Calling All Warlock Voices 2

Warlock
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Here goes. I promised to post more of my thoughts, primarily concerning Affliction eventually and now I shall.

I am considering doing a full forum topic on the matter if I have the material ala many of the topics listed here. I will see what people think

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748645930

A lot of what I am saying was helpfully inspired by this post in this thread http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748596134?page=2#post-21

He basically points out how the warlock specs fail to live up to their fantasy.

However I will argue that what they define as Affliction's class fantasy is itself underwhelming.

But I will start with what I like.


1. Seed automatically applying corruption.

2. The artifact in general. Consuming souls as well as life is a natural evolution for Affliction. As masters of Death magic shouldn't we be empowered by death?

3. To that end, I like the idea of the gold ring traits Soulflame and Wrath of Consumption. I think Consumption is too weak however or too reliant on stacking. And I like Soulflame because I see no reason why focusing on plagues and drains should exclude a warlock from mastery of Fel and Fire. However I think it being on kill rather than being tied to something like Unstable Affliction is a bad idea.

3. Making us tankier like we were in vanilla and BC. Much better than giving us half-baked ways of escaping danger

4. Phantom Singularity. I have wanted an aoe life drain for a long time. Let the living wither and die.

5. Reap Soul in particular. The redesign away from killing souls which spawn was not a bad idea

6. Using Doomguard and Infernal. While I desire Dark Soul (though I dont think the spell ever screamed warlock tbh) I like being able to more reliably use our class' powerful demons. Makes me feel like a Warlock rather than the alpha build of the Necromancer class.

Now what I do not care for

1. Seed takes WAY too long to cast, especially since it requires damage to detonate. This is bad for our Scythe gathering Souls, something which will make or break a warlock in competitive 5 man content

2. Soul Shards need animation, preferably unique to each spec. I dont agree Burning Embers need to come back but why shouldn't Destruction's soul shards have fire animations on the ui? Or have a burning display on the player as they accumulate? Oh because Fire Mages deserve it more, sorry. I also think Affliction's soul shards could be...darker. Maybe black. Maybe with skulls on them. Maybe with more obviously tormented souls appearing. Something death-y. Maybe Affliction warlocks are so good at manipulating souls that they dont even accumulate physical shards but rather the souls of the damned just swirl around them

3. These next few are directly inspired by Demon Hunters stealing our thunder. Why arent we demonic like them? Demon Hunters in warcraft 3 were not transitioning to demonhood, only Illidan did after absorbing a warlock's latent power. Dont we dabble in fel magic and drink demon blood? Dont those who do this become demonic? And really this cuts to the heart of what is wrong with the Warlock. Compared to the lore behind us, we are pathetic. Our powers are milquetoast, weak, and clunky. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNfRSS6FPIg

4. Why cant we speak Demonic? Curse of Tongues can make others speak in Demonic. Our lost Metamorphosis makes DH's speak demonic. Shadow Priests can speak Faceless in void form. See where the complaints about us losing cool swag are coming from?

5. A much cooler cooldown for warlocks would be to invoke our fel tainted blood's full power for a short period of time. This would be much better than...whatever Dark Soul is supposed to be. Not sure what casting dark soul is lorewise to be honest. Blood is where demonic power comes from, blood pacts with demon and the corruption of the fel. Orcs were just tainted thralls of the Legion and could go into a blood rage. Why not us?

Again, the point of this is to show where our class fantasy and lore is breaking down gameplay wise. And the Demon Hunter with their green fire makes this abundantly clear.

6. Soulshatter! I have died so often without it!

7. maybe this will change at 110. But Mana is so scarce and Life Tap so weak. I have taxed myself of mana and almost health in battlegrounds. A bit of a humblebrag since that means I lived for a long time but WoD had Life Tap perfectly in my opinion. Or at least nerf the hit you take to your health. Squeezing lots of mana out of a little health makes a Warlock feel powerful and knowledgeable.

8. Starting with only one shard for Affliction and Demonology feels wrong. And contrary to how the specs played in WoD and Pandaria where they could get started relatively quickly. In WoD I had Destruction Warlocks telling me I was too fast (obviously that was due in no small part to outgearing him and was probably too far but it was nice). Especially for Affliction. Starting with all 5 would be overpowered but meeting us halfway would be very nice.

Fact is that long ramp up times murder competitiveness in PvE

9. Demonology feels like Affliction. The Demons are basically DoTs with legs. I dont know how to address that but it should be said.

Now for Affliction concerns

The problem with Affliction boils down to two things. One it shares many similarities with two other specs which both receive a lot more attention (one is understandable as it is the only dps spec, however I still balk because if a hybrid tax is a bad idea then so is essentially rewarding hybrid classes with more rewarding dps specs). But the main issue with Affliction: I DIDN'T SPEC AFFLICTION TO PLAY A NECROMANCER, I chose it to be a warlock who focuses on shadow and death but still be a warlock.

Nowhere in the lore is any warlock restricted to only using shadow magic and DoTs. Why is Affliction? I love DoTs but the gameplay has barely changed since Ulduar came out and you seem to keep pursuing DoT purity, culminating in the unsatisfying UA dump playstyle. Haunt, an actual blast of an evil soul, would be a better dump. And direct damage dumps are more reliable. Say a boss is debuffed to take more damage for a short period of time. A ticking DoT is much harder to manage with that brief debuff than just a whallop of damage. If that isn't DoT-y enough than you can play with Haunt's traditional debuff.

Moreover, UA was balanced around being up most of the time in pvp but with a smaller backlash to be dispelled. Well you nerfed to backlash but have kept its low uptime.

And throwing in more Fire and Fel to Affliction's rotation would be easy and in keeping with Affliction's general idea. Maybe Unstable Affliction can explode in a Soulflame-esque blast of fire. That would certainly be unstable. Maybe a powerful but short shadowflame DoT that is only usable on proc. Maybe we can have a direct damage fire spell even. Point being that fire is so much more iconic to warlocks and the BURNING Legion that a lack of it makes Affliction seem like an outcast.

Moreover, Fel would be easy to work in. Fel is corrupting. The Legion uses it to blight the land itself of world's they conquer. Focus on its corrupting and trans-formative properties for the Affliction warlock. It would make Affliction feel like it fills a niche in how the Legion wages it wars. A important part of class identity.

But the worst part of all concerning the fact that Affliction focuses exclusively on Shadow spells and DoTs is that there are two specs which do that more interestingly.

Shadow Priests are the masters of shadow damage, even turning into shadow itself. This would be easily countered if Affliction Warlocks werent trying to focus entirely on shadow damage and instead focused on those aspects while preserving their innate arsenal of Felfire magicks. The Shadow Priest would be the master of shadows while the warlock would have more diversity in its toolkit. A very fair tradeoff in my opinion.

Unholy Death Knights on the other hand are better at spreading literal afflictions than Affliction is. They are the masters of plagues and diseases despite Affliction being a synonym for those things.

Again, if Affliction was not largely locked out of other schools of warlock magic this would not sting. It would just be an area that this particular Warlock dabbled in for his own purposes. But that is not the case, as it stands the Affliction Warlock is thematically a more boring Death Knight or Shadow Priest.

Concluding Thoughts

Affliction's fantasy, described by Blizzard is itself underwhelming. We torment the enemy, feed on their living energies, and steal their souls. Problem: all warlock specs do that. Meanwhile Demonology calls upon their own little army of Demons and empowers them with its will. Destruction rains fire, havoc, and chaos upon foes. Those are both what one would expect from those specs based on their names more or less. Whereas when I hear Afflictions I think of a shadowy specter spreading disease and corrupting all he touches. Feeding on the weak living creatures around him for sacrificial magics and even exploiting the souls of the dead. Some of that is certainly represented in the Artifact weapon, which is great.. But the rest is not.
They've said nothing at all about the state of warlocks. At this point the only way they'll listen is if you guys get a whole lot angrier than you are right now.
08/23/2016 06:44 PMPosted by Molag
08/23/2016 06:27 PMPosted by Uranus


You'll find that there tends to be an inverse relationship between developer communication frequency and the resources available to those developers. Meaning, as the company/game grows bigger you're less likely to receive any form of feedback from them about issues with something in the game. Even though the amount of activism against the current state of warlock has been staggering, it's still just a small blip in the giant pool of subbed players. Most people will either stomach the current iteration of warlock until it's fixed, or they'll reroll.

Personally speaking, I find it incredible that the assortment of super-talented and creative people that comprise the dev team have yielded this (current warlock) as the result. I'm probably in the minority, but I'd rather just quit than play another class. As interesting as Legion appears to be, if the lens that I'll be viewing 99.99% of the content through is busted (my class) then I'd rather just sit this one out.
This is the position I'm in too. I've devoted too much time to my warlock and its really the only class I enjoy because of the lore and "class fantasy" they used to have. Have alts that are fun but have never changed mains. So when I stop enjoying my warlock will just unsub and stop playing which upsets me because I haven't found another game with the same feel as my warlock.

Necromancer in guild wars 2 was close but the game doesn't feel as fun and as much to do. Witch doctor in diablo 3 is fun and in some ways plays like I wish the warlock does but there isn't the lore. Sad times.


This is how I am as well. Pretty much the sole thing that keeps me coming back to WoW for each expansion is to see what new things have been added to the warlock class, particularly demonology. Initially I was excited for the focus of legion on class and spec fantasy, it seemed like a return to my favorite part of vanilla- the class quests. Unfortunately, the class fantasy for warlocks doesn't seem to go beyond artifact weapons and class hall.
Y'know I just realized something about all the complaining people did that got our PvP stat template nerfed to where it is now. I'll admit, some of the changes in that hotfix were necessary. I agree that Lock needs a mechanical change, but they were pretty OP on beta before the hotfix made them near useless.

However, the one thing I hear people echoing over and over is about how we're unkillable. This bugs me to no end, when has the game ever been balanced around 1v1? If sub rogue is any indicator, the game still isn't being balanced around 1v1. Aff locks lost all of their passive mitigation aside from demon skin, meaning we're actually even less tanky if we're stuck in a stun. We're unkillable by 1 person if we use a channeled heal on them, which happens to be in our one spell school. Are disc priests OP because they're unkillable 1v1 while still damaging you? I don't think anyone complaining about dark pact has any real argument to offer considering dark pact has been in the game for multiple expansions, it's just that it wasn't used as often. So now locks start taking the talent and suffer having less mobility because of it and we're too tanky? Despite doing laughably low amounts of dps in pvp with our stat templates and having little to no mobility, our tankiness is what makes us OP? Since when is something OP in pvp because it's hard to kill? If it's doing less damage because of that, it's clearly not as much of a priority to kill anyways. It's such a poor argument and I think it really comes down to people in random BGs complaining about dying to aff lock dots because they don't have a dedicated healer while they're playing a class with no self heals like a demon hunter. As much as I dislike the changes to warlock this expansion, part of me does have a little bit of respect for it being the last remaining caster that can go toe to toe with a melee without having to rely on only instant casts like a fire mage. But of course, if a spec requires you to interrupt or cc it to kill it then it'll get nerfed. We wouldn't want people to actually have to stun someone before killing them when they could just use that global on more damage.
Typically in the leading weeks or week leading to an Expansion Launch a general, casual, semi hardcore or even hardcore player experiences (and this goes for all class/specs) a feeling of excitement, happiness , or even a pump to play the upcoming content.

Well, Blizzard, and especially the developer team....you have taken something away from all warlock activists. You have essentially robbed a class not just a spec given the condition of all three seemingly incomplete specs. We the warlock community should be given clarity/feedback. You have failed to do so. You are given in one form or another sufficient money to respond to the claims made by thousands across a great many of forums, social media outlets and yet the warlock community receives what we now call a weekly " nerf " as our only means of communication.

Warlocks are not and were not #1 in the ranged dps caster listing(Legion Beta). We were not #2, and yet the repeated nerfs soaring as even further down the charts. Highlighting class fantasy, and in return the player base is in uproar over the lack of attention commitment and dedication on the developer end, fantasy being one of the many complaints by the player community when it comes to our class, but certainly not the only one. Synergy - Lackluster. What you have done to warlocks is a recipe for unsubbing an entire playerbase. I wouldn't assume all of us are just going to main switch after 5+yrs of dedicated main play on a warlock. Were going to migrate to a retired state. Which in turn means a loss of money for the organisation itself.

To completely ignore a class like this, and given the lack of reasoning is appauling. Alot of us were actually looking forward to maining a Warlock in Legion, but not anymore. The special attention given to other classes and ignoring ours, why?

Seriously, why, what gives? the Original Poster pretty much nailed most of the focal points as if they were nails going into a coffin.

We deserve answers. You owe us one, or 1000, dedicate a POD cast with the warlock dev team answering questions, i dare you :)

Certainly seen enough on demon hunters, give warlocks the feedback they deserve. Certainly took enough away from us, mind as well make it public that " we no longer care or tend to the needs of certain player bases" because that is exactly what your displaying to date.

Thanks for abs destroying my hopes for legion you took that from us as well. So many of us are being forced to consider quitting or panic-switching to main another bandwagon class like spriest or fire mage. losing raid positions, friends in the community at all levels due to the condition you poorly aligned us with for an expansion launch.
08/23/2016 10:01 PMPosted by Vimela
Y'know I just realized something about all the complaining people did that got our PvP stat template nerfed to where it is now. I'll admit, some of the changes in that hotfix were necessary. I agree that Lock needs a mechanical change, but they were pretty OP on beta before the hotfix made them near useless.

[/quote]

But people were telling me we were still good at 110... you dont mean to tell me that they lied do me?!

Sarcasm obviously. Blizzard overnerfs Warlocks so often
Locks are dead. Its over.
08/23/2016 11:10 PMPosted by Doomsayaa
Locks are dead. Its over.


Your name is so appropriate lol.
I can only hope they change the numbers to make the bland class slightly more enjoyable...
I have to thank all the outspoken warlocks who posts paragraphs of facts and opinions, mostly because I'm too lazy to put in as much effort. So thanks you guys! Also pls fix warlocks thx
I've solved it, my fellow demon summoners. An epiphany came to me as I sat around bored. The current state of Warlocks is a direct result of Blizzard's attempts to allow us to experience the fantasy of what a Warlock truly is.

Think about it: in-universe, Warlocks are almost universally despised and scorned by members of both the Horde and the Alliance.

Blizzard is just making sure we experience every facet of what it really means to be a Warlock by ensuring that even in real life, other players will despise and scorn us just as much as their characters would in universe.

Bravo, Blizzard. How masterful.

On a more serious note, I'm just left scratching my head at how every single Mage spec can opt out of their "ramp-up" time (in terms of generating Arcane charges, Fingers of Frost, and proccing Hot Streak!), but Warlocks (especially Affliction) are out of luck. Every Mage spec can talent into an instant cast ability that allows them to get right into damage (Fire's Flame On is slightly more roundabout since it just gives them 2 charges of Flame Blast, but it works out the same).

Warlocks USED to have something similar, in the form of Soul Harvest (2 second? cast ability that generated 5 Soul Shards instantly), but that obviously had issues in that if any shards procced during the cast, that would be damage lost. As always, many solutions were proposed in the Alpha threads, but Blizzard just decided to ignore them and turn Soul Harvest into a mediocre damage cooldown instead.

Just...why?
I hope they manage to balance the class properly and make it more fun to play... but with their record I am not holding my breath. If this continues I will probably just reroll a mage. More power to those of you that will continue to main a warlock.
08/24/2016 12:41 AMPosted by Iseah
Blizzard is just making sure we experience every facet of what it really means to be a Warlock by ensuring that even in real life, other players will despise and scorn us just as much as their characters would in universe.

Bravo, Blizzard. How masterful.


so what you're saying is.......

~~~~~~~class fantasy
I want my warlock back blizzard why you hate us
Tagging for my support.

I have nothing to add that hasn't been said literally nearly a thousand times over.
08/23/2016 11:52 PMPosted by Vaspein
I can only hope they change the numbers to make the bland class slightly more enjoyable...


I don't. It would be awful if one of our clunky, uninspired specs ends up as the top dog in meters over specs that actually have solid mechanics just because blizzard decides to go the easy route and slap some bigger number bandaids on us. We need real fixes.
basically what i said in this thread, but posting here for a bump

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748904812
08/24/2016 06:02 AMPosted by Kronkite
08/23/2016 11:52 PMPosted by Vaspein
I can only hope they change the numbers to make the bland class slightly more enjoyable...


I don't. It would be awful if one of our clunky, uninspired specs ends up as the top dog in meters over specs that actually have solid mechanics just because blizzard decides to go the easy route and slap some bigger number bandaids on us. We need real fixes.


I want real fixes too, but I don't think they will do that for awhile, and if there is anything that needs to be tuned number wise to be improved or made relevant, then do that until then.

I don't wanna leave my warlock even if it is bland and clunky, too attached to it...I might though.
I've been thinking alot about this idea of class fantasy especially as it applies to affliction, and while all schools of warlock seem to suffer from this bland fantasy affliction seems to suffer the most, and when I thought about it I realized there really doesn't seem to be am established afflcitio fantasy in game.

most warlock NPCs are demo or destruction, I can't really think of a notable afflcitio warlock in the lore, which is why I think so many are comparing us to shadow priests or unholy DKs

Now I feel te comparison to unholy DKs isnt right. Unholy corryou'd the physical body which is shown in their spells, they afflict their target with disease and festering wounds. Shadow priests draw their power from the void, corrupting the mind, similar to the Old God's who share their power source.

Affliction is supposed to corrupt the soul and spirit, agonizing and torienting the very life essence of their victims. What character in the lore does this?

The Nathrezim

The dreadlords corrupted the very being of SARGERAS. They wiki and official lore states they revel in tormenting and agonizing. Most importantly they are demonic, potentially the original demons.

This dark race of vampiric demons (also known as Dreadlords) conquered a number of populated worlds by possessing their inhabitants and turning them to the shadow. The nefarious, scheming Dreadlords turned whole nations against one another by manipulating them into unthinking hatred and mistrust. Sargeras defeated the Nathrezim easily, but their corruption affected him deeply.


Whether in Legion or beyond I feel this link between affliction and the Nathrezim needs reinforced. This should be our class fantasy, corrupt magic users channeling the corrupt malefic nature of the dreadlords from deep in the Twisting Nether

Their demonic magics can drain the life of their victims, and they have been reported to devour the souls of their slain victims. They can amass a swarm of flying carrion insects, and have been known to put their enemies to sleep. They prefer to work from the shadows, corrupting slowly, as opposed to assaulting their enemies directly


This sounds EXACTLY how afflcition should be and is directly from the lore
08/24/2016 08:47 AMPosted by Schwarzvald
I've been thinking alot about this idea of class fantasy especially as it applies to affliction, and while all schools of warlock seem to suffer from this bland fantasy affliction seems to suffer the most, and when I thought about it I realized there really doesn't seem to be am established afflcitio fantasy in game.

most warlock NPCs are demo or destruction, I can't really think of a notable afflcitio warlock in the lore, which is why I think so many are comparing us to shadow priests or unholy DKs

Now I feel te comparison to unholy DKs isnt right. Unholy corryou'd the physical body which is shown in their spells, they afflict their target with disease and festering wounds. Shadow priests draw their power from the void, corrupting the mind, similar to the Old God's who share their power source.

Affliction is supposed to corrupt the soul and spirit, agonizing and torienting the very life essence of their victims. What character in the lore does this?

The Nathrezim

The dreadlords corrupted the very being of SARGERAS. They wiki and official lore states they revel in tormenting and agonizing. Most importantly they are demonic, potentially the original demons.

This dark race of vampiric demons (also known as Dreadlords) conquered a number of populated worlds by possessing their inhabitants and turning them to the shadow. The nefarious, scheming Dreadlords turned whole nations against one another by manipulating them into unthinking hatred and mistrust. Sargeras defeated the Nathrezim easily, but their corruption affected him deeply.


Whether in Legion or beyond I feel this link between affliction and the Nathrezim needs reinforced. This should be our class fantasy, corrupt magic users channeling the corrupt malefic nature of the dreadlords from deep in the Twisting Nether

Their demonic magics can drain the life of their victims, and they have been reported to devour the souls of their slain victims. They can amass a swarm of flying carrion insects, and have been known to put their enemies to sleep. They prefer to work from the shadows, corrupting slowly, as opposed to assaulting their enemies directly


This sounds EXACTLY how afflcition should be and is directly from the lore


I can get behind that, I would also like to see more dealing with fel magic. I mean affliction warlocks should be dealing with fel power like Gul'dan and no soul shards. Fel Magic comes from life essence, we literally drain life and steal life essence from others in our abilities.

Page 9 on this thread I made a post explaining some of my thoughts

I think all affliction damage should heal them for a small amount, they can change the healing up so it balances out, and for all healing they receive from their abilities it also build Fel Power. Fel Power could make you dots spread depending on the amount you have, but also have abilities to spend it on. So you kind would decide if you want to spend your abilities sooner or build your Fel Power up and get some dot spreading going...naturally as a warlock you should always start with a decent amount of Fel Power too.

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