Calling All Warlock Voices

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08/17/2016 02:35 AMPosted by Soulsunder
You can't make locks "cool" in comparison to a mage as long as their are mages. We aren't.

I disagree honestly, the MoP incarnations of all three specs were pretty freakin' cool. The idea of literally bursting into flames as you generate resources as Destro was amazing, and then to finally get the green fire we've been asking for since Vanilla was icing on the cake.

08/17/2016 02:35 AMPosted by Soulsunder
I think locks were simply supposed to be the least played: it fit their lore.

As important as the lore is, gameplay takes precedence. If the lore states that a Warlock has a 50% chance to hurt himself because he's dealing with chaotic magic, sure that sounds great from a lore perspective, but from a gameplay perspective it's terrible. You'll never be able to get into a Mythic raid with that kind of thing burdening your class.

Again, not saying the lore is unimportant, but the majority of players care about fun in their gameplay, not what makes them sound cool.
I'd like it if we got some spells that were instant or at least a different magic school so I wouldn't get locked out of casting anything for 5 years in bgs.

Can affliction and demonology get some fire spells back so we can show off that greenfire we spent forever trying to kill a boss for?

Why is our demo artifact big special ability a nuke? give us a big rad demon to summon and destroy our foes with. Give destro the giant nukes, they are the nuking spec afterall.
I don't post very often but, I've mained Affliction since Wrath and I can't even do that anymore because they have completely destroyed the spec.

Sure, it's amazing for PvP but for PvE? It's laughable at best. Soul effigy is the worst talent I have ever seen, they removed Dark soul so now we have to talent for a pet as a CD? I thought we were a DoT based spec??

Destro is absolutely terrible, They went a step in the right direction with MoP. It was fun to play and AoE felt great. But now there's no reason why you shouldn't bring a fire mage instead.

I'm not even gonna talk about demonology.. that is just beyond repair.
Hello? WORKING AS INTENDED!!!!!! none care so why bother?
Bump for OP's points. not the petty bickering of the other comments. Healing nerf was due. not cutting off the class at the knees.
Voicing my support for this as well. I find Demo to be a chore to play, and Aff/Destro just aren't fun with all the RNG shard gen.
I'll add my own observation about visual issues.
The dreadsteed summoning visual - at least the green, Codex of Xerrath one - is broken. Prior to pre-patch, summoning the dreadsteed would also create a kind of pillar of flame to spread out across the ground, centred on where your warlock was standing while casting.
Since pre-patch, that pillar of flame now spreads out in mid-air, centred on the warlock's !@#$.
I don't know if it's the same for the regular old dreadsteed, so if someone could confirm, that would be great.

Now, onto something else that's also ultimately inconsequential: the warlock order hall questline; more specifically, how warlocks (and the Black Harvest in particular) end up looking throughout it. Spoilers, obviously. I don't have beta access, so the entirety of my knowledge comes from some 3-4 month old videos, but I doubt anything has changed story wise. If anything has, please let me know.

NOTE: This ended up a lot longer than I was expecting, and a lot longer than it needed to be for something that's basically me griping about how the Black Harvest sucks. TLDR: the Black Harvest SUX, with a capital SUX.

The questline starts with our warlock being invited to participate in the Council of the Black Harvest's attempts at summoning a powerful demon and enslaving it to use against the Legion. They're down a member, of course, and I've read that if you have the Codex of Xerrath, there's even a one line reference to it (speaking of which, what the hell even happened to Kanrethad? Jubeka swore to keep him perma-banished, but she's in Dalaran now...).

So off we go to the sewers of Dalaran to join the summoning ritual. Predictably, it goes wrong, because the gnome warlock chanting the incantation mixes up a word or five. And, we summon an unenslaved pit lord. Into the sewers of Dalaran. Where the Azeroth offensive into the Broken Isles is based. Maybe twenty minutes after the Khadgar and the rest of the Council of Six teleported Dalaran and everyone in it halfway across Azeroth from Deadwind Pass to the Broken Isles.

And of course, this pit lord also happens to be the ruler of one of the Legion's planets, in command of a small army of demons. An actual army of demons, not a Demonology one. Said pit lord promptly kills the "trifling gnome" who dared to attempt to enslave him, and captures the rest of us, ensuring that literally no one else on Dalaran is aware that there is a gateway in their sewers leading to a Legion planet bristling with demons. Oops.

Of course, through Protagonist Power, the PC warlock manages to escape, reclaim an artifact, kill the pit lord, and claim the Legion world for the Black Harvest. It's too bad everybody else in the Black Harvest was essentially useless. It really, really burns me to see the Kirin Tor's Council of Six be cool as hell, while the warlock equivalent kind of just...%^-* up and nearly get everyone killed.

Hey, we're probably why there are a couple of disguised demons wandering around Dalaran for Ret pallies (all 8 of them) and demon hunters to find and kill.

It's even worse because besides the one guy that dies on the Legion planet who we proceed to resurrect (which raises the question of why we don't just do this !@#$ for every slightly important NPC who dies in our general vicinity), everyone else in the Council of the Black Harvest besides the dead gnome get taken away by the Legion and we have to rescue them as part of the order hall campaign.

God, I'm surprised the Kirin Tor didn't assign every single member of the Black Harvest a personal mage to ensure they weren't nearly %^-*ing everything up again. It's probably because the PC warlock is Khadgar's new best friend for some reason (side note: I actually really like the position of both being a warlock AND someone that Khadgar trusts unconditionally. I just wish we actually deserved that trust considering everything...)
08/17/2016 05:11 AMPosted by Brotherlove
Hello? WORKING AS INTENDED!!!!!! none care so why bother?

07/25/2016 03:05 PMPosted by Hedo
Wow, you're really stupid!
08/15/2016 04:35 PMPosted by Anuî
As seen today, the devs ARE in fact watching the class forums, and looking at what we have to say. This begs the question then: why have no developers stepped up to comment on the state of Warlocks yet with the unanimous denouncement of the class? So if a dev is reading this, I have some questions for you, if you could please take the time to read them.

What is "class fantasy"? What is a Warlock, and what about the fantasy of its specializations decided that they should be homogenized, rather than added to?

A master of fire and fel magic, and a master of shadow and draining magic are reliant on a doomguard/infernal to be their primary source of burst damage? A master demonologist can only summon imps and dreadstalkers? Destruction's primary damage source should be a DoT, and it's staple spell should hit like a wet noodle now? All 3 specs should be dependent on soul shards for "consistency", none of us warlocks understand what was wrong with Burning Embers, and why they were changed both visually AND functionally to be primarily RNG, for the sake of fantasy. What does this mean? We don't see this homogenization of specs in rogues, and certainly not mages.

At what point did you decide that leaving a spec unfinished was okay?

At this point, I mean Affliction and Demonology. Affliction's artifact ability was changed mid-alpha, and with this change it lost the souls that it spawned to proc Soulflame and WoC at a decent rate during a fight. Why were these on-death mechanics kept? They make the spec completely niche to play in raiding now, and have NO use at all in PvP outside of bgs. Why was demonology left unfinished? You have ignored all feedback on Demonic Empowerment, the duration of Demons, the TYPES of demons that can be summoned, and went back on your promise to work closely with the community to revamp this spec to a better state.

Why was baking baseline passives/abilities into talents, and in most cases destroying the complexity of them even a thing for Warlocks?

Affliction and Haunt. Destruction with Backdraft/Shadowburn/Fire and Brimstone. Warlocks with deathcoil, and demonic circle. The loss of a pet ability on GoSac for rng-based aoe damage. Why did any of this happen? From the start of alpha this has been asked, and STILL no solid answer. It's ridiculous!

Why is this much RNG in a class acceptable?

Everyone agrees a small bit of rng in a spec/class is enjoyable and can add to the fun. Warlocks are swamped in rng as Destruction and Affliction. Shard generation as Affliction feels terrible, and UA hits for so little it doesn't feel rewarding. Destruction feels awful to play, having 200-300k differences in Chaos Bolts with average mastery levels is horrible. Shard generation outside of conflag is so unpredictable, that you had to add two traits and a talent (Burning Hunger, Soulsnatcher, Soul Conduit) just to help balance the rng. No one likes being completely starved with shards with nothing to do but cast an empty filler. And on top of all of this, our cooldowns cost shards to cast as well? What?

Why has our class not received basic visual updates?

You guys HAVE to have seen the posts: that Warlocks feel visually unappealing and weak. I.E.:
-Destruction's Ember visuals were lost, Incinerate was neutered, Rain of Fire hasn't been updated since I believe Cata.
-Affliction has NO visuals period. They have DoTs that cause a shadow glow, an old skull effect from YEARS ago, a filler that hasn't been updated since Cata, and the updated effect of that filler (Drain Soul) was reverted to the animation from Wrath.
-Demonology's demons are so small, and look pathetic. You're a Warlock capable of rivaling Gul'dan in power, and all you can do is bind Imps and Dreadstalkers? No Inquisitors, Imp Mothers, Jailers, Dreadlords, or Pitlords? Not even an eredar? Your artifact is the skull of the ORIGINAL demonologist, and you can't even do any of that? What happened to "class fantasy"?

And the last question I'll ask today:

Why have Warlocks been so universally ignored in their feedback and concerns?

You, Blizzard, destroyed one of our specializations for an entire year.
You, Blizzard, removed class elements such as Metamorphosis, Verdant Spheres, Burning Embers visuals, and Soulburn: Haunt's aura of ghosts, to give to other classes/specs.
You, Blizzard, failed to update Green Fire animations for Destructions, on top of riddling the spec with so much rng it must have been a NIGHTMARE for Celestalon to tune.
You, Blizzard Have given zero developer feedback for the ENTIRE beta.

Are you happy with how Warlocks are now? The class deserves an answer once and for all.

To my fellow Warlocks who have read this far, please, PLEASE, share your questions for Blizzard. Let them know why you're unhappy or happy with how the class turned out for Legion. Let them know you deserve an answer at this point.

It is your money that funds this company, and what they do. Do NOT let them treat the class like this. Raise your voices. It's time that Blizzard either acknowledges us, or we accept that they have given up for the expansion.

Many of us have posted similar things for a long time now. It's nice to see one at the top with so many likes. Have a look at all the feedback in the legion class beta forums. So many great suggestions and legitimate mechanical gameplay issues not answered. Things that just make zero sense with all specs. How this many inconsistencies in one class can be made is crazy. If blizzard are watching the thread and thinking 'oh, hah, if we did X then Y would be so OP...', then tell us. Have a bit of transparency and tell us what you're thinking and why things wouldn't work.
Couldn't agree more. I'm still most likely going to main my warlock in Legion, but now it feels more out of defiance than anything else.

I just wish I knew what they were thinking up there that explains all of the clunky changes, the taking away of spell effects and giving to other classes, the absolutely awful RNG (especially for destro, poor destro...) and the liberal nerfs that apparently make sense to them while we're all at a loss for why they're doing this to the class. At this point, I don't even know what "class fantasy" means anymore (I wonder if they even do), but if it means leaving all of our specs a broken mess, no thank you.
In terms of fantasy, demo doesn't feel powerful because you are mostly summoning demonic pests, the mosquitos of the demon realm. You're summoning things that aren't even as powerful as you are. You should be summoning big, dangerous demons more powerful than yourself who aren't happy to be there, threaten you for bringing them there, and maybe even damage or debuff you on their way out once they break free.

Mechanically, all of the summons should bring differing types of damage (burst, periodic, cleave, etc) so you have a reason to prioritize one over another for a given situation. Instead, it's all periodic with a long ramp up, exactly the same as a different spec we already had access to.

It's a major rework in dire need of a major rework.
It just feels like the whole class has regressed mechanically and is incomplete. For starters, the talent trees don't even make sense. I play Demo so I will try to stick mainly to that.

45 Tier: Why do we have a mandatory, powerful defensive mixed into our CC tier? If Demon Skin is going to be mandatory due to our lack of mobility at least make it baseline and fix this tier. Drop the cast time from Shadowfury & add Howl of Terror in place of Demon Skin

75 Tier: The mobility tier - again a mandatory defensive is smashed into this tier and it makes no sense whatsoever. Give Dark Pact baseline and put Demonic Gateway in its place.

Shared damage cooldown: Why? Why do all three specs have the same burst CD in Doomguard/Infernal? This just feels incomplete and like a giant missed opportunity to add some flavor and mechanical variety to the three specs. This would be akin to giving mages Mirror Image baseline & offering no other baseline Cooldown. A powerful pet summon CD, Infernal/Doomguard not sharing a CD... Anything would have been better than what we have.

Damage Ramp Up: Doing dungeons is the most soul crushing thing in the game for Demo... We can't keep up on trash and can barely get off a full shard HoG before trash packs die. We get murdered by most classes on trash pulls and are fairly mediocre on bosses as well. We need 5 shards out of conbat or an ability to help this out. A cooldown that instantly detonates all dooms on affected targets could have been really cool and helpful. This would basically fix the abysmal ramp up as well.

Demonic Empowerment: I like the ability in theory but it was implemented poorly and is by far the biggest issue with Demo at the moment. There are literally hundreds upon hundreds of posts about this ability alone and a rather consistent agreement that it is clunky, tedious, and not very fun to use. There are so many things that could be done to this ability to make it less painful to use - I won't go into detail as there is an abundance of feedback readily available already.

General Rotation: Incredibly bland for Demo. No proc resets or anything amusing to break up the monotony of summoning a weak demon(s) & spamming Demonic Empowerment after.

Too Much Hard Casting: The insane amount of hard casting for Demo really makes me scratch my head. Imagine affliction having to hard cast every dot, then hard cast UA after each dot to empower it. That's basically the mechanics that we're working with right now. Dreadstalkers needs to just be made instant cast baseline - this ability is trash currently. Master Summoner needs to be removed & change the talent to make HoG instant cast.

Weak Visuals: Very, very visually unappealing class to play currently. This has regressed tremendously compared to what it was in previous expansions. The lack of green fire interaction is a head scratcher and most spells could use an overhaul.

Pretty annoyed with the lack of developer interaction with the community and the fact that the whole class feels unpolished and regressed from its previous incarnations. For a spec that had a complete rework I feel like we really got the short end of the stick.
08/16/2016 10:36 PMPosted by Arasaik
Hopefully they will stop gutting affliction and destruction soon tho i dont know about demo, everyone taking implosion and not even bothering with dreadstalkers seems like a nerf scenario , obviously whoever is doing the "balance" here will take the lazy path and just nerf implosion to the ground so demo locks can have three equally crappy talents.

I take implosion in pvp mainly just because I never cast stalkers. If blizz was to find a way to make stalkers worth the cast.. I'd be totally down. Literally the only reason I've been using Dreadstalkers lately is because I'm sick of seeing imps.. and just imps.
08/17/2016 06:31 AMPosted by Julas
In terms of fantasy, demo doesn't feel powerful because you are mostly summoning demonic pests, the mosquitos of the demon realm. You're summoning things that aren't even as powerful as you are. You should be summoning big, dangerous demons more powerful than yourself who aren't happy to be there, threaten you for bringing them there, and maybe even damage or debuff you on their way out once they break free.

This is kind of where the fantasy needs to be reverted to. We we're told an army of pretty cool demons. The only demon army I have is comprised of imps. Yeah I'll summon the occasional infernal in arena matches.. but yeah that's about it.

I totally understand we get Fel Lord or Observer @ 110 pvp, but those are temporary and on a big CD. How cool would it be to have a Fel lord or a Jailer by your side? Not necessarily permanent, but very consistent. I'd be really hype about it
I feel all the talk of "class fantasy" is pointless given how messed up the lore is. There is no real foundation to build any sort of fantasy.

Even "functionally" the class is spread too thin. Ideas about the class have to be split between 3 specs.

Maybe I don't know how to play the class - given that it has only recently been updated and I'm only Lv70. But I can't figure out how to AOE, what I'm suppose to be doing for single target, how to burst in a pinch to save my sorry butt ... combat in general just feel shallow - I just press buttons on CD/when resources are available.
Totally Agree.
I don't need OP, I don't need TOP DPS in every single fight.
I need interesting / attractive / fantastic / unique spec!
08/17/2016 06:50 AMPosted by Catbuyer
I feel all the talk of "class fantasy" is pointless given how messed up the lore is. There is no real foundation to build any sort of fantasy.

Yeah there is no question that the lore is really messed up, but that doesn't mean the class fantasy cannot exist. The fantasy for every spec and how interesting it is or how uniquely different it is from the other 2. Stuff like this doesn't necessarily require an adequate lore.
With how crappy Demonic Empowerment, one thing I am actually afraid of is that Blizzard will decide to make it instant and call it a day. While that would improve the situation somewhat, it would be a total band-aid and not at all enough of a change to really fix the spec. But it's quick and easy and therefore the most likely scenario.
It's sad that Unholy Death Knights are better summoners than Demonlogy warlocks who are suppose to be dedicated summoners.
also, why does the fellord have to be some kind of stationary oof. let him walk around and smack peeps.
08/17/2016 08:00 AMPosted by Abyzz
also, why does the fellord have to be some kind of stationary oof. let him walk around and smack peeps.

Well, the Fel Lord being stationary is 100% understandable, and I'm completely fine with it. When you summon the Fel lord, anyone that walks by him is literally hit for almost 1/4 of their health and is stunned for 1 second, that's a big deal. Imagine letting the Fel lord run around with millions of health and basically soloing players in arena matches haha

and it's completely fine because you can go Fel lord for melee cleaves and Observer for spell cleaves

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