What's with the Jaina hate?

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08/11/2016 11:15 PMPosted by Razièla
Cataclysm. it's been explicitly stated that Northwatch troops were using Theramore as a staging area before branching out into the rest of the continent.


Yeah but that wasn't Jaina's decision as much as they were Stormwind troops she gave quarter. It's also stated that Theramore and the other settlements were in constant attack so they needed to defend themselves.

08/11/2016 11:20 PMPosted by Linali
You're not disagreeing with what I'm saying. Varian became more agreeable, so they needed a new faction leader who hates the Horde. Thus, Jaina's complete 180 which butchered her core character traits. Just because the two events didn't occur simultaneously doesn't make the changes unrelated.


I'm saying that Varian grew as a character long before she did anything.
I think she grew as character. In any case there were already leaders that hated the Horde. Jaina's hatred was ultimately unnecessary for the events of MoP as the idea was to fight for Pandaria and Varian was full on with it.
Honestly, I wish they killed Jaina in Theramore because since they've just been dumping on her character design. This is coming from someone who played WC, and as Linali said:

08/11/2016 11:20 PMPosted by Linali
Thus, Jaina's complete 180 which butchered her core character traits.
08/11/2016 11:26 PMPosted by Averyx

08/11/2016 11:20 PMPosted by Linali
You're not disagreeing with what I'm saying. Varian became more agreeable, so they needed a new faction leader who hates the Horde. Thus, Jaina's complete 180 which butchered her core character traits. Just because the two events didn't occur simultaneously doesn't make the changes unrelated.


I'm saying that Varian grew as a character long before she did anything.
I think she grew as character. In any case there were already leaders that hated the Horde. Jaina's hatred was ultimately unnecessary for the events of MoP as the idea was to fight for Pandaria and Varian was full on with it.


Not in storyline terms, no. Varian didn't show this appreciable growth until about what, beginning of Cataclysm? You could argue maaaaaybe the end of Wrath in ICC but definitely not before that. Jaina's heel-face-turn came about right at the end of Cataclysm, so within an expansion, just as the two factions finished facing another world ending threat and just in time to re-ramp up the Horde vs. Alliance tensions required for the early Pandaria storyline. It's really quite obvious from a writer's perspective that she was changed for plot development and "necessary" faction tension. Her change was quite sudden, with no build-up or gradual change in characterization. MMO characterization can be difficult and requires a certain amount of finesse - and whoever handled Jaina completely botched it.

As far as other characters go, the closest to hating the Horde like Jaina does is Greymane and he is a)less expendable as a faction leader and b)less well-known to the average WoW player, who would have first been introduced to him in Cataclysm.

And no, Jaina took drastic steps backward as a character - she basically became angry!Varian 2.0. We're talking about a character that used to have a "yeah some Horde are bad but that doesn't warrant condemning them as a whole" outlook change to "GRRR DIE HORDE DIE".

Which isn't to say that changing more peaceful leaders like Jaina is bad - what I'm saying is that the way they went about it was horribly, terribly wrong. Add in her apparent insanity with wanting to restart open warfare with the Horde as we're being invaded by the Legion, and I'm speechless. And not in a "wow, excellent writing!" kind of way.
I kinda liked Varian's character, so of course it makes me dislike Jaina because she essentially killed him. Why didn't she mass teleport the Alliance out? I really do think she is on the Legion's side.
Because she's a dreadlord.
Anyone else think there's something extremely off about Jaina? She creeps me out.
I'm waiting for her raid boss moment :D We can loot her stave and maybe a trinket or two, that would be nice.
08/11/2016 10:38 PMPosted by Auradime
From what I'm seeing, a ton of people hate Jaina. Why?

Because she isn't willing to 100% trust the Horde after suffering multiple betrayals in a span of less than 5 years after devoting her entire life to trying to convince people they were different?

Because people expect her to have meta knowledge that the Horde were being overrun and that's why they retreated at the Broken Shore despite literally no other Alliance character having or being expected to have this knowledge?

Because she points out that, so far, the Horde has been exceptionally prone to recklessness and untrustworthiness which is fairly accurate thus far?

For me, it's not so complicated. She won't shut up. She's like my 2nd ex- ..... even after the argument has been won, or the point has been made, the gums just keep on a-flappin'. Anytime I'm in game and she's around, I'm tempted to shake my fist at my monitor and yell "PUT A SOCK IN IT!" But even if I did that, she STILL wouldn't shut up.

If Shakespeare were alive now, he would look upon her as his inspiration for The Taming of the Shrew, except she doesn't need to be tamed, she just needs to SHUT THE HELL UP once in a while.
When it comes to Jaina, I really hope Sylvanas goes about her usual shady methods and gives Jaina a "told you so" moment. It's really one of the only ways I could see them trying to justify her horde hate because Sylvanas is the type of leader that you'd sleep with one eye open around
Hating on Jaina is a favourite pasttime of the horde. I am pretty sure the whole dreadlord thing (which has ZERO evidence whatsoever, not even subtle hints) has achieved meme status as well.
08/11/2016 10:47 PMPosted by Razièla
Not trusting the Horde is all well and good, but being this all-out hostile when the Legion is out to destroy ALL of us is just wrong.


You know what? There will ALWAYS be someone trying to destroy us all; it is not a valid excuse for the crap they like to pull from time to time, anymore. Actions have consequences and I for one am happy to see the Horde get a little back of what they have been so gleefully dishing out.

It sucks just a little bit when you are on the receiving end doesn't it?

If Jaina wants to go nuclear, then that's fine by me.

Are ya fist pumping yet? Because I sure as hell am!
08/12/2016 01:05 AMPosted by Blaumeux
Hating on Jaina is a favourite pasttime of the horde. I am pretty sure the whole dreadlord thing (which has ZERO evidence whatsoever, not even subtle hints) has achieved meme status as well.


Oh yeah? Then why'd she disappear from the Broken Shore the moment Gul'dan summoned Tichondrius? Why didn't she help teleport the Alliance forces out? Hmmm?

And then she managed to disappear from the SW throne room just moments before the demon hunters revealed the demons that had infiltrated SW.

Coincidence? I think not!
Why do I hate Jaina?

"All I want to do is study," she would say. Apparently with knowledge came power, but not enlightenment.

Before Wrath, she was a strong, sensible, diplomatic leader.

In Wrath she devolved into weepy arm candy for the great returning hero.

Come Cata she's either duplicitous and conspiring to attack the Horde, or a completely inept commander unaware of what her subordinates are doing. Take your pick as to which is more damning.

And Finally, Mists and beyond, she's nothing but a shallow sack of haterade. No hint whatsoever of any learning, instead she has all the expected reactions of a teen who discovers her boyfriend and best friend making out under the bleachers.

That's why I hate Jaina now.
08/12/2016 01:10 AMPosted by Adelphie
08/12/2016 01:05 AMPosted by Blaumeux
Hating on Jaina is a favourite pasttime of the horde. I am pretty sure the whole dreadlord thing (which has ZERO evidence whatsoever, not even subtle hints) has achieved meme status as well.


Oh yeah? Then why'd she disappear from the Broken Shore the moment Gul'dan summoned Tichondrius? Why didn't she help teleport the Alliance forces out? Hmmm?

And then she managed to disappear from the SW throne room just moments before the demon hunters revealed the demons that had infiltrated SW.

Coincidence? I think not!


Whoa, easy there you crazy blue human. I heard if you squint hard enough while looking at Thrall you can see the outline of Garithos appear too!
Since WC3 Jaina has given the Horde chances. Jaina's forces and Thrall's became allies with all their history to battle the Legion in Kalimdor, even defending themselves from Tyrande's overzealous Sentinals initially.

Multiple political crises threatening peace between Theramore and Orgrimmar occur, including Jaina's own father declaring an all out war on the Horde - and Jaina tries to persuade him to stop, and when that fails orders her forces to stand down while assisting Rexxar's escape from Admiral Proudmoore leading to her own fathers death.

Then during the early years of WoW Jaina works with Thrall to maintain the peace through multiple problems.

Open combat starts to occur between the Horde and Sentinals in Ashenvale, but Theramore remains neutral to the combat.

Evantually fighting does breaks out between Theramore and the Horde, so Jaina's people takes appropiate actions to defend themelves proactively.

Cut to Theramore (a joint civillian military settlement) getting effectively nuked - with noncombatants directly attacked with a weapon of mass destruction.

Jaina wants to destroy Orgrimmar, with anger and vengeance being a fairly normal reaction in such a situaton, but calms herself and tries to advocate peace from Dalaran.

(and the Horde at this point as a history of excessive force on civilian targets - the Forsaken using the plague on Southshore for instance)

Evidence (not Proof but reasonable Evidence) points to Bloodelves within Dalaran assisting in smuggling the Divine Bell - a potentially massively devestating weapon, to Garrosh - who dosent have a good record with such things.

After all this, how could She Not oppose the Horde? Even the calmer elements such as the Tauren are still willfully allied with the Forsaken, Garrosh's Horde; not cutting ties or declaring independence, all collaborating.

It seems very human, moral, and rational to think the Horde has started to do more harm than good and must be "dismantled" for the greater good.

I'm biased, and I'm sure I've missed or misinterpreted afew pieces of lore, but overall I proudly consider myself a Jaina loyalist from WC3 and into the future.
I don't hate Jaina, but she wants to kill the Horde so I'm going to fight her. It doesn't matter how justified she is, or how corrupt Sylvanas' reign inevitabley becomes. Soldiers don't get to choose their enemies, or what their homeland stands for that sh*t is in the hands of the people running the government.

At the end of the day, I'm just here to kill what I'm pointed at.
All of this ridiculous misunderstanding between the Horde and Alliance could've been prevented by just, you know... communicating?

Tell Varian we should both retreat? Nah. Let's just do it anyways without saying a word! We'll leave the sound of our horn open to interpretation!
Quite Walrus, just be like "yo Alliance, you hear this horn it means Flee"

Instead I was getting Dragonage Ostagar flashbacks

But Sindras, the Geneva Conventions for example were made and point out that being ordered to commit a war crime is not a justification. In such situations defecting, deserting even surrendering to the enemy could be considered more moral - though morality is of course relative and varies person to person but still

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