Can we stop this high king nonsense now?

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08/15/2016 10:46 AMPosted by Pouncey
08/15/2016 10:44 AMPosted by Darksmear
...

no he isn't.. that comic is decades in the future and there is no reason to think that another member of Alliance leaderhsip doesn't fill the roe for now.

i would argue that it seems Greymane has the title in Legion since he seems to be the one leading most of the Alliance forces in the Broken Isles.

Hence why the Horde section of Dalaran is named after Sylvanas and the Alliance section is names after Greymane


...They released a comic about events decades in the future?

Way to spoil any time you ever put those characters in peril! (hint: they survive)


That comic also suggests that the war against the Legion is still being fought decades in the future and unless Blizzard intends for the next 20 WoW expansions to all be about fighting the Legion then odds are events won't play out the same way ;)
High King is a military title for all intents and purposes. Heck questing in MoP and WoD tell you races still move on their own.

In any case people clamoring for Tyrande only because she has Thousands of years don't understand one thing. In those thousands of years she fought mainly the same enemies. Night elf society was stale, they stayed on their homeland fighting against trolls, centaurs and harpies. Draenei kept running away because the naa'ru told them so and only fought the Legion and orcs. However you see it, the only race that has actually fought a varied number of enemies on the last 30 years have been humans.

They fought the old horde, the legion, the trolls, the scourge, the night elves, other humans, the naga, the elves and all of that before WoW begun.

Night elves lived in a bubble without challenges because they were so dominant, they didn't advance with the world, humans did however, they had constant threats, constant movement. Their military theory-crafting should be far superior to a race that hasn't advanced.

Remember that is not the quantity of time the races have, but the quality. And while it's true that Nelves fought the legion basically alone in the past, how many thousands of years have passed? the Legion has evolved and they haven't and they can't possibly remember all in perfection.

08/15/2016 10:46 AMPosted by Pouncey
...They released a comic about events decades in the future?

Way to spoil any time you ever put those characters in peril! (hint: they survive)


Only the last two pages are about the future and they only show an aged Anduin being called High King for the final assault against the legion, you can see other Alliance races, but other than one other important character, the rest are randoms.

There's no horde as this is the future.
Agreed. The writing could use to be less human centric and the other races seen as more than just side acts.

The high king never made sense. Of the alliance leaders Varian had nearly no military command experience and his son even less. It should have been a council of leaders to begin with. It makes far more sense given the backgrounds of each race and their general relationships.
08/15/2016 10:05 AMPosted by Amaer
08/15/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Infernalism
But, I honestly never saw any reason why a race of 10,000 year old Night Elves, other long-lived races like Dwarves, would bother listening to someone who's likely younger than some of their clothes.

Dwarves live about as long as humans.
Gnomes live shorter lives than humans.
Worgen ARE humans.
Draenei live immeasurably longer than everyone else. Last I saw, Velen is 60,000+ years old.


Gnomes live to 200-300 years old. Dwarves are about 150-200 and Humans live about as long their not video game counterparts.
08/15/2016 11:16 AMPosted by Aerita
Of the alliance leaders Varian had nearly no military command experience


Lol wut. He had military experience since he was young, he was the one who lead the fight in Northrend on the Alliance side.

08/15/2016 11:24 AMPosted by Odyr
Gnomes live to 200-300 years old. Dwarves are about 150-200 and Humans live about as long their not video game counterparts.


Weren't that RPG numbers? the RPG stuff was made noncanon so I guess we don't know really.
Tyrande always came across as stubborn and poor at adapting to change. Her long age felt like it was painted more as a liability (something that made her obstinate and set in her ways) rather than an asset. The long lives of Night Elves in general did not paint them as having gained wisdom from it. Mostly it made them look complacent. (Nearly 10,000 years of peace to prepare, and when things finally happened, they were caught with their pants down).

If they hadn't been imprisoning Illidan that whole time, and instead had let Illidan lead their efforts to prepare for the Burning Legion for a couple thousand years, I bet the Night Elves would have been prepared in WarCraft 3. Super prepared.
Lol wut. He had military experience since he was young, he was the one who lead the fight in Northrend on the Alliance side.


Hiding in lorderon learning to fight does not count as military experience. He was a child with no military experience except as a gladiator when he got abducted. Afterward he did the military campaign in northrend...sorta...most of the major military stuff was handled by his commanders or the argent crusade. He appears and seems to play part in the events post wraith gate and throwing a hissy fit before Ulduar.

Compared to magni/half a dozen elven generals or dranei his resume was a joke.
08/15/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Asthas
The position seemed like a military role anyway. There wasn't really much indication Varian was ever making domestic policy decisions for the other races.

It makes sense to have a central authority figure for military operations.


Then put a general in charge of it. Don't crown someone supreme ruler of all Alliance races and call it a day.
08/15/2016 11:44 AMPosted by Bomdanil
08/15/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Asthas
The position seemed like a military role anyway. There wasn't really much indication Varian was ever making domestic policy decisions for the other races.

It makes sense to have a central authority figure for military operations.


Then put a general in charge of it. Don't crown someone supreme ruler of all Alliance races and call it a day.


The fantasy genre is full of warrior kings that are versed in military and domestic matters.

What I'm getting at is that why you might be able to argue someone else would be even more qualified, Varian would be qualified through his own previous command experience.

In truth there are politics at play too, I'm sure, as opposed to pure merit.
08/15/2016 10:51 AMPosted by Randalthor
08/15/2016 10:46 AMPosted by Pouncey
...

...They released a comic about events decades in the future?

Way to spoil any time you ever put those characters in peril! (hint: they survive)


That comic also suggests that the war against the Legion is still being fought decades in the future and unless Blizzard intends for the next 20 WoW expansions to all be about fighting the Legion then odds are events won't play out the same way ;)


Then why make the comic at all if it doesn't actually tell us anything?

08/15/2016 10:59 AMPosted by Averyx
High King is a military title for all intents and purposes. Heck questing in MoP and WoD tell you races still move on their own.

In any case people clamoring for Tyrande only because she has Thousands of years don't understand one thing. In those thousands of years she fought mainly the same enemies. Night elf society was stale, they stayed on their homeland fighting against trolls, centaurs and harpies. Draenei kept running away because the naa'ru told them so and only fought the Legion and orcs. However you see it, the only race that has actually fought a varied number of enemies on the last 30 years have been humans.

They fought the old horde, the legion, the trolls, the scourge, the night elves, other humans, the naga, the elves and all of that before WoW begun.

Night elves lived in a bubble without challenges because they were so dominant, they didn't advance with the world, humans did however, they had constant threats, constant movement. Their military theory-crafting should be far superior to a race that hasn't advanced.

Remember that is not the quantity of time the races have, but the quality. And while it's true that Nelves fought the legion basically alone in the past, how many thousands of years have passed? the Legion has evolved and they haven't and they can't possibly remember all in perfection.


Did the Night Elves and Centaurs/Trolls/Harpies really fight every battle the same way? For 10,000 years? Not a single attempt at something new? The Centaurs and Trolls and Harpies really kept attacking the Night Elves the same way, and dying in the same way, and then the survivors looked at the results and said, "Yes, let's try that same thing that didn't work again"? For ten, THOUSAND years?

Give them some credit. They absolutely tried new tactics. The Night Elves had to adapt to those tactics to defeat them better, and thus began a 10,000 year long arms race.

The idea that the Night Elves never had to change anything they did in that time period suggests a degree of military idiocy in every faction involved normally reserved for myself in the Warhammer 40k tabletop game.

Also it hasn't been 10,000 years since the Night Elves last fought the Legion. It's been less than 20. Night Elves fought at the Battle for Mount Hyjal. And that's if you don't count players and Sentinels fighting in Outland against Illidan's demons.

08/15/2016 10:46 AMPosted by Pouncey
...They released a comic about events decades in the future?

Way to spoil any time you ever put those characters in peril! (hint: they survive)


Only the last two pages are about the future and they only show an aged Anduin being called High King for the final assault against the legion, you can see other Alliance races, but other than one other important character, the rest are randoms.

There's no horde as this is the future.


Okies, so we know Anduin lives through everything in the next X decades.
08/15/2016 11:44 AMPosted by Bomdanil
Then put a general in charge of it. Don't crown someone supreme ruler of all Alliance races and call it a day.


But he wasn't supreme ruler. High King was a bad name for the title, but everything just indicates he was overseer of the military forces of the Aliance joint effort.

08/15/2016 11:38 AMPosted by Aerita
Hiding in lorderon learning to fight does not count as military experience. He was a child with no military experience except as a gladiator when he got abducted. Afterward he did the military campaign in northrend...sorta...most of the major military stuff was handled by his commanders or the argent crusade. He appears and seems to play part in the events post wraith gate and throwing a hissy fit before Ulduar.

Compared to magni/half a dozen elven generals or dranei his resume was a joke.


Uh, Varian traveled all across the human lands to help protect and fight for his kingdom after they rebuilt Stormwind, fighting both orcs and the scourge. He was also taught by the best commander sin Lordaeron. Wrath gate was at the very beginning of the Northrend campaign, while we don't see much of him due gameplay, lore-wise we know he is the mind leading the entire Alliance operation. He also re-claimed Ironforge from the Dark Iron and fought the Horde back during the Ashenvale assault.

Did the Night Elves and Centaurs/Trolls/Harpies really fight every battle the same way? For 10,000 years? Not a single attempt at something new? The Centaurs and Trolls and Harpies really kept attacking the Night Elves the same way, and dying in the same way, and then the survivors looked at the results and said, "Yes, let's try that same thing that didn't work again"? For ten, THOUSAND years?

Give them some credit. They absolutely tried new tactics. The Night Elves had to adapt to those tactics to defeat them better, and thus began a 10,000 year long arms race.

The idea that the Night Elves never had to change anything they did in that time period suggests a degree of military idiocy in every faction involved normally reserved for myself in the Warhammer 40k tabletop game.

Also it hasn't been 10,000 years since the Night Elves last fought the Legion. It's been less than 20. Night Elves fought at the Battle for Mount Hyjal. And that's if you don't count players and Sentinels fighting in Outland against Illidan's demons.


The Night elves were completely dominant. The other races were like the Kobolds fighting against stormwind for them, not really a challenge and not really something that gives them a lot of credit. They had peace. I think they biggest war was the war of the sands which was really important for sure, but for the most part they haven't really fought as many varied enemies as the humans or Dwarves.

And yeah, the part about Hyjal is true (also they fought the legion again during TBC) but I was mentioning mostly before they met humans, orcs and the rest of the protagonist races.

We see the Nelves society hasn't really changed much since old times, their druids mostly sleep and help the emerald dream, but they stayed within their lands,they weren't conquerors. Which is not bad, but it does represent lesser military evolution than a race that had to adapt to many enemies even if it was in shorter periods of time. (Think European nations vs Mesoamerican empires, Europe evolved a lot because they had to adapt to many types of wars and enemies, while the empires in the american continent were dominant thus their military evolution was lesser)

I do agree that in general Draenei and Night elves have more experience against The Legion, not only military wise but also in a personal level. I would very much like to see Jarod Shadowsong and other Night elf and Draenei commanders take the fight against the legion from now onwards as the heads. What I defend however is the election of Wrynn as the military leader in a general sense. Fighting things that are not the legion, like the Horde or the Scourge.

Now that the Fight is the legion however, I do wish and think that Nelves and Draenei should be prioritized over other races as the leaders.
08/15/2016 11:49 AMPosted by Asthas
08/15/2016 11:44 AMPosted by Bomdanil
...

Then put a general in charge of it. Don't crown someone supreme ruler of all Alliance races and call it a day.


The fantasy genre is full of warrior kings that are versed in military and domestic matters.

What I'm getting at is that why you might be able to argue someone else would be even more qualified, Varian would be qualified through his own previous command experience.

In truth there are politics at play too, I'm sure, as opposed to pure merit.


Oh. So we don't want the best person for the job of being supreme commander of the entire Alliance military, just a guy who's kinda qualified.

And yes. There are absolutely politics at play. And those politics are summed up as: "Humans and Orcs are the primary races in World of Warcraft, everyone else is secondary."
08/15/2016 10:51 AMPosted by Randalthor
08/15/2016 10:46 AMPosted by Pouncey
...

...They released a comic about events decades in the future?

Way to spoil any time you ever put those characters in peril! (hint: they survive)


That comic also suggests that the war against the Legion is still being fought decades in the future and unless Blizzard intends for the next 20 WoW expansions to all be about fighting the Legion then odds are events won't play out the same way ;)


Or perhaps that comic is setting up WarCraft 4, would be cool to have a new WarCraft RTS
08/15/2016 11:59 AMPosted by Pouncey
<span class="truncated">...</span>

The fantasy genre is full of warrior kings that are versed in military and domestic matters.

What I'm getting at is that why you might be able to argue someone else would be even more qualified, Varian would be qualified through his own previous command experience.

In truth there are politics at play too, I'm sure, as opposed to pure merit.


Oh. So we don't want the best person for the job of being supreme commander of the entire Alliance military, just a guy who's kinda qualified.

And yes. There are absolutely politics at play. And those politics are summed up as: "Humans and Orcs are the primary races in World of Warcraft, everyone else is secondary."


Having so many different cultures come together and agree on a commander under 100% objective merit based criteria wouldn't be plausible.

Which of the races are you asserting is above politics, by the way, to make an unbiased recommendation?
Speaking of the Alliance and a military position, does anyone else think the next step for the adventurer is that role?

Lorewise you're a badass who is finally getting recognition. You've recently been Commander and General of the Alliance/Horde forces on Draenor, now you're leading your entire class against the biggest Legion invasion ever and you've got artifact weapons making you even more of a legend.

If they continue to make the PC matter, and I hope they do, I could see both factions being broken after Legion and in the next expansion you bring yours back together. That'd be a fun expansion honestly, you could do some more revamping to the old world to show it, putting all of it in play as you try to mend fences and reconnect with allies. Obviously you'd need some sort of villain, maybe N'Zoth finally decides to attack after we're broken from the Legion invasion. I don't know.
08/15/2016 09:41 AMPosted by Infernalism
Not an Alliance player, so bear that in mind.

But, I honestly never saw any reason why a race of 10,000 year old Night Elves, other long-lived races like Dwarves, would bother listening to someone who's likely younger than some of their clothes.

By all rights and logic, Tyrande should be leader of their military forces, with a political council for those kinds of non-military decisions to make.


So far this is the most logical post, but I will point something out.

Tyrande consulted Varian for his council as much as he did the other leaders. I believe he knew full well Tyrande was far more capable than him in that regard but I don't think Tyrande wanted to rule over every alliance race. Can you see her trying to rule over a kingdom of beer and explosion loving dwarves? xDDD

Think of it like a Democracy of sorts. Everybody gets a voice even if one person is named the leader for dire situations. Look at the throne room when Varian's funeral is happening. Anduin already seeks out the council of others even though he's technically the leader. Not because he's young, I think we all know he's wise beyond his age. But because he wants and needs their input.

I rambled so I hope I made sense. xD
08/15/2016 10:59 AMPosted by Averyx

Night elves lived in a bubble without challenges because they were so dominant, they didn't advance with the world, humans did however, they had constant threats, constant movement. Their military theory-crafting should be far superior to a race that hasn't advanced.

[/quote]

War of the Ancients.
War of the Shifting Sands.
Satyr Wars.

Along with 10 thousand years of basically being the only super-power on the continent of Kalimdor.

I'd say they are in a good position to lead.

But Velen is not a military leader. Tyrande IS and has experience doing so.
.


Tyrande defers military matters to both Shandris and Shadowsong.
But it is pretty moot, since we're kind of stuck with Greymane, whose results in military matters are kinda... spotty.

LIterally built a wall before building walls was a meme.

08/15/2016 12:15 PMPosted by Thalter
Speaking of the Alliance and a military position, does anyone else think the next step for the adventurer is that role?

Lorewise you're a badass who is finally getting recognition. You've recently been Commander and General of the Alliance/Horde forces on Draenor, now you're leading your entire class against the biggest Legion invasion ever and you've got artifact weapons making you even more of a legend.

[/quote]
Yeah, i don't want them to yank the rug out from under us on this again. They couldn't manage to keep the players the focus for even half of the PvE content of WoD before we were kicked aside for the latest anointed Mary 'Yrell' Sue (Invasion of Shattrah) and Mr. No-Mage-Can-Do-What-I-Can Khadgar.
I think we can all agree that Anduin shouldn't be High King. At least not for now.

08/15/2016 12:30 PMPosted by Palantyr
Along with 10 thousand years of basically being the only super-power on the continent of Kalimdor.

I'd say they are in a good position to lead.


This is the problem, they were the dominant race, without contest, without conquest either they were just there. They fought some major wars for sure (they also fought the troll empire), but for thousands of years they were only dominant, the only super power as you say. They were stale.

Humans and Dwarves on the other hand were fighting all kinds of wars and threats during that time, they weren't military and culturally stale, they were in constant improvement and pressure. As time goes on, and you have no challenge, you don't improve and this happened to our elvish Friends. Now however, they are advancing with the world alongside the rest of the races.

08/15/2016 12:27 PMPosted by Jiilan
Think of it like a Democracy of sorts. Everybody gets a voice even if one person is named the leader for dire situations. Look at the throne room when Varian's funeral is happening. Anduin already seeks out the council of others even though he's technically the leader. Not because he's young, I think we all know he's wise beyond his age. But because he wants and needs their input.

I rambled so I hope I made sense. xD


This, Varian was no dictator, he did take council and advice, as we see during the pre-WoD animated series.
Just for some lore notes on the title itself...

The title "High King" is more akin to the title "Supreme Commander" that was held by Anduin Lothar, being the commander of the Grand Alliance's armed forces. It doesn't serve to denote "rule", "legal authority", or any kind of faction-wide political control over the civilians of the races that make up the Alliance itself (outside of the case where Varian was the High King of the Alliance, and the King of Stormwind, making him the leader of the humans of Stormwind, obviously).

We've discussed this a lot in the past, but the title and position of "High King" fits thematically with the Alliance - being an alliance formed originally around allegiances to human kingdoms.

Much like the Warchief of the Horde serving a military role, the High King acts to try to coordinate the forces that he is given leave to command (races of the Alliance can refuse to commit forces to the High King). This does not necessarily mean that the entire group agrees with the High King at all times, but they do recognize and understand the need for organized military intervention.

You may suggest that the humans should not have the title of High King, but as said above, there is a historical anchor within the Human Kingdoms for commanding the militaries of the Alliance, and they do believe they are better served by these Kingdoms than they would be by a Republic or Democracy.

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