Warlocks - Your class needs you! Thread List

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Shameless request to get my thread added to the list: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748864899#1

With the advent of the blue post, it may be a good idea to have threads dedicated to discussion of the specs and how to fix them.
Stickying this for my own organizational sanity. ;)
Yeah, they've really shoved it up warlock behind this expansion. MAKE WARLOCKS GREAT AGAIN!
Dropping in to show support for all you Warlocks. I don't have any room to moan about any kind of minor gripes I have for Mages for minimal things that could see adjustment because let's be real, Mage's have been the "Golden Child" for expansions now. Literally always perpetually top DPS with minimal class issues.

I feel really bad for all you who main warlocks. I really hope this gets addressed because no class should be the butt of every joke when it comes to class design, which Warlocks have undoubtedly always been for years.
08/24/2016 05:30 PMPosted by Asaharu
no class should be the butt of every joke when it comes to class design, which Warlocks have undoubtedly always been for years.


I'd argue that Ele Shamans actually get that title. Thanks for your support nonetheless :)
Great thread. Good to see this stickied.
Sorry guys, pulled an all nighter the night before last, I missed all the action because I was asleep all yesterday + night (im in euro so that adds to the confusion). Will make all updates now!

Also @Ornyx, you're one fel of a blue! :)
08/25/2016 05:50 AMPosted by Poynty
Sorry guys, pulled an all nighter the night before last, I missed all the action because I was asleep all yesterday + night (im in euro so that adds to the confusion). Will make all updates now!

Also @Ornyx, you're one fel of a blue! :)


Had a feeling this was the case so that's why I try to collect the posts for ya
08/25/2016 06:50 AMPosted by Baalsamael
08/25/2016 05:50 AMPosted by Poynty
Sorry guys, pulled an all nighter the night before last, I missed all the action because I was asleep all yesterday + night (im in euro so that adds to the confusion). Will make all updates now!

Also @Ornyx, you're one fel of a blue! :)


Had a feeling this was the case so that's why I try to collect the posts for ya


Thanks dude! I will go through your list in a sec and make some format / org changes so it fits with rest of post if you don't mind.
You guys are doing a hell of a job. The warlock community thanks you
These were mainly PvP orientated, but here were two good posts I wrote months ago regarding Warlock's (and other caster's) PvP performance at 110 on the PvP Max Level testing realm.

Regarding the disparity between melee and casters.
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20745196336

Legion PvP, from Beta to Live: A Path Forward.
http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748456380
Most of my feedback is on "feel" over numbers and things specs are not effective at. Hopefully it fits in here somewhere.

Affliction
  • Little bit of an identity crisis which hurts the fantasy. We're half "inflicting magical corruption, curses, and agony" and half "soul/life sucking". It hurts a bit visually as well.
  • I understand Haunt mechanically, but maybe Haunt wasn't aesthetically the best spell to repurpose for a CD nuke? It isn't doing much "haunting" these days.
  • I sometimes have to double check that I actually cast Phantom Singularity.
  • Demonology
  • Nothing is really satisfying. You never get the satisfaction of following up a long cast with a quick blast of something. There is no chaining of insanely damaging abilities. It's just constant "try to keep up as many dudes as possible." I am all for the pet master over Meta idea, but at least with Meta you built up to slightly varied mechanics for a few seconds.
  • Imps spawning on the enemy feels bad. Part of the appeal of Imp Swarm was suddenly you had a little army of your own. Now they just get lost in the melee clutter. I barely see the multitudes of firebolts getting launched. I do not know how to resolve this visually considering how they spawn now but I'd like to have my imps back.
  • Demonic Empowerment can't be watched without going significantly out of your way or via addons. There is almost no feedback. You "know" your pets are better but you barely see it. I really think this ability could be turned into a "all demons attack your target instantly" instant cast, short cooldown which could fix target switching and burst. It would be appealing mechanically in much the same way Eye Beam is as there would be an immediate number explosion.
  • Demonwrath... is just really hard to like. It suffers a lot of the same issues as the rest of the spec. I don't feel connected to it.
  • Destruction
  • The way I always differentiated Destruction from Fire was "Fire is about flinging flames, Destruction is about spreading flames." This sort of peaked with the original incarnation of FnB. I didn't even notice how basic the single target rotation was because I had so much fun with AoE. FnB -> Immo -> FnB -> Conflag -> FnB -> Inc. I "felt" like I was injecting more power into every cast. This feeling died when it was changed to a toggle. I'd really like to have those moments back of "going mad with power."
  • I still really like the idea of FnB being something you activate for a Soul Shard. Maybe it can spread your Havoc for a few seconds. This would give it some setup to use as well.
  • Can Channel Demonfire be bigger? Like WAY bigger? Just scale up those particles like 500%
  • edit: Forgot this one. The mastery is a boring version of Elementals mastery. Additional spell casts are cool, random numbers less so.
  • 08/25/2016 09:56 AMPosted by Wrensh
    Most of my feedback is on "feel" over numbers and things specs are not effective at. Hopefully it fits in here somewhere.

    Affliction
  • Little bit of an identity crisis which hurts the fantasy. We're half "inflicting magical corruption, curses, and agony" and half "soul/life sucking". It hurts a bit visually as well.
  • I understand Haunt mechanically, but maybe Haunt wasn't aesthetically the best spell to repurpose for a CD nuke? It isn't doing much "haunting" these days.
  • I sometimes have to double check that I actually cast Phantom Singularity.
  • Demonology
  • Nothing is really satisfying. You never get the satisfaction of following up a long cast with a quick blast of something. There is no chaining of insanely damaging abilities. It's just constant "try to keep up as many dudes as possible." I am all for the pet master over Meta idea, but at least with Meta you built up to slightly varied mechanics for a few seconds.
  • Imps spawning on the enemy feels bad. Part of the appeal of Imp Swarm was suddenly you had a little army of your own. Now they just get lost in the melee clutter. I barely see the multitudes of firebolts getting launched. I do not know how to resolve this visually considering how they spawn now but I'd like to have my imps back.
  • Demonic Empowerment can't be watched without going significantly out of your way or via addons. There is almost no feedback. You "know" your pets are better but you barely see it. I really think this ability could be turned into a "all demons attack your target instantly" instant cast, short cooldown which could fix target switching and burst. It would be appealing mechanically in much the same way Eye Beam is as there would be an immediate number explosion.
  • Demonwrath... is just really hard to like. It suffers a lot of the same issues as the rest of the spec. I don't feel connected to it.
  • Destruction
  • The way I always differentiated Destruction from Fire was "Fire is about flinging flames, Destruction is about spreading flames." This sort of peaked with the original incarnation of FnB. I didn't even notice how basic the single target rotation was because I had so much fun with AoE. FnB -> Immo -> FnB -> Conflag -> FnB -> Inc. I "felt" like I was injecting more power into every cast. This feeling died when it was changed to a toggle. I'd really like to have those moments back of "going mad with power."
  • I still really like the idea of FnB being something you activate for a Soul Shard. Maybe it can spread your Havoc for a few seconds. This would give it some setup to use as well.
  • Can Channel Demonfire be bigger? Like WAY bigger? Just scale up those particles like 500%


  • Please add your thoughts to a thread in the OP, or create your own which I shall be only to too pleased to consider for inclusion in the master list.
    [Edit: Sorry, was zonked out and didn't realise this is a thread-consolidation. Will add the feedback below to one of the relevant threads!]

    Sorry I'm late to the party and missed the other thread - sharing my feedback on Destro Warlocks, based on my experience in the beta so far(can't comment on Aff and Demo as I've not tested them yet):

    The Bad

    Mechnically, Destro feels awful right now. There are many reasons for this:

    1. Shard generation is terrible. You only have 2 sources of shard generation - conflagrate and immolate, and out of the 2 sources, one is RNG. That makes destro's resource generation feel clunky and completely unpredictable, and a bad RNG streak means you can go lengthy periods of time without being able to cast any hard-hitting spells. This problem is exacerbated when you spec into Roaring Blaze (which, let's face it, is the only viable talent in that tier for raiding) - your conflagrates are all saved to maximize Roaring Blaze damage, which means you don't even get to actively use your 1 reliable shard generator in times when you may just need that 1 extra shard to squeeze out a Chaos Bolt.

    2. Incinerate is a pointless spell. It hits like limp noodles and it contributes absolutely nothing to resource generation. It is in every definition, a 'filler' spell. It's just there for you to cast when there is literally nothing else you can do because you're shard-starved. And spam casting incinerate doesn't even help you generate shards! Testing the Feretory of Souls legendary (which grants a 15% chance on casting a Fire spell to generate a soul shard) immediately made the class feel much better - and that's not a good thing. Prior to getting the legendary, the class feels clunky. The legendary makes it palatable.

    3. Destro mastery is horrid. I still cannot understand why destro mastery was reworked to become entirely RNG. And in its current design, mastery actually punishes you the more you stack it. As you get more mastery, the potential RNG nature of your DPS becomes greater. To illustrate:

    At lvl 110, with 700 mastery you do anywhere from 0 to 30% more damage. With 4000 mastery, you do anywhere from 0 to 60% more damage. As your mastery increases, the potential disparity in your DPS between pulls becomes greater and there is literally no amount of player skill that will compensate for that. You can be doing godly DPS in 1 pull and be scraping the bottom of the barrel in the next. That is not fun or rewarding in the least.

    4. Incomplete toolkit. Destro warlocks are forced to spec either into single target or AOE DPS. There are 2 main AOE talents - Fire and Brimstone, and Grimoire of Sacrifice. Without these, the only AOE spell that the warlock has in its arsenal is Rain of Fire, which does horrid damage for the amount of shards it costs. However, taking these 2 talents removes Eradication and Grimoire of Service, which are a huge boon to single target DPS. This is generally not a problem for questing and raiding content - because it's more efficient to simply run AOE talents for quests and raiders would generally respec for different boss fights anyway. However, it IS a problem for dungeon content. Where most classes can simply go through a dungeon and have enough skills in their toolkit to adapt to both trash aoe pulls and single target boss fights, warlocks who want to maximize their DPS have to constantly switch talents during a run. This is especially bad in Mythic+ where every bit of DPS counts.

    And all that aside, Destro does not even have a baseline interrupt unlike most classes. This makes certain content exceedingly frustrating (for example, the withered training scenario, where interrupts are a must if you want to proceed further inside). There are 2 ways for a Destro lock to get an interrupt - either replace your Imp pet with either Doomguard or Felhunter, both of which are a DPS loss since the artifact only buffs Imp DPS, or to spec into Shadowfury. And Shadowfury is not even a reliable interrupt, since it now has a cast time, and speccing into it means the loss of the Demon Skin talent, which is an amazing survivability talent. This means that a Destro lock wanting to have an interrupt ability has to either gimp their own DPS or survivability. That's... really not a good choice to make, is it?

    The Good

    1. The artifact ability is fun and feels good. it does a fairly substantial amount of damage and it feels like the artifact is making an active contribution to player power.

    2. Wreak Havoc is amazing. It makes cleave battles feel extremely rewarding and exciting.

    3. Destro survivability is off the charts. Demon skin combined with Dark Pact provide Destro locks with a lot of extra mitigation. Combined with Prydaz, Xavaric's Magnum Opus...

    4. The class fantasy, at least as far as the class order hall is concerned, is spot on. The order hall is very uniquely Warlock-flavored and the class campaign hits a lot of right notes, especially with how Warlocks essentially seize the power of demons for their own.

    Suggestions

    1. Make Incinerate meaningful and/or provide more reliable sources for shard generation.

    2. The concept for Mastery is fine in theory, but it should be a moving bottom and top range, i.e. instead of going from 0 - 30% to 0 - 60%, it should go from 0 - 30% to 30 - 60%, or something along those lines. This makes Mastery a useful stat and keeps the RNG disparity consistent.

    To sum up my thoughts, I think Destro was built on some solid foundations for Legion, however, the current playing experience falls a tad short and the spec just feels unrewarding and stale at the moment. I really hope that the spec can be relooked before the xpac hits, and I'm very glad that Ornyx has been taking the effort to look through all the feedback. Major kudos to you, sir :)
    08/25/2016 08:25 PMPosted by Baalsamael
    Compilation post made:

    http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748805127#1


    Added :)
    Class Devs: Where are all these supposed complaints? I don't see anything...

    *5 Minutes Later*

    Warlock Community: Behold! A year of legitimate complaints that you have ignored!

    *2 Days Later*

    Poynty: Hey look I made the library of Warlockxandria!

    *37 Months Later*

    Class Devs: Doesn't fit class fantasy...

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