once again be able to extend their camera distance via a console command, should they so desire. The choice of the new max was informed by reports from players regarding what zoom distance eased the discomfort they were experiencing. Ultimately, we would prefer to address the underlying issues rather than relying on increased zoom to mask those issues, but now that patch 7.0.3 is live and we cannot properly iterate on the sort of changes that would be required, reapplying the band-aid is preferable to leaving an open wound.


I am glad they are finally acknowledging the issues raiders were having as well, I'm anxiously waiting for this hotfix to see the "new" max camera distance. I never actually used the old max so this compromise may be perfect.

However, I am unhappy we had to make a compromise at all, I still stand by the fact that adjusting the camera like that is just dictating how you think we should enjoy the game. If one person enjoys the game more being super zoomed out, I don't see why we shouldn't allow them to do so.

Either way, thanks for the update, I'm excited to see where this goes.


Compromise? Really? It's so arrogant that they think they were correct in reducing max cam dist in the first place. It's that arrogance that makes them believe that a compromise is justified. You are wrong Ion, because max 50 was fine for everyone for over a decade. Don't fix what is not broken! I'm still upset with their 'we know better than you do what you want' attitude.

I for one, will not pre-purchase or purchase after launch, until they fix this.

WoD's has taught me and I'm sure many thousands of others that you can NOT trust what Watcher and his devs say and do. They have broken their word far too many times. As a result, lost millions of subs in WoD. I don't see Legion starting out any different.

I can wait. I'll play WoD, and wait for the dust to settle. When they give me flying in Legion, hopefully these and other technical issues will have been resolved to my liking. Then I'll buy.

Blizzard, You have not lost me completely during the WoD debacle. I will buy Legion if you.. Can I say 'when you'?.. If you give me the aspects of the game that have been a part of Warcraft for over a decade. Please stop 'fixing' things that are not broken.
08/04/2016 06:31 PMPosted by Watcher
In the course of working on Legion, and trying to improve the overall look and feel of our combat, class abilities, and the ways in which players interact with the world, we took stock of all aspects of that experience, including the camera. World of Warcraft is an avatar-driven open-world RPG, placing the player in the shoes of a hero who adventures throughout Azeroth, yet with the previous max console zoom, that hero would commonly take up less screen real estate than characters in isometric games like Diablo or Heroes, or even many Starcraft 2 units. At that zoom level, details of your character get lost, and details in the world vanish. The game ultimately is designed to be experienced with the camera zoom range available in the default UI.

Now, that is not to say that we don’t at times fail in creating an overall experience that is smooth and free of frustration at those zoom levels.

I, personally, prefer to play at a rather close zoom, but some of your bosses make it impossible at even a far zoom. If you don't want us to feel we have to zoom out to the moon, smaller bosses would help.

Giant things that are standing or floating beside our platform are fine (Deathwing/Gorefiend/Kromog/etc..), but bosses like Archi and Mannoroth stomping around are just too much. Yea, they should be epic, but their epic size budget could comfortably afford to lose 50% lol.
08/04/2016 06:58 PMPosted by Yokogon
Thank you for this compromise, can we possibly have the ability to turn off the death glow (black and white) as it has caused headaches and eye strain for people as well?


I have a feeling the reason for this change has to do with the game changing from DX9 to DX11. I should pop in and check that.
Can you set the new max to like 40.
08/04/2016 07:14 PMPosted by Pixul
There doesnt need to be a "middle ground". The change never should have been made, and this "fix" is going back to the same exact way it was before, just with less distance. You said it being a console command and only being known by those who went out and searched for it gave people an advantage, so why not just make it accessible in the interface?

Ultimately, even though my earlier post was mostly conciliatory, I still think this sums up how I feel.
08/04/2016 06:31 PMPosted by Watcher
We look forward to hearing your feedback once these changes are live. We want to continue working to improve the readability, usability, and accessibility of our game from a visual standpoint, including camera functionality, and community feedback and discussion are invaluable when dealing with such an inherently subjective area.


Thank you for responding Watcher, it is really appreciated to start having a dialogue on this topic, as many of us out here feel passionate about this topic.

I cannot speak for the crowd in terms of motion sickness et al. since that doesn't affect me. I did however, join this discussion because of the practicality of having a little further zoomed out camera as a tank and a raid leader.

When not raiding, my friends and I do zoom in to look at the details and notice the little things from the distances that you really want us to see the world from, so we don't want your art team to move away from that aspect of course, because it is still appreciated at the proper times for us.

When you’re trying to dodge Fel Outpouring waves on Kormrok in Hellfire Citadel, the farther out you can zoom, the sooner you can see when they’re headed your way; why wouldn’t you zoom out as far as possible? (Corollary: Around what expected zoom level do we tune the speed and lethality of the waves?)


Sorry for pulling this piece out of the context, but I want to highlight it for a positive reason (I think). From a raiding perspective, we naturally will zoom out as far as we can because we want to handle mechanics and/or work together to call out mechanics for each other, that's how you succeed. By tuning the mechanics based around a tighter camera setting, I feel that you start limiting both the difficulty to which you tune bosses and develop mechanics.

We don't want that to happen either, some of the lasting draw of this game over the years has been the variety of mechanics and difficulties the team has introduced and narrowing that scope with the camera distance would be detrimental.
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I am glad they are finally acknowledging the issues raiders were having as well, I'm anxiously waiting for this hotfix to see the "new" max camera distance. I never actually used the old max so this compromise may be perfect.

However, I am unhappy we had to make a compromise at all, I still stand by the fact that adjusting the camera like that is just dictating how you think we should enjoy the game. If one person enjoys the game more being super zoomed out, I don't see why we shouldn't allow them to do so.

Either way, thanks for the update, I'm excited to see where this goes.


Compromise? Really? It's so arrogant that they think they were correct in reducing max cam dist in the first place. It's that arrogance that makes them believe that a compromise is justified. You are wrong Ion, because max 50 was fine for everyone for over a decade. Don't fix what is not broken! I'm still upset with their 'we know better than you do what you want' attitude.

I for one, will not pre-purchase or purchase after launch, until they fix this.

WoD's has taught me and I'm sure many thousands of others that you can NOT trust what Watcher and his devs say and do. They have broken their word far too many times. As a result, lost millions of subs in WoD. I don't see Legion starting out any different.

I can wait. I'll play WoD, and wait for the dust to settle. When they give me flying in Legion, hopefully these and other technical issues will have been resolved to my liking. Then I'll buy.

Blizzard, You have not lost me completely during the WoD debacle. I will buy Legion if you.. Can I say 'when you'?.. If you give me the aspects of the game that have been a part of Warcraft for over a decade. Please stop 'fixing' things that are not broken.

Honestly, Watcher's recent post makes me feel that he's seeking revenge on us because he failed his interview with the Skyrim team. Or the Dragon Age team. World of Warcraft is a completely different game than the games he's describing to justify the shortened camera zoom. So apparently since he failed his interview with them, he's trying to turn WoW into them.

He seems convinced that people play at the same zoom distance constantly.
08/04/2016 07:11 PMPosted by Seiryu
08/04/2016 07:00 PMPosted by Arbs
I remember people saying somewhere 38 - 42 is a solid middle ground. Either way this is good for those who have been hit hard from the camera changes.


This is pretty much the ideal distance. 50 is way too far.


They won't give 50 anyways.

They said somewhere in the middle. And I'm getting a little irritated at people refusing to accept compromise.

08/04/2016 07:14 PMPosted by Pixul
There doesnt need to be a "middle ground".


Yes, there does.

They have an ideal for the way the game is envisioned and seen. The camera changes were likely made with that in mind.

They're being considerate enough to want to figure out what's making people ill and realize said vision, and yet people still are trying to tell THEM what to do with THEIR game, without even seeing what they want to try first.

08/04/2016 07:15 PMPosted by Falcorn
Compromise? Really? It's so arrogant that they think they were correct in reducing max cam dist in the first place. It's that arrogance that makes them believe that a compromise is justified. You are wrong Ion, because max 50 was fine for everyone for over a decade. Don't fix what is not broken! I'm still upset with their 'we know better than you do what you want' attitude.


What's arrogance is you thinking you know what's best for someone else's art project.

What's arrogance is you taking their offer at a compromise, spitting on it and throwing it to the ground and throwing a tantrum like a baby.

This is THEIR game, and they can do whatever they want with it. Not only that, but it's no longer their primary cash cow. Subs bleeding will hurt them less than you think.

It's attitudes like yours that make companies no longer want to try to work for solutions to problems. Can't try anything new, or work the kinks out of it! The nerve! A company wants to do something with it's own property.
Just put the old full max on the slider and let people decide for themselves what zoom they want to play on, stop trying to force it on everyone.
Just one more comment and then I'm going to step away for a bit and digest.

If you miss a major change in early development and the rest of development is tested without that change in place you do not implement that major change at the end of the development cycle when there is not adequate time to test the change's impact on every aspect impacted (for camera changes this would be everything in the game).

Blizzard should be better than to make such an amateurish mistake.
@Watcher, why the hell you still call it a "bandaid fix"? It is a choice, which is completely up to the players who want to zoom out as far as they wish or not( ofc cvar 50 should be the hardcap)
08/04/2016 07:26 PMPosted by Bearing
What's arrogance is you thinking you know what's best for someone else's art project.

Pretty sure this is a video game that people pay money for. Not some high school student's art project.

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