The Broken Shore - Nobody's fault.

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If only the Horde had some sort of massive flying gunship armed to the teeth to help them hold the ridge. If only someone had thought to bring one of those things to the Broken Shore.

I'm sure if the Alliance had such a thing laying around, capable of raining fiery death upon the Legion with ease, they would have said something.
08/09/2016 07:49 PMPosted by Kelrexia
I'm perfectly willing to admit that the Horde did nothing wrong at the Broken Shore.

However, I am also perfectly willing to be a smug, insufferable !@#$% -- possibly with preening noises -- about how awesome Varian's death was.

I agree with both of these statements, so go right ahead. I'll even join, because... well, it was really awesome.

Though I do also really like Sylvanas's takeover cinematic.
Though I do also really like Sylvanas's takeover cinematic.


Yup, that was really well done. Especially the last scene.
08/09/2016 09:09 PMPosted by Enenra
If only the Horde had some sort of massive flying gunship armed to the teeth to help them hold the ridge. If only someone had thought to bring one of those things to the Broken Shore.

I'm sure if the Alliance had such a thing laying around, capable of raining fiery death upon the Legion with ease, they would have said something.


Maybe Sylvanas should have said "Hey Varian we're being overwhelmed up here!" instead of getting snippy with him and his anime dialogue moment with Gul'dan.
Trying to hold the ridge wouldn't have changed the outcome. Imagine all the Alliance forces are still on the ground when Gul'dan called down the giant Fel Reaver. They all would have died. You can see in Sylvanas' face and language that she didn't want to retreat but had no choice especially with Vol'jins order to save the horde.
Trying to hold the ridge wouldn't have changed the outcome. Imagine all the Alliance forces are still on the ground when Gul'dan called down the giant Fel Reaver. They all would have died. You can see in Sylvanas' face and language that she didn't want to retreat but had no choice especially with Vol'jins order to save the horde.


Okay imagine that Varian killed Gul'dan before he could summon the giant fel reaver (which he killed single handedly anyway). See, what I said is just as valid as what you said because neither of those things actually happen in the game, and the outcome could have literally been anything the writers wanted to choose.

If Broxxigar can kill a bajillion demons and scratch Sargeras by himself, why can't Varian? Oh right, because the writers decide he can't.

You're arguing this as if it's a real world situation.
Given that the Horde forces were being routed so badly, it makes complete sense for them to retreat, at least from a personal standpoint. Whether or not the Alliance forces could have carried the day if they hadn't had to worry about then fighting the Horde's share of the Legion, in addition to their own, is purely a matter of writer choice.

What gets me is, why was the Horde routed so easily, but then, managed to escape so apparently effortlessly?
08/09/2016 09:35 PMPosted by Anawne
Trying to hold the ridge wouldn't have changed the outcome. Imagine all the Alliance forces are still on the ground when Gul'dan called down the giant Fel Reaver. They all would have died. You can see in Sylvanas' face and language that she didn't want to retreat but had no choice especially with Vol'jins order to save the horde.


Okay imagine that Varian killed Gul'dan before he could summon the giant fel reaver (which he killed single handedly anyway). See, what I said is just as valid as what you said because neither of those things actually happen in the game, and the outcome could have literally been anything the writers wanted to choose.

If Broxxigar can kill a bajillion demons and scratch Sargeras by himself, why can't Varian? Oh right, because the writers decide he can't.

You're arguing this as if it's a real world situation.


A. Varian only killed the mega reaver because the Zeppelin let him reach the head, and he had momentum.

B. For someone who's been visiting multiple threads to trash talk Horde characters nonstop, it's a little late to pull the "none of this really matters" card. But fine, whatever gives you the illusion of moral high ground, I guess.

C. Point is, it would not have mattered if the Horde held their ground and died and you full well know it.
A. Varian only killed the mega reaver because the Zeppelin let him reach the head, and he had momentum.


No, he did it because the writers wrote that scene.

B. For someone who's been visiting multiple threads to trash talk Horde characters nonstop, it's a little late to pull the "none of this really matters" card. But fine, whatever gives you the illusion of moral high ground, I guess.


I've always held that nothing posted here matters. In one of my first posts after I completed the scenario on both sides I believe I said to you, or someone else, that Blizzard abandoned this forums years ago so nothing said here really counts for anything.

Also I only trashtalked Sylvanas, and to a lesser extent Vol'jin and Thrall, but only in a banter sort of way. I never said anything about the Horde. Because this isn't about the Horde. It's about Sylvanas, and her being a coward.

C. Point is, it would not have mattered if the Horde held their ground and died and you full well know it.


Neither of us really know that because the writers could have written it differently. Instead they wrote Sylvanas as a coward and Varian as a badass with a badass sacrifice.
Ultimately, none of this really matters. The Alliance agreed to get over what the Horde did to it and work with it only to be let down as the Horde was unable to hold its position and cover the push towards the Tomb. As a result, the king of Stormwind died covering his gunship's rushed retreat. The Alliance has its reasons to go after the Horde from its perspective as it cannot consider the Horde to be a reliable ally anymore.

The Horde tried and failed. It has to live with the fact that it let down the Alliance in a moment of need and that getting back its trust will be difficult.
08/09/2016 09:55 PMPosted by Cobble
As a result, the king of Stormwind died covering his gunship's rushed retreat.

Whereas the Alliance would have been perfectly fine had the Fel Reaver landed behind its lines making retreat completely impossible, yes?

I see, I see.

Now, I believe you were saying something about selling me the Brooklyn Bridge?
Even if they managed to kill Gul'dan they would have the portal to the twisting nether still open. The Legion's open door to Azeroth. Without the pillars of creation it could never be sealed the demons would have just kept coming. Attrition is not on our side in the war with the Legion.
08/09/2016 09:58 PMPosted by Kellick
Whereas the Alliance would have been perfectly fine had the Fel Reaver landed behind its lines making retreat completely impossible, yes?


Some time passes between both of theses things. The Alliance's push was almost done. Gul'dan wouldn't have been able to summon it, presumably.

08/09/2016 09:58 PMPosted by Kellick
Now, I believe you were saying something about selling me the Brooklyn Bridge?


You'll have to explain me that one.
I think in this case the Horde is probably free from blame. I don't call it cowardice either in the same way I don't mix up bravery and stupidity. I seriously doubt Gul'dan would have fallen and even if he did that would have done nothing to close the access the demons had. Gul'dan is just a pawn in a larger game now. The he is useful to the Legion but he isn't necessary. The door is now open.

The reality is that the Broken Shore was a death trap the Legion knew we were walking into. If you play a rogue you will learn that SI:7 identified the Broken Shore as a Legion trap before we even got there but was intercepted by Legion forces before they could warn the Alliance and the Horde.

So yeah, in the end the Horde gets of the hook for this one incident. Unfortunately there is still a substantial back log and I still think Sylvanas is up to no good targeting a watcher. I don't see how that in any way is going to help fight the Legion.
Some time passes between both of theses things. The Alliance's push was almost done. Gul'dan wouldn't have been able to summon it, presumably.

Emphasis mine, because... well, you're making an assumption.

We don't know Gul'dan wasn't already preparing that spell. We also don't know if the Alliance would have cut through the Legion's reinforcements and made it to him, or if the reinforcements would have been enough to force them back.

You're making an assumption. One that doesn't actually have a basis. And you're stating as much by use of the word "presumably."

If you're arguing the Horde "failed," argue it with the facts, not assumptions. You can't assume the Alliance would have killed Gul'dan (which would have, ultimately, been meaningless, because without the Pillars of Creation the portal can't be closed), because you can't know if he had some secret spell prepared to kill them all in an instant. Or if the Fel Reaver would have fallen on the Alliance forces without the Horde's retreat.

At the same time, we can't say you couldn't have killed Gul'dan... but you can't say you would have. It's speculation, and unsupported in both cases, because it's not what happened.

Making the assumption that Varian and the other Alliance forces would have won if the Horde hadn't retreated - rather than getting surrounded and slaughtered - is an assumption. Both assumptions have merit, but given the end result, arguing assumptions and presumptions is ridiculous.
08/09/2016 08:01 PMPosted by Anawne
But Sylvanas is still a coward.


For following the orders of the Warchief?

The retreat wasn't her call, it was Vol'jin's.
08/09/2016 10:26 PMPosted by Kazala
08/09/2016 08:01 PMPosted by Anawne
But Sylvanas is still a coward.


For following the orders of the Warchief?

The retreat wasn't her call, it was Vol'jin's.


Vol'jin didn't order a retreat. He just said "Don't let the Horde die this day", which is a nebulous statement waxing poetical and not an order.
08/09/2016 10:46 PMPosted by Anawne
08/09/2016 10:26 PMPosted by Kazala
...

For following the orders of the Warchief?

The retreat wasn't her call, it was Vol'jin's.


Vol'jin didn't order a retreat. He just said "Don't let the Horde die this day", which is a nebulous statement waxing poetical and not an order.


Your nitpicking and trying to hard to bait other players. If your going to troll at least do it with some finesse.

As I said already that battle was a lost cause. Killing Gul'dan wouldn't have changed much anyway. Frankly both sides should have looked to retreat way earlier when it was clear the Legion was far more dug in than either faction knew.

What good would killing Gul'dan be when the door is already wide open for the legion already, if its going to cost you the lives of most of the people on the battlefield.
08/09/2016 10:46 PMPosted by Anawne
Vol'jin didn't order a retreat. He just said "Don't let the Horde die this day", which is a nebulous statement waxing poetical and not an order.


The Horde has two options: retreat, or die. There's nothing nebulous about it.

You're just being intellectually dishonest because you have an agenda. That's fine.
I think people are forgetting all the big name demons who were flanking Gul'dan. Pretty much the only big names missing were the guys we took out in HFC, Magtheridon, and Kil'jaeden himself. It's absolutely delusional to think we could have gotten anywhere close to Gul'dan. Someone like Tichondrias alone is no joke. How are we supposed to beat him and Mal'ganis and Balnazzar or Mephistroth all together at once? To say nothing of guys like Brutallus or Jaraxxus there, too. We were screwed before the fel reaver even dropped.

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