Calling All Warlock Voices 2

Warlock
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Please continue the discussion from Calling All Warlock Voices here.
What's sad is that everything has been said, repeatedly, along with ideas for fixes in many cases.

Just to name a few:

Affliction
- two messed up gold traits that only work for questing/trash
- soul effigy - the worst, most boring, annoying talent, ever
- AoE issues - seed of corruption needs to explode on death and damage taken from all sources. Should be baseline, not talent to improve this - there shouldn't be a requirement to suck at AoE if you want to do decent ST damage.

Demo
- basically everything needs to be fixed. Just a horrible spec with too much ramp up, boring rotation with needed to cast empowerment after every demon is summoned, no mobility, doom doing nothing until after 20 seconds, etc.

Destro
- boring rotation
- chaos bolt hits like a wet noodle
- RNG mastery needs to die in a fire, along with whoever thought it was a good design
- RoF needs a larger radius and not cost shards
- need to fix talents so you can do decent AoE and ST with one build - having to respec after almost every pull in a 5 man is not "fun" it is bad design

Also, need to update visuals.
Maybe I am being silly, but I am getting a good feeling that they will speak on this issue soon and have a plan or something in the works.......wait...wait...that just might be the Nepalese food I had for dinner last night making a resurgence. Lets hope for the former...
I bought this game in 2004 with the want to play as a demon lock. That didn't work out for the first while as an SM ruin spec was required to do progression raiding in the classic days. BC made me happier with the addition of the Felguard and the feeling like I was controlling a powerful demon, having to heal it, keep it alive and its power grew as fights went on (frenzy) etc.

Wrath did a lot of normalization which made me feel a bit sad about the Felguard not being as unique vs other pets in the game (hunters etc). At the same time we were given other abilities to help control the demon further by breaking cc on it, making it immune for short periods, further increasing its dps for short periods etc. Demon form was the first big step towards bad times for me.

Since that time, Blizzard has chosen to back away from what I thought the point of a demon spec warlock was. I did enjoy the tanking aspect of it, I did enjoy caring what happened to my most powerful of pets in the game, I enjoyed having options back then that allowed a skilled demo player to out dps the easier destro specs (demo sac/pet and destro was the spec of the day so they tell me, tho none of the other 4 locks of that spec could beat my dps as full demon in our raid)in raids.

This is the first time I am feeling like my demon spec isn't playable for me, at all. Tons of useless casting, for pets that disappear in 10-12s over and over seems to me, boring and not the essence of what the class should be. Summoning larger than life demons to destroy my enemies should be the direction that spec goes, not tiny useless demons that do next to no damage until a buff is applied that lasts for the few seconds before the demons disappear and i start over again.

Adding a buff is a decent idea, but we should have moved past the Felguard years ago. There are so many large demons that we could wrestle with, making them do our damage while our time is spent healing, buffing, dotting and keeping them under control, what ever. That has been my dream since i first played Warcraft (rts) and saw a warlock... (I am old and forget exactly what year that was :P) we were so much closer once, and we have moved so far away since.. demon form was bad, but these ridiculous castables are much much worse.

It feels kind of futile, like we aren't controlling much (the Felgaurd has been here for 10 years and its tiny and quite powerless compared to how it started and what we are seeing in the way of demons in game these days), but basically throwing disposable things around, trying desperately to buff them before the expire, throwing movement or something into the rotation cripples you massively. clunky and not fun imo.

I am sure I am not alone with these types of ideas, I am sure that at the same time many may disagree with my thoughts. Just wanted to post em before my last few days of game time run out. Thanks for the consideration.

Sorry for the wall of text but I had some feels to express.
My main concern with the Demonology Spec is with Blizzard’s implementation of the class fantasy itself. Level 110 Demonology warlocks with the Skull of Man’ari control legions of demons, single handedly kills a pit lord and rivals the strength of the Nethrazim that controlled it. As you walk by the Felguard army that lines the path to the Felforge they salute you showing respect and obedience, Forgefiends, and Inquisitors alike serve as well as a harem of Succubi.

All of this shows a Warlock of unrivaled power.

However, Blizzard has contradicted the very class fantasy they’ve built with the gameplay of the Legion Demonology Warlock itself.

When threatened, this “Legendary” Warlock is only able to muster the power to summon 1 Felguard, 2 Dreadstalkers, between 1 and ~7 Imps and occasionally the fleeting doomguard?

None of this demonstrates the immense power of the Legion Demonology Warlock as displayed by the class fantasy, class hall, and artifact quest line itself. In Warlords of Draenor the Demonology warlock could control a Terrorguard, Multiple Imps, and turn into an Immense Demon themselves at will. The Legion Demonology Warlock by comparison, has lost the Ability to Transform into such a demon, can Summon a Doomguard instead of Terrorguard, and summon 2 Dreadstalkers in exchange for this loss.

To me, as well as many others, the power of the Legion Demonology Warlock shown by the gameplay is weaker than the same warlock from Warlords of Draenor. Which contradicts class fantasy and power gained through the lore of the Legion Demonology Warlock.

Now, rectifying this issue in my mind is as simple as changing the demons the warlock summons themselves. Instead of a felguard an Overfiend, replace the dreadstalkers with Doomguards, and the imps with felguards.

Now this may not be the best way to implement this, however, the Felguard to Overfiend change, for example would be simple, the Felguard has a charge, a single target attack and a bladestorm, the Overfiend, could have a charge, a single target attack, and a Fire pulse much like an infernal.

Perhaps, by giving the warlock “stronger” demons, as the strength is only in appearance and not in damage numbers, reducing the number of demons may be viable. It has been stated before that summoning growing numbers of demons poses issues for those with Hardware Limitations.

Giving Warlocks a smaller number of “stronger” demon’s saves those with Hardware Limitations, while allowing the Legion Demonology Warlock to truly live up, in gameplay, to the AMAZING class fantasy Blizzard has built for them.
The destro mastery really really needs to go it just doesnt have any sense, also RoF is too expensive for the damage and the time it last, chaosbolt cost two shards and hit like incinarate our filler spell, and we need a basic strong AoE ability as baseline, also the soul shards generation needs to be improve maybe giving a chance to incinarate to generate a shard and finally shadowburn need to be baseline too.

Affliction need improves on the AoE department as well, maybe that seed of corruption explode on impact and affect more targets, like the fire bomb of mages, or an ability like the dks that make the infected targets explode dealing damage to close targets, also the time for ramping up damage is too long, is fine that affli focus on dots but those dots need to start doing full damage since they get applied, and it will be nice to have haunt back or some bursting spell in case of a priority add scenario, also unstable affliction should last a lil bit longer and should cause a debuff on the target that increase the damage done, like the talent but just as baseline even if is neccesary that UA make less damage but keeping the staking factor, and the sould shards generation should be increase.

And for last Demonology, the spamming of empowering demons need to stop, make that a passive buff to all the summoned demons, and making the mastery to increase its value, we should also have superior demons different from destro and affli, like a pit lord or a dreadlord or maybe a shivarra, hand of guldan would be better if instead summoning imps it summon mother imps (max 3 at the same moment) for more time (30 sec) dealing higher damage than the normal imps, and the lilttle imps should be appearing from our direct damage, like a doom tick or our shadow bolt, and for last gave us some more abbilities that deal direct damage as baseline, like implosion and demonbolt (with a cd).

Thats just my thoughts, i dont really need more damage (it can be tunned up and down) i need fun and interesting gameplay thats all that im asking
I agree with much of what has been said and hope for a response on these issues. Especially on the Destro mastery.

As I said at the end of the original thread, I'm in mediocre gear at best, and I see damage swings around 30 to 35K damage on Chaos bolt on the same target. I am terrified at what this will look like at 110 in raid gear.
can blizz just extend the thread instead of making a new one? but that would show that they care, so i guess not.
I like affliction as it is for some team PvP and PvE when I'm by myself grinding. I like the casting on the run and being able to juggle life for damage and effects with my voidwalker/felhunter. The only thing I don't like is that AoE is pretty bad, but it's bad on all specs. I'm digging affliction though. yeah, we're not burst damage monsters, but for grinding and doing dailies, I don't want anything to change on this spec.

I'm forced into playing destro for instances since it's the best spec we have for that sort of thing, but i'd rather not have to play that spec at all since it's so boring and it's still not very good. Damage output still sucks on it. I don't know why this spec exists, go play a mage if this is what you want to do. Locks are supposed to derive their powers through demonic and maleficent sources, so we should have a lot of CC and dirty tricks.

1v1 pvp pretty much doesn't exist for this class but then again it never really has. It would be nice if blizz buffed us in a way that allowed us to be a threat to rogues.
I don't think the Warlock specs are fun. They may be numerically sound, but the gameplay is far beneath what a company like Blizzard is capable of producing. Especially given the theme of the newest expansion.

What can be done though? Blizzard is not likely to do anything big given that Warlocks are typically lower priority than the darling specs like Mages, Hunters, Warriors and now Demon Hunters. Early in Alpha the discussion surrounding this topic was very clear and nothing has changed.

Perhaps one of Blizzard's company goals is to intentionally cheapen one group of customer's product in order to push another product. It sounds crazy but companies do this all the time.

Whatever the case, customers who play Warlocks pay the same rate as everyone else but are not getting the same value out of the game. We know Blizzard is capable of better communication, the Overwatch community is an example of such. But not getting the same insights from Blizzard, especially now, seems to point to the fact that they simply do not care about this situation.

We came to buy a bag of cherries and were sold a bag of mouldy grapes and told that we should have bought bananas.
One of the things that prevents me from being too optimistic (specifically in regards to demo) is the idea that it would require a fairly unprecedented amount of mid-expansion reworking to get to a place that a lot of folks want. Multiple skills and talents would need to be entirely reworked to get the spec's actual feel to something approaching the class fantasy it's supposed to represent.

As others have said, "summon little imps and dogs and constantly buff them" doesn't really scream "one of the most powerful demon summoners on Azeroth." But that's the core of the spec, so it's extremely unlikely we will see any significant changes to those dynamics during Legion.

With our artifact, we are using the power of one of the most powerful Eredar summoners in history, yet the spec doesn't even have a single unique "big demon" summon outside of the PvP talents. It kind of just doesn't make any sense from a class fantasy perspective. You would think we would have some kind of temporary Fel Lord, Dreadlord, Pit Lord, something that actually shows off our prowess and mastery of summoning/controlling powerful demons.

But nope. Summon weak imps and dogs and buff them immediately so that they don't do laughable damage.

Whose class fantasy is that?
08/19/2016 05:53 AMPosted by Kronkite
With our artifact, we are using the power of one of the most powerful Eredar summoners in history, yet the spec doesn't even have a single unique "big demon" summon outside of the PvP talents. It kind of just doesn't make any sense from a class fantasy perspective. You would think we would have some kind of temporary Fel Lord, Dreadlord, Pit Lord, something that actually shows off our prowess and mastery of summoning/controlling powerful demons.


At this point in the game I think Warlocks have learned enough to warrant having a Dreadlord Bodyguard. Maintaining him should be a little tough, perhaps requiring the sacrificing one's health to boost. Instead of life tapping for mana, one life taps to restore the Dreadlord bodyguard's mana.

The dreadlord could add a lot of fantasy to the class too by occasionally growling at the Warlock telling them their time will come, demonstrating that they don't like being subjugated but ultimately have no choice.
Seed of corruption is a really lousy AOE. It takes too long to cast and won't explode on death. Being the only aoe in affliction it really could use a hotfix because as it is it's not viable.

Soul Effigy is the worst talent ever, not only it's bugged (you can target other lock's Effigies) but also makes you have to recast it and ramp up all dots if you have to move. It's a lousy mechanic that has nothing to do with affliction. It should be removed and instead give us back haunt or something that we could use for increased damage on target.
08/19/2016 05:53 AMPosted by Kronkite
You would think we would have some kind of temporary Fel Lord, Dreadlord, Pit Lord, something that actually shows off our prowess and mastery of summoning/controlling powerful demons.


Like I said in another post, they should take some hints from the Kanrethad fight. Demo needs a pit lord badly. There's been no progression of demons over the years. We started with imps and we're still using imps. An army of imps is not a bad thing, but it shouldn't be our best thing. Demo should be fully capable of handling the biggest baddest demons right now.
I am so disappointed that we managed to cap out a thread; we asked for developer feedback over the course of what felt like several days, and received stone cold silence. Admittedly there was a bit of back and forth bickering and shameless little bumps like my own that contributed very little, but capping out that thread shows how passionate we are about our class.

We're concerned about where it's going with who is at the lead currently. The lack of communication and interaction from days like when Xelnath was here is leaving me tired. Warlock is my baby, I may not be a mythic raider or a 2200+ PvPer (Just hit 2k for the first time this season.) But I'll be damned if I don't love the class I've played since vanilla. This is the first time I've looked longingly over the fence at other classes that in some way have taken from our toolkit.

This class has been such a part of my identity outside of the game, when I relate to others that I play WoW I state that I'm a warlock. I think I might just be caught up in this whole whirlwind of feelings that the community is going through; but we really do need some interaction with the development and input on where the class is going from here.
The things that makes me feel depressed as an Affliction Lock are:

- They took our ghost aura thing which was one of our 2 good visual effects along with Drain Soul and gave it to DKs.
- A spec totally focused on Dots can no longer spread their dots efficiently without Soul Swap. (again, which DKs can).
- They took soulburn and soul swap and put a crappy version of it on PvP talents and let Mortal Coil and Howl of Terror in PvE talents which also doens't make any sense! Two great PvE talents turned into crappy PvP talent that no one will ever pick and 2 PvP exclusive talents that no one will ever Pick in PvE.
- I don't remember having a good AoE in WoD (except using Soul Swap which helped a little but it was still not good) And they still making us to choose between a crappy AoE with that Seed that takes forever to explode and do minor damage and a single target DPS that does take time to appear while other ranged DPS can do both no problem.
-For the sake of class fantasy get rid of that grimoires and give us and Destro abilities that doesn't have anything to do with demons! Maybe grimoires that helps us to do decente AoE or buff our dots and fire damage. We have a spec for demons already..we don't need another 2 with the same talents please!

PS: I don't actually have a problem with Soul Effigy but they can make some adjustments.

PSS: I don't think Soul Conduit works well on Affliction. Maybe it would be good to make a a thing that someone has already suggested. Make a talent called "share the pain" that the damage dealt on our main target spreads to nearby enemies.
A lot of great ideas and comments here. I am glad to see I am not alone with the BIG main pet idea for demon spec. I agree that in recent years, someone who really is either, new to warlocks, or doesn't seriously play warlocks is in charge of their design.. No Offense intended. There are those of us that do not want to respec for instances then respec for raids then respec for pvp, some of us want to play our spec and our spec and our spec.. I personally find there has been too much pollution from Blizzards other games coming into what Wow once was, so many moba/diablo elements in the game now, its part of the problem. I like quality of life things as much as anyone but the classes are unrecognizable to what we once loved.

I seriously hope they consider some of the things already said in this post, but I have lost a lot of faith in Blizzards direction. The genre is suffering everywhere because everything has become so instant and so generic. It is ok for things to take time , its ok for people to do quests to unlock parts of their class (old warlock pets, mounts etc, including the farming of the infernal book in lbrs at release, and the epic quest line that was the doomguard summon and dreadsteed mount) the class details are what made this game great and they are being pruned more and more every expansion.

Good talk guys, keep it up! :D
Bump

I don't have anything more to add that has not already been said. I just want to show my support. Maybe if we cap two threads, Blizz will give us a one line response that they have seen the threads cap. WTB a lil acknowledgement plz
Demonology is just horrendous and overall needs to be almost destroyed and rebuilt from the ground up.

Worst of all is the removal of Demon Leap + Falling Meteor. The amount of utility and mobility lost from those two is just staggering (especially outside of battle).
Affliction.

what i liked:

  • the corrosive nature where my screen would be flooded with numbers, although small, constantly instead of frequent bursts like other classes.
  • the opportunity to use the ability that was core to my class since day one; shadowbolt.
  • making mistakes because i clipped a dot too soon. being given a debuff that lasts forever on pve targets is not fun. being given a debuff that lasts forever on a pve target that is objectively better because it deals increased damage is even moreso not fun.
  • having the option of choosing between what type of curse i wanted to use on top of the core debuffs.
  • getting into the rhythm of maintaining debuffs, shadowbolts, and instant-cast shadowbolt bearing nightfall procs.
  • .

    What i have not liked:

  • the constant butchering of this specialization removing the active gameplay that had been prevalent for years.
  • removing any possibility for burst damage: shadowbolt, malific grasp
  • making the application of aoe damage near impossible in a dungeon scenario as it too cannot match the bursty pace of other classes.
  • increasing the effort required just to match someone else's output when they're ultimately pressing two buttons.(this one happened a lot; arcane mages, huntards, moonkin, etc.)
  • the fact that the only time this specialization gets to shine is when the development team ignores their responsibility to maintain an attempted balance. i have not seen affliction as a specialization grow in popularity or receive any attention from the development team since the changes to snapshotting.
  • .

    !@#$s been downhill since mists of pandaria, for affliction specifically. meanwhile other classes and specializations have become more interesting to me.

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