The Broken Shore - Nobody's fault.

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This is very late, but..

08/09/2016 06:29 PMPosted by Notabandaid
No one understood what was happening until Sylvanas and her archers walk away


So no one understood what was happening until a few seconds after the horn was blown?

Oh no!
08/10/2016 04:22 AMPosted by Molyn
Unlike the Alliance, the Horde seemed to have ALL of its racial leaders there on the broken isles. Having them all die that day would have dismantled the Horde for sure.


You meet Jaina and Greymane at the shore, then meet up with Varian and Mekkatorque. The Horde has you meeting with Vol'jin and Thrall, then finding Sylvanas and Baine. So, it was about even in terms of "leaders" since Jaina really doesn't count and Thrall doesn't either, since he f-ed off to do his Shaman thing.
08/10/2016 04:22 AMPosted by Molyn
Unlike the Alliance, the Horde seemed to have ALL of its racial leaders there on the broken isles. Having them all die that day would have dismantled the Horde for sure.
Where was Lorthemar, where was Gallywix.

Where was Tyrande, Where was Velen.

It was 4/4
I would love to see the hilarity of the Horde ran solely by Lor'themar and Gallywix.
08/10/2016 04:57 AMPosted by Neutralwalu
I would love to see the hilarity of the Horde ran solely by Lor'themar and Gallywix.
Id love to see even more Velen Tyrande Lorthemar and Gallywix working together on an operation.
What effect did the Horde retreating even have? The Horde were serving two functions.

1. Keep the Alliance from getting flanked by forces from the ridge.

2. Provide cover fire for those bat things.

Even after the Horde retreated, the Alliance wasn't flanked. In fact, all the Legion did was stand on the ridge and leer down at them. Almost as if they knew they didn't need to flank them, because the Legion had the deck stacked from the start.

And the bats? Pretty much as soon as Varian calls for Sylvanas to shoot more down, they stop being a problem. At most, they were only providing a distraction. If Varian was as close to victory as he claimed, neither of those two things should have changed anything.

It was just, "Well, the Horde's gone so there's absolutely nothing we can do now. Fiddlesticks!"

Maybe the only reason Varian wanted her on that ridge was so he could show off for Sylvanas, maybe work up the courage to ask her out for coffee once they got home.
The Legion were clearly plotting the wedge between the Horde and Alliance this would cause.
Honestly, I doubt this was a legion plot. They were just planning on killing us there.

The wedge is because we suck at communicating and we're really easily angered.
Eh not the best thing ive made out of yarn and nails.
Man, I remember when Broken shore was first announced. Quite a few posters assumed Sylvanas would be directly responsible for Varian's death or would retreat maliciously to get the alliance killed. Things didn't quite turn out like that.

Now we have reached the end and I have to say blizzard handled it extremely well. No one was really handed the idiot ball, which is pleasant. The faction war was set up with decent reasons on both sides. The Horde retreat and Sylvanas taking the role of warchief has been explained. Varian was given one of warcrafts most heroic deaths.

The only people that seem to be unhappy are the ones who assumed that the Horde was entirely in the wrong. And that's ok.
08/10/2016 05:08 AMPosted by Neutralwalu
Honestly, I doubt this was a legion plot. They were just planning on killing us there.

The wedge is because we suck at communicating and we're really easily angered.


Basically this.
08/09/2016 10:11 PMPosted by Cobble
You'll have to explain me that one.

It's a play on the expression "And if you believe that, I have a bridge to sell you.", in reference to a con man whose con involved convincing people to buy property he didn't own, including the Brooklyn Bridge.

In this case, it means you said something blatantly unbelievable, and tried to pass it off as true.

See: "Pull the other one. It's got bells."
Of course it wasn't their fault. Varian was worried she did leave them to die but he wasn't sure. Genn and Jaina just have a distrust for the Horde for obvious reasons so it's not surprising they would think the worst.

I wouldn't expect this to be a big deal if they keep Anduin in the character he is right now. Once he speaks with Sylvanas or someone explains to him what happened and that everyone had plenty of time to escape it should blow over. I'd expect Jaina to be hard headed and Genn to have a hard time accepting it.

Though it's possible Blizzard uses this to stir things up I guess, wouldn't make much sense.
08/10/2016 12:06 AMPosted by Audette
08/10/2016 12:05 AMPosted by Mordahn
...

Jaina wasn't even present in the cinematic. She probably teleported long before then.

...Wait, what? Are you telling me that Jaina left on her own? We... know she can mass teleport. We have seen her do this.

What the !@#$ Jaina

I'm telling you. Jaina is a dreadlord.
08/10/2016 12:31 AMPosted by Darkral
I firmly believe that all this set-up is just to make the next expansion a heavy "Alliance vs Horde" since we don't see since vanilla. Something like "Yes, we kick the Legion out of Azeroth, now we have our revenge on the Horde" and the Horde being like "Come and get some, bro". They even can create a new continent without conflict but rich in resources or military position to be contested between the factions.

South Seas please.

Zandalari, N'zoth and Azshara as the primary villains, and a four-way conflict for dominance between the Horde, Alliance, the true might of the Zandalari, and the Naga (with the Old Gods). That would be a good post-Legion expansion.

Throw in a Pirate Nation or something for the hell of it, too. Because why not.

08/10/2016 02:49 AMPosted by Lìneer
Don't worry, you guys still have a few people on the Alliance side that didn't see it as a betrayal. The Alliance were facing down a massive army that just kept getting bigger and bigger the more we fought. They might have liked to think that they had the upper hand, but it was only a matter of time before we'd be calling a retreat ourselves. We had as much risk as the Horde did to be loosing all of our leaders as well as kill off us "heroes", thus striking a crippling blow to the alliance and lessening our chances of ever defeating the Legion.

The Horde have always been shown as being a strong force and for them to sound a retreat horn was unexpected. Honestly, my first thought when I heard it was "Oh !@#$, what the hell is happening up there?" more than anything. I was highly disappointed in both Genn and Varian in the end when they believed the Horde had betrayed us instead of considering the possibility that something terrible must have happened to them. And for Varian to die, saying "For the Alliance" instead of "For Azeroth" was very painful to see.

Are you new around here? I like you. Post more please.

08/10/2016 04:57 AMPosted by Neutralwalu
I would love to see the hilarity of the Horde ran solely by Lor'themar and Gallywix.

We'd be the richest, most magically fabulous faction in history.
08/09/2016 10:20 PMPosted by Vaethria
Some time passes between both of theses things. The Alliance's push was almost done. Gul'dan wouldn't have been able to summon it, presumably.

Emphasis mine, because... well, you're making an assumption.

We don't know Gul'dan wasn't already preparing that spell. We also don't know if the Alliance would have cut through the Legion's reinforcements and made it to him, or if the reinforcements would have been enough to force them back.

You're making an assumption. One that doesn't actually have a basis. And you're stating as much by use of the word "presumably."

If you're arguing the Horde "failed," argue it with the facts, not assumptions. You can't assume the Alliance would have killed Gul'dan (which would have, ultimately, been meaningless, because without the Pillars of Creation the portal can't be closed), because you can't know if he had some secret spell prepared to kill them all in an instant. Or if the Fel Reaver would have fallen on the Alliance forces without the Horde's retreat.

At the same time, we can't say you couldn't have killed Gul'dan... but you can't say you would have. It's speculation, and unsupported in both cases, because it's not what happened.

Making the assumption that Varian and the other Alliance forces would have won if the Horde hadn't retreated - rather than getting surrounded and slaughtered - is an assumption. Both assumptions have merit, but given the end result, arguing assumptions and presumptions is ridiculous.


As Genn says in the cinematic (or maybe Varian), they believe they are about to win. So from their point of view, the Horde failed.
Maybe if you're warriors and more importantly, Faction Leaders had hit the gym more often you wouldn't have been getting stomped on and had to retreat.

Genn and Gelbin were doin WORK SON.

"GG"
You'd think the Alliance would realize that the Horde retreated for a reason when they heard that Vol'jin died and everyone else was injured. Jaina just REALLY wants to slaughter those orc orphans.
I think they handled it nicely for the most part, though I don't see why Varian and Genn took the retreat so hard initially. But I think Varian's death is ironically more of a "hell yeah" for the Alliance than the end of the Seige of Orgrimmar raid due to how absolutely boss Varian looked until he went boom.

I don't think anyone's wrong here. As a roleplayer, though, my character's joining all the people who insist Sylvanas is a coward. She's pretty much on Genn's side regarding this.
08/10/2016 08:48 AMPosted by Lyricalla
I don't think anyone's wrong here. As a roleplayer, though, my character's joining all the people who insist Sylvanas is a coward. She's pretty much on Genn's side regarding this

I think the biggest problem here is most people are looking at the event through a blurred position of the player and character.

An Alliance character would see that the Horde retreated at a moment when it seem the Alliance were about to take out Gul'dan and gave them no choice but to retreat as their flanks were exposed. The Alliance had no idea the Horde situation was so dire until there was nothing that could be done about it.

As a Player we heard Varian telling Glenn to advance as it seemed they were winning. The problem is that is what Varian thought was happening, while we as the player know the Legion had set a trap. Gul'dan was likely prepared for this final push and was anticipating it.

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