The Horde playing Second Fiddle to Alliance?

Story Forum
Prev 1 5 6 7 8 Next
08/29/2016 04:18 AMPosted by Ellssa
Ehh, Jaina "I don't know how neutrality works" Proudmoore had already helped the Alliance and broken neutrality by helping them defend the divine bell

The Kirin Tor is not neutral when it comes to their national mission statement of "Keep the bad magic stuff on lockdown". Dalaran has decided that it's purpose as a nation is to defend the well-being of Azeroth. The Alliance just happens to align with that objective more often than the Horde.
08/29/2016 11:14 AMPosted by Mythelm
Wasn't she holding onto it in order to stop either side from using it?
No. If Jaina had taken the Bell and held it in Dalaran or some other location from anyone getting access to it, then that is what she would have been doing, Which would have been neutral.

What Jaina did do, is another great example of "I'm neutral" from Jaina which is help the Alliance defend the Bell in an Alliance capital while actively working against the Horde.
08/29/2016 01:22 AMPosted by Galath
And Aethas is responsible for the Sunreavers that betrayed Dalaran.

There is another side to this story if Aethas didn't resist arrest, for a crime he DID commit, then the purge wouldn't have happened. The blood of the Sunreavers is on his hands too. No one came out of Dalaran clean.


What crime? He returned to Dalaran and Jaina ambushed him before even allowing him to explain himself or tell her what had happened.

Also he didn't resist arrest. Jaina banished him and the Sunreavers then when he refused she just captured him and ordered the purge. Jaina had no right to detain him or kick out the Sunreavers anyway. Jaina acted without the vote of the council.

You cant blame him for the illegal actions of Jaina.

08/29/2016 11:32 AMPosted by Wreave
Its how the Horde blame game works. When the Horde uses a WMD (the Mana bomb), then it's Garrosh who is responsible, not the Horde. But when Jaina sequesters the Divine Bell in Darnassus (with a people who will NOT use it), then its an attack on the Horde, not on Garrosh.


Garrosh kept it secret from 99% of the Horde so yes Garrosh and those he had develop and deliver the bomb get all the blame not the Horde.
08/29/2016 11:56 AMPosted by Ellssa
08/29/2016 11:14 AMPosted by Mythelm
Wasn't she holding onto it in order to stop either side from using it?
No. If Jaina had taken the Bell and held it in Dalaran or some other location from anyone getting access to it, then that is what she would have been doing, Which would have been neutral.

What Jaina did do, is another great example of "I'm neutral" from Jaina which is help the Alliance defend the Bell in an Alliance capital while actively working against the Horde.
I again think the contention is meaningless in that she was acting on her own and not through the Kirin Tor. Jaina didn't use city/Kirin Tor resources to secure Darnassus, as far as I know. Whereas the Horde who stole the Bell did so using Dalaran's portal network.
Wasn't this originally a Legion thread, and now it's been sidetracked to be about Jaina and the Purge.
08/29/2016 12:30 PMPosted by Esden
Wasn't this originally a Legion thread, and now it's been sidetracked to be about Jaina and the Purge.


She's a hatesink. Shouldn't be that surprising.

Oh and a dreadlord. A hatesink dreadlord.
08/29/2016 12:28 PMPosted by Maethelros
I again think the contention is meaningless in that she was acting on her own and not through the Kirin Tor. Jaina didn't use city/Kirin Tor resources to secure Darnassus, as far as I know. Whereas the Horde who stole the Bell did so using Dalaran's portal network.


The Leader of a neutral faction helping one side fight the other side is in no way, at all, neutral.

"Certain members of the Kirin Tor have put their allegiance to the Horde above the order, and I will NOT tolerate it. This is nothing short of a betrayal."

Jaina's own words...

How is Jaina putting her allegiance to the Alliance above the order any different than some random Sunreaver making a portal? She is just a massive hypocrite.
Fact check. Garrosh set the Sunreavers up for down fall per Lor'themar's story, because he found out Lor'themar and Varian were talking. Aethas was cowed by Ishi and confronted by Jania soon afterwards. It's not likely that Sunreavers were complicit, but Blood Elf agents loyal to Garrosh. After all Fanlyrn or whatever was suppose to cover the PC's tracks.

With that said, Lor'themar and Rommath should have had a little sit down Khadgar and council before anything else. Seeing how they were both pretty p.o.ed after learning about the Purge.
08/29/2016 12:39 PMPosted by Ellssa
The Leader of a neutral faction helping one side fight the other side is in no way, at all, neutral.
A leader, in her own capacity. If the president personally shoots someone, you wouldn't say America declared war on this person. If Joe Biden was out building bunkers in North Korea himself, you wouldn't just say America was allying with North Korea.

08/29/2016 12:39 PMPosted by Ellssa
"Certain members of the Kirin Tor have put their allegiance to the Horde above the order, and I will NOT tolerate it. This is nothing short of a betrayal."

Jaina's own words...

How is Jaina putting her allegiance to the Alliance above the order any different than some random Sunreaver making a portal? She is just a massive hypocrite.
Because the Sunreavers didn't just 'make a portal' in this case. They used the resources of the Kirin Tor itself. She didn't betray the order because she helped them on her own time on her own.
08/29/2016 11:32 AMPosted by Wreave
Its how the Horde blame game works. When the Horde uses a WMD (the Mana bomb), then it's Garrosh who is responsible, not the Horde. But when Jaina sequesters the Divine Bell in Darnassus (with a people who will NOT use it), then its an attack on the Horde, not on Garrosh.


I'm not sure this is a double standard, so much as you being unable to keep track of your argument.

Garrosh used a WMD on Theramore with minimal aid from other members of the Horde and no awareness by the rest of the Horde's leadership. Garrosh gets blamed for the WMD attack on Theramore.

Jaina used a WMD on Orgrimmar with no aid from other members of the Alliance and no awareness of the rest of the Alliance's leadership. Jaina gets blamed for the WMD attack on Orgrimmar.

What you would like to do is blame all of the Horde for Garrosh's actions, and you think it's fair to do so because people who play Horde blame Jaina for attacking Orgrimmar.

And to further illustrate the nature of the double standard here. I have to emphasize, people who play Horde blame Jaina for trying to destroy Orgrimmar utterly. Nobody in universe blames Jaina for that, or for all the innocents Theramore slaughtered during their invasion of Southern Barrens, or all of the innocents they intended to slaughter during their invasion of Durotar. Jaina is never held responsible for anything she's done against the Horde, even by the Horde, because to do so would be to hold the Alliance responsible, and that would make the game unenjoyable for Alliance players.
08/29/2016 12:30 PMPosted by Esden
Wasn't this originally a Legion thread, and now it's been sidetracked to be about Jaina and the Purge.


I started this thread about how the horde is playing second fiddle to the Alliance. My main case was how the alliance took the main assault against guldan and how despite their DISGUSTING assault on the Sunreavers we had to give away A BLOOD ELVEN artfiact to even be allowed back in the city. Not represented on the council as we should be, to simply be "allowed" back in the graces of !@#$ing Kirin Tor.

Blizzard is writing the Horde into a Corner here our new Warchief while a badass in her own right is a Villain from the Alliance Perspective one who attacked the Gilneans and then apparently left them to die at the Broken Shore. The Alliance call us Cowards and disrespect us despite the fact that we ALSO lost our !@#$ing Warchief on the Broken Shores. Yea though blame and insult us make us out the be the Villains despite the fact that the Legion needs to be killed. They made the Horde look like total !@#$ing cowards and gave the Alliance the matryed leader to rally behind.
"Second fiddle" is such an ugly way of putting it. Try thinking of it as the Horde playing bass instead!
08/29/2016 12:25 AMPosted by Mystheal
08/29/2016 12:20 AMPosted by Scryll
And yet they are explicitly labeled "Silvermoon Mage." And Anduin is an unreliable narrator. He has absolutely no way to know, one way or another, he can only go by what other characters, biased characters like Jaina, tell him.


I don't think it is said that Jaina is the one who told him.


I didn't say it was, I just used her as one perfectly plausible source. I said "other characters."

Also the quest giver directly says:

Furthermore, the Sunreavers of Dalaran are risking their neutrality by assisting the Horde with this operation.


It's simple that the sunreavers were involved.


Since the quest-giver is part of Garrosh's Horde, and we know that Garrosh was actively trying to cast blame onto the Sunreavers by later Word of God, that statement becomes suspect. Sunreavers could have been involved, and they could also not have been involved. Blizzard deliberately made it murky, providing sources with conflicting statements, the way they love to do.
08/29/2016 01:20 PMPosted by Aerfist
My main case was how the alliance took the main assault against guldan
Every role in combat is important. Some would argue protecting the flank is even more-so than the vanguard.
08/29/2016 01:20 PMPosted by Aerfist
and how despite their DISGUSTING assault on the Sunreavers
That was Jaina, at the time acting for the Kirin Tor.
08/29/2016 01:20 PMPosted by Aerfist
we had to give away A BLOOD ELVEN artfiact to even be allowed back in the city.
I mean, can't you just play as a Blood Elf and enjoy the artifact? Not even mentioning it was technically Kael'thas' weapon and he ended up serving the Burning Legion. Going even further, he lost the weapon to the Lich King, so he even more likely should have ownship. Race/factions don't have some weird racial inheritance program. Also, the Sunreavers didn't have to give back an artifact. Aethas was the only one still barred and had to help in order to get back in.
Not represented on the council as we should be to simply be "allowed" back in the graces of !@#$ing Kirin Tor.
The council represents Dalaran, not the Alliance or Horde. Jaina isn't on the council and none of those remaining represent the Alliance either. Veressa, leader of the Silver Covenant, was never on the council.
Aethas used the city to help the Horde.

Instead Aethas feigned loyalty, but abused their positions for other loyalties.

08/29/2016 04:18 AMPosted by Ellssa
Ehh, Jaina "I don't know how neutrality works" Proudmoore had already helped the Alliance and broken neutrality by helping them defend the divine bell so her crying about a couple mages making portals is pretty hypocritical.
And this ties in with the other examples I've used. Jaina strengthened the Darnassus, as far as I know, using her own magic. Yet, Aethas used Dalaran's portal network to circumvent her defenses.


You have a VERY inaccurate view of what Aethas knew and did. He was not involved in the theft of the Bell. At all. He did not help the Horde. He did not help steal the Bell. He did nothing with the portal network. He did not feign loyalty, he was loyal to Dalaran and the Kirin Tor. Aethas discovered the activity in mid-theft, confronted the player and the blademaster accompanying us, and fled after being threatened. He was craven and demonstrated he should not be on the Council of Six. When next we see him, he was at the portal with war-magi to protect him from the mean orc, but we'd already accomplished our goal and left so the next person through was Jaina. But he did not, in any way, take action to support the Horde and betray Dalaran.

08/29/2016 09:51 AMPosted by Enenra
08/29/2016 09:32 AMPosted by Galath
On top of that Humans appear to be immune/resistant to arcane addiction.


I don't think that's quite true. I mean, there's a quest in Winterspring all about a human becoming corrupted by a powerful source of magic, isn't there?


Don't forget the washed-out mage in the Dalaran sewers, who we see again selling us those portal-seeds for our Sunsong Farm in MoP.

08/29/2016 11:05 AMPosted by Wreave
08/28/2016 10:30 PMPosted by Biraelenn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOelkJGOBRY

She totally kills Sunreavers who do not fight back while she apprehends Aethas.

Those Sunreavers werent even resisting

They pulled their weapons on the sovereign leader of the city.


You mean they held staves in their hands which they were holding before she ever showed up? Inimical!

Pretty much a death sentence right there. Imagine the president going to offices of a possibly corrupt senator, and that senators guards pull their weapons on the president.


Imagine instead the President visiting a military base and his secret service detail gunning down the guards in front, because their duty involves keeping their rifles in hand.

08/29/2016 11:14 AMPosted by Mythelm
08/29/2016 04:18 AMPosted by Ellssa
Ehh, Jaina "I don't know how neutrality works" Proudmoore had already helped the Alliance and broken neutrality by helping them defend the divine bell so her crying about a couple mages making portals is pretty hypocritical.

Also, mentioning how the Horde killed the previous leader of the Kirin Tor, after he broke Dalarans neutrality to defend Theramore, an Alliance city, from the Horde after Jaina's forces launched attacks against the Horde pre-shattering isn't really noteworthy either.
Wasn't she holding onto it in order to stop either side from using it?


She wasn't holding onto it at all, the night elves were. And she specifically said she was warding to protect it from the Horde (not Garrosh). Further, the Horde did not have the slightest reason to trust that it would not be used against them in Alliance hands, night elf or otherwise, whether or not Jaina was involved in protecting it. Jaina herself had tried to use the Focusing Iris against the Horde. The night elves had been willing to exterminate the Horde in the past and there were and are plenty who still wanted to do so.

08/29/2016 11:43 AMPosted by Intaki
08/29/2016 04:18 AMPosted by Ellssa
Ehh, Jaina "I don't know how neutrality works" Proudmoore had already helped the Alliance and broken neutrality by helping them defend the divine bell

The Kirin Tor is not neutral when it comes to their national mission statement of "Keep the bad magic stuff on lockdown". Dalaran has decided that it's purpose as a nation is to defend the well-being of Azeroth. The Alliance just happens to align with that objective more often than the Horde.


Then the Kirin Tor should have taken custody of the artifact.
You have a VERY inaccurate view of what Aethas knew and did.
Not really. I just didn't properly qualify my statements as I assumed certain aspects of what I was talking about were understood. That was my mistake.

Whether or not Aethas aided in these events, which we know out of game that he did not, isn't what I was discussing in relation to Ellssa's quote. We were talking about whether or not Jaina was a hypocrite for judging Aethas/Sunreavers for their aiding the Horde. Jaina and the Kirin Tor think the Sunreavers aided with the theft and Aethas was, at best, ignoring them on purpose at the time.

I didn't mean to imply he truly was or did these actions. Just in-so-far as how Jaina isn't a hypocrite based on her perception of the events.
08/29/2016 03:43 PMPosted by Maethelros
Whether or not Aethas aided in these events, which we know out of game that he did not, isn't what I was discussing in relation to Ellssa's quote. We were talking about whether or not Jaina was a hypocrite for judging Aethas/Sunreavers for their aiding the Horde. Jaina and the Kirin Tor think the Sunreavers aided with the theft and Aethas was, at best, ignoring them on purpose at the time.


Jaina and the Kirin Tor have had years now to investigate these charges. If they still believe these things, then they either didn't bother to investigate, they failed at investigating and drew the wrong conclusions, or investigated but didn't like the conclusions they reached and so are ignoring them.

She didn't have time to investigate before and so acted in haste, fine, the conclusion she jumped to in the Purge of Dalaran, as horrible as it is, can be defended. But to use the theft of the divine bell as justification for any view of Jaina or the Kirin Tor TODAY is to assume they are either incompetent or duplicitous.
08/29/2016 01:20 PMPosted by Aerfist
My main case was how the alliance took the main assault against guldan
Every role in combat is important. Some would argue protecting the flank is even more-so than the vanguard.
08/29/2016 01:20 PMPosted by Aerfist
and how despite their DISGUSTING assault on the Sunreavers
That was Jaina, at the time acting for the Kirin Tor.
08/29/2016 01:20 PMPosted by Aerfist
we had to give away A BLOOD ELVEN artfiact to even be allowed back in the city.
I mean, can't you just play as a Blood Elf and enjoy the artifact? Not even mentioning it was technically Kael'thas' weapon and he ended up serving the Burning Legion. Going even further, he lost the weapon to the Lich King, so he even more likely should have ownship. Race/factions don't have some weird racial inheritance program. Also, the Sunreavers didn't have to give back an artifact. Aethas was the only one still barred and had to help in order to get back in.
Not represented on the council as we should be to simply be "allowed" back in the graces of !@#$ing Kirin Tor.
The council represents Dalaran, not the Alliance or Horde. Jaina isn't on the council and none of those remaining represent the Alliance either. Veressa, leader of the Silver Covenant, was never on the council.


Yes but each individual faction has interests that should be represented while it is. The Sunreavers are mages of Dalaran and Aethas should, given his history as a council member be allowed to return to the council as a way of a concilatory gesture especially given the faction biased power struggle that caused the sunreavers to be evicted in the first place.
08/29/2016 03:49 PMPosted by Gibbet
Jaina and the Kirin Tor have had years now to investigate these charges. If they still believe these things, then they either didn't bother to investigate, they failed at investigating and drew the wrong conclusions, or investigated but didn't like the conclusions they reached and so are ignoring them.
I don't necessarily agree. Because it was confirmed he did look the other way. Something that, even after all this time, he is still guilty of. You can argue whether or not he deserves so much heat for this, but I would say he does.
08/29/2016 03:49 PMPosted by Gibbet
She didn't have time to investigate before and so acted in haste, fine, the conclusion she jumped to in the Purge of Dalaran, as horrible as it is, can be defended. But to use the theft of the divine bell as justification for any view of Jaina or the Kirin Tor TODAY is to assume they are either incompetent or duplicitous.
Today we see Sunreavers allowed back in. But Aethas' compliance is the sticking point against him. His lack of direct action doesn't actually forgive what he did as an important member. And, making matters worse, are probably the fact that Blood Elves later fought their way into Dalaran in the aftermath to rescue some Sunreavers. While not really to blame for that, it is another possible source of animosity.
08/29/2016 03:51 PMPosted by Aerfist
Yes but each individual faction has interests that should be represented while it is. The Sunreavers are mages of Dalaran and Aethas should, given his history as a council member be allowed to return to the council as a way of a concilatory gesture especially given the faction biased power struggle that caused the sunreavers to be evicted in the first place.
That's not really how it works. People are chose to be on the council for a variety of reasons. Again, Varessa Windrunner had interests the leader of the Silver Covenant, but was never a member. No Alliance member is currently on the council (unless you count Khadgar, which I do not).
I don't necessarily agree. Because it was confirmed he did look the other way. Something that, even after all this time, he is still guilty of. You can argue whether or not he deserves so much heat for this, but I would say he does.


08/29/2016 03:43 PMPosted by Maethelros
Whether or not Aethas aided in these events, which we know out of game that he did not, isn't what I was discussing in relation to Ellssa's quote. We were talking about whether or not Jaina was a hypocrite for judging Aethas/Sunreavers for their aiding the Horde. Jaina and the Kirin Tor think the Sunreavers aided with the theft and Aethas was, at best, ignoring them on purpose at the time.


I only requote so that we can establish what the topic it, lest it slip any further.

You had claimed that the Jaina and the Kirin Tor think something that you admit is incorrect. Use of present tense indicates you think they believe that now. I was simply stating that ignorance becomes less and less of a defense the longer you have to correct your ignorance. And at this stage, to be ignorant of the details of such a significant event that occurred within their own city would be gross incompetence.

Now, if you'd like to discuss either of the other two topics you raised. How responsible Aethas alone is for not immediately reporting what he learned to Jaina after she had just killed three of his followers. Or if you would like to argue about this hypothetical raid on Dalaran where Sunreaver prisoners may have been rescued, that's all well and good.

But as you do so, understand whenever you say "Jaina and The Kirin Tor thinks Aethas and his Sunreavers aided in the theft of the bell." it is a statement that you believe that Jaina and the Kirin Tor to be incompetent.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum