Unified Tuning Feedback

Warlock
Hello,

I would like to be blunt and practical in regards to the current state of the Warlock specs. As it stands it is entirely unreasonable to expect any major mechanical changes to any of our specs before patch 7.1 launches. There is just too much work and too much discourse to do it right or even to do it at all. This is just the truth.

The "Calling All Warlocks Voices" thread is a great discussion for changes to better the class and discuss how we want to move forward mechanically. I encourage everyone to provide feedback and participate in that discussion. Every voice matters.

However we need a solution very soon to major problems like AOE, resource generation, and pacing. These issues can actually be addressed through tuning that can be implemented relatively easily and quickly. Changes such as cast times, coefficients, cooldowns, and resource costs.

Example...
Call Dreadstalkers cost reduced from 2 Soul Shards to 0.
Cooldown increases from 15 seconds to 18 seconds.
Damage increased from X% of Spellpower to Y% of Spellpower.

Perhaps that is too much but that is what the discussion part is for. Nevertheless that is a change that can be easily done and delivered shortly after Legion launch.

I would like us as a community to suggest similar changes, discuss which one is the most practical, and agree on the one most suited to our current needs. I will continually look at this thread and copy paste the most "liked" or positively discussed suggestion into this top comment.

Lets all work together to positively change our class in an efficient and practical manner.

Thank you
Personally, my top priority is to fix AOE. This can be done with a few simple tuning changes to Seed Of Corruption.

Reduce Detonation Requirement from SP*3 to SP*2 and all damage sources contribute to Detonation Damage Requirement.
Reduce base cast time to 2.0 seconds.
Increase damage from 120% of Spell Power to 140%.

I think with these changes alone we will have the ability to deal competitive AOE against other classes in a comparative time. Maybe all of this is too much, but if any of these were to be applied please, for the love of David Bowie, let it be the Reduced Detonation Requirement and all damage source contribution. It is so insanely frustrating to do a long cast and then have to sit there and wait even longer for it detonate only to see everything pretty much dead from the Warrior or Mage or instantly bursted everything down.

I want more than anything to be doing Mythic+ dungeons on my Affliction Warlock. But I am seriously afraid that I won't be able to because I cannot even come close to competing with other classes in DPS on AOE because I specced into single target, or even single target because I specced into AOE. No other class has to make such drastic and decisive decisions like we do in regards to talents.

Please just tune us to at least be competitive and viable.
For Demo, (in the short term) a simple matter of mana requirements would make a sizable difference.

I'm sure the answer to that is: 110 will fix it.
08/27/2016 12:06 AMPosted by Korbynn
For Demo, (in the short term) a simple matter of mana requirements would make a sizable difference.


Which spells in particular do you feel are in need of its resources being tuned?
08/27/2016 12:10 AMPosted by Bonespirit
08/27/2016 12:06 AMPosted by Korbynn
For Demo, (in the short term) a simple matter of mana requirements would make a sizable difference.


Which spells in particular do you feel are in need of its resources being tuned?


every mana costing spell in Demo! the rotation, after the devs said the aim was to make it play easier, requires you to keep up DE after every summons. depending on your haste, SB/DB usage will require a LT much more often than other lock specs.

game play for Demo needs to be smoothed out/streamlined so that you don't feel like it is a game of "whack a mole". there have been many suggestions on how to do this. keeping track of demons, empowerment, duration of demons, and mana is not a smooth way to play. add in movement, ramp up and things are even more
"fun"TM.

#justhelpus
08/26/2016 11:56 PMPosted by Bonespirit
Personally, my top priority is to fix AOE.

Same for Destro.

3 shards is too much for RoF.

If they are trying to copy FFXIV SMN's Fester vs Bane system, they have failed.
From a affliction PvP view.Make haunt baseline..swap demonic circle and gateway. Look at the recent int nerf it was overkill. If those changes happen i would be very happy. Almost forgot aff artifact has to be fixed.....The on kill gold traits just makes no sense
08/27/2016 09:50 AMPosted by Xiaren
08/27/2016 12:10 AMPosted by Bonespirit
...

Which spells in particular do you feel are in need of its resources being tuned?


every mana costing spell in Demo! the rotation, after the devs said the aim was to make it play easier, requires you to keep up DE after every summons. depending on your haste, SB/DB usage will require a LT much more often than other lock specs.

game play for Demo needs to be smoothed out/streamlined so that you don't feel like it is a game of "whack a mole". there have been many suggestions on how to do this. keeping track of demons, empowerment, duration of demons, and mana is not a smooth way to play. add in movement, ramp up and things are even more
"fun"TM.

#justhelpus


Lets try to stick to specific changes to specific spells. The goal is to offer feedback about how to specifically tune the current mechanics, not make large scale changes.

Maybe be should look at reducing the mana cost of SB/DB from 6% to maybe 4%? We are casting it the most so any reduction in cost would have the most impact on reducing the time lifetapping. Do you agree?
08/27/2016 09:55 AMPosted by Catbuyer
08/26/2016 11:56 PMPosted by Bonespirit
Personally, my top priority is to fix AOE.

Same for Destro.

3 shards is too much for RoF.

If they are trying to copy FFXIV SMN's Fester vs Bane system, they have failed.


So perhaps reduce the cost from 3 to 2? I honestly have not really played the new legion destro so I am not too familiar with it.

Do you feel that reducing its cast time, cost, and damage, making it a more spammable spell would be better? Example... Cast time reduced from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds, Cost reduced from 3 to 1, damage changed from 50% of spell power*8 over 8 seconds to 100% of spell power*3 over 3 seconds.

As I said I am not very familiar with destruction but is this the area that you'd be interested in?
08/27/2016 11:43 AMPosted by Taintsaint
From a affliction PvP view.Make haunt baseline..swap demonic circle and gateway. Look at the recent int nerf it was overkill. If those changes happen i would be very happy. Almost forgot aff artifact has to be fixed.....The on kill gold traits just makes no sense


Those are definitely changes I would also love to see. Please express that in as many other threads as you can as well.

However, lets try to keep the discussion and suggestions in this thread to specific tuning to specific spells. The goal is to offer a practical and positive change that can be easily and efficiently implemented.

Perhaps a good suggestion would be...

Demonic Gateway's cast time reduced from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds. On Use Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 45 seconds.

This gives us the mobility we desperately need without having to completely swap the talents. Would something like that help achieve what you are looking to change?
08/27/2016 12:14 PMPosted by Poynty
@op - thread added to master list

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748645930


Thank you. I hope this thread will encourage more people to practically look at warlocks and try to work with what we have to provide a positive and immediate solution.
I hope I'm not too late to the party since dev response but here goes nothing:
  • Bring back burning embers and our MoP/WoD mastery. RNG sucks.
  • Chaos bolt needs a huge buff. Its the longest cast time of any spell and its niche of being the strongest spell is no longer there.
  • Incinerate damage feels very underwhelming. Feels like early WoD numbers even at 110.
  • Demonic Circle has absolutely no place in the talents. Revert it to baseline as 2 separate abilities as it once was.
  • Doomguard/Infernal as our big CD is really lame. Bring back dark soul.
  • Would be awesome if conflag was buffed and Shadowburn returned to being a baseline execute.
  • Destro AoE requires too much ramp up and is pretty much nonexistant in PvP. Rain of FIre should not cost shards and should not have a cast time, and Fire and Brimstone was perfect the way it was in MoP pre-charred remains (as a toggle ability.)
  • Backdraft and shadowburn(hopefully as an execute) must be baseline abilities, the spec feels so empty and boring without one or the other.
  • All 3 specs seriously need some baseline cc such as Howl of Terror. Having fear just isn't enough. Not to mention nobody will take mortal coil/shadowfury due to demon skin being so much better.
  • Grimoire of Sacrifice needs to be reverted to what it was in Mop/WoD. And it would be really nice if sacrificing gave the pet ability again.
  • I would also like to add that Demonic Gateway at 40 yards feels really underwhelming. The old MoP 70 yard gateway would feel amazing and would help a ton in pvp with the amount of mobility all melee currently have.
    You are bring up some good points and I encourage you to post them in other discussions. The changes you have mentioned are major and would require a lot of time and work to implement. For the purpose of this thread we should focus on formulating changes to the current mechanics so that they may be implemented quickly and efficiently.

    Allow me to try to translate your comments into changes that can be done through tuning.

    08/27/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    Bring back burning embers and our MoP/WoD mastery. RNG sucks.


    I agree. But changing the entire resource system would take some time. Perhaps reducing Chaos Bolt's resource cost from 2 soul shards to 1 would help make the spec feel more fluid.
    As for the mastery perhaps having a minimum amount of additional damage would help stabilize the RNG. So for the base mastery change it from Your spells deal a random amount of additional damage, up to 24% to Your spells deal a random amount of additional damage between 18% to 24%.

    08/27/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    Chaos bolt needs a huge buff. Its the longest cast time of any spell and its niche of being the strongest spell is no longer there.


    I agree. 3 seconds is too long, perhaps reducing the cast time from 3 seconds to 2.5 seconds would be enough to get it more in line with our rotation. As well as the above mentioned reduction in soul shard costs.

    08/27/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    Incinerate damage feels very underwhelming. Feels like early WoD numbers even at 110.


    Perhaps increasing the damage from 170% of spell power to 190% of spell power would be enough to bring the damage up to a level you'd feel comfortable with?

    08/27/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    Demonic Circle has absolutely no place in the talents. Revert it to baseline as 2 separate abilities as it once was.


    I agree. However this isn't something that can be done before 7.1 launches. I have actually already made a suggestion to tune demonic gateway to be more competitive with demonic circle.
    08/27/2016 01:03 PMPosted by Bonespirit
    Demonic Gateway's cast time reduced from 3 seconds to 1.5 seconds. On Use Cooldown reduced from 90 seconds to 45 seconds.


    08/27/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    Doomguard/Infernal as our big CD is really lame. Bring back dark soul.


    This isn't really something that can be done within the next few weeks. Perhaps changing the soul shard cost from 1 to 0, reducing the cooldown from 3 minutes to 2 minutes, and maybe even increasing the damage would be enough to at least make the spells feel more like a real cooldown rather than just a thing to press.

    08/27/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    Would be awesome if conflag was buffed and Shadowburn returned to being a baseline execute.


    Perhaps reducing the cost of conflagrate from 2 soul shards to 0 would be enough to make it more of a nice generating spell for soul shards and good on the move damage would be sufficient.

    08/27/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    Destro AoE requires too much ramp up and is pretty much nonexistant in PvP. Rain of FIre should not cost shards and should not have a cast time, and Fire and Brimstone was perfect the way it was in MoP pre-charred remains (as a toggle ability.)


    Your rain of fire comments are something many people agree on. But if it was free then it wouldn't be able to do as much damage. So perhaps apply some changes that I suggested earlier...
    08/27/2016 12:48 PMPosted by Bonespirit
    Do you feel that reducing its cast time, cost, and damage, making it a more spammable spell would be better? Example... Cast time reduced from 2 seconds to 1.5 seconds, Cost reduced from 3 to 1, damage changed from 50% of spell power*8 over 8 seconds to 100% of spell power*3 over 3 seconds.


    08/27/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    Backdraft and shadowburn(hopefully as an execute) must be baseline abilities, the spec feels so empty and boring without one or the other.


    Perhaps reducing come cooldowns by a second or two, like I've been suggesting above, would be sufficient in increasing the pace of the spec and making it feel smoother.

    08/27/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    All 3 specs seriously need some baseline cc such as Howl of Terror. Having fear just isn't enough. Not to mention nobody will take mortal coil/shadowfury due to demon skin being so much better.


    Perhaps reducing the cast time of fear from 1.7 to 1.5 and increasing the amount of damage potential before breaking would be enough to feel like we can control our opponents better.

    08/27/2016 01:40 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    Grimoire of Sacrifice needs to be reverted to what it was in Mop/WoD. And it would be really nice if sacrificing gave the pet ability again.


    I usually agree with other's comments. However I actually like the new GoSac, what about it do you not like? Aside from not having command demon anymore.

    Thank you for your time in the discussion, I look forward to discussing these matters further.
    I agree. But changing the entire resource system would take some time. Perhaps reducing Chaos Bolt's resource cost from 2 soul shards to 1 would help make the spec feel more fluid.
    As for the mastery perhaps having a minimum amount of additional damage would help stabilize the RNG. So for the base mastery change it from Your spells deal a random amount of additional damage, up to 24% to Your spells deal a random amount of additional damage between 18% to 24%.

    I feel like it would be better if they removed RNG altogether from the mastery. Give us the previous mastery. And I don't agree on making chaos bolt cost 1 shard. It gets really boring with the charred remains type play style where you just spam chaos bolts one after the other. I would rather it be a bigger, meatier bolt every now and then rather than unloading 5 chaos bolts one after the other.

    I agree. 3 seconds is too long, perhaps reducing the cast time from 3 seconds to 2.5 seconds would be enough to get it more in line with our rotation. As well as the above mentioned reduction in soul shard costs.

    Reverse Entropy already reduces the cast time to 2.5 so we're good on that.

    Perhaps increasing the damage from 170% of spell power to 190% of spell power would be enough to bring the damage up to a level you'd feel comfortable with?

    I believe incinerate is already at 190% spellpower, next patch should raise it to 210%. Even with these buffs, it still feels very underwhelming.

    This isn't really something that can be done within the next few weeks. Perhaps changing the soul shard cost from 1 to 0, reducing the cooldown from 3 minutes to 2 minutes, and maybe even increasing the damage would be enough to at least make the spells feel more like a real cooldown rather than just a thing to press.

    I believe they can do it within the next patch if they wanted to... Unless they completely got rid of every trace of dark soul that was left in their files lol. As for doomguard/infernal I think it would be better if we gained increased damage for their duration or something. Would make it much better imo.

    Your rain of fire comments are something many people agree on. But if it was free then it wouldn't be able to do as much damage.

    I feel rain of fire was perfect in MoP. It had no resource cost besides mana and had no cast time but still managed to do competitive aoe damage

    08/27/2016 07:32 PMPosted by Bonespirit
    I usually agree with other's comments. However I actually like the new GoSac, what about it do you not like? Aside from not having command demon anymore.

    I don't like the rng aoe damage aspect. The previous iteration of GoSac gave us flat buffs and was really good, but the new GoSac does rng aoe that also breaks cc and whatnot.
    08/26/2016 11:48 PMPosted by Bonespirit
    Call Dreadstalkers cost reduced from 2 Soul Shards to 0.

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=132393/recurrent-ritual
    this is a waste of time..

    with the mutiny of warlocks they give a 10% drain life troll buff.
    the choices are:

    ( ) rerol
    ( ) anger and pay for it
    ( ) stop play
    08/27/2016 08:33 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    I feel like it would be better if they removed RNG altogether from the mastery. Give us the previous mastery. And I don't agree on making chaos bolt cost 1 shard. It gets really boring with the charred remains type play style where you just spam chaos bolts one after the other. I would rather it be a bigger, meatier bolt every now and then rather than unloading 5 chaos bolts one after the other.


    We don't know the exact process of implementing changes but I suppose removing the RNG element of the mastery wouldn't be too difficult.
    I do also agree that chaos bolt should feel meaty so perhaps 2 shards is good.

    I will be honest, I have not played even 1 hour of the legion destruction warlock. I personally play Affliction and Demonology exclusively.

    08/27/2016 08:33 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    Reverse Entropy already reduces the cast time to 2.5 so we're good on that.


    Perhaps keep it so it further reduces it down to 2 seconds?

    08/27/2016 08:33 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    I believe incinerate is already at 190% spellpower, next patch should raise it to 210%. Even with these buffs, it still feels very underwhelming.


    Interesting, I am working off of Wowhead coefficients so they may not be up to date on everything. I will start to cross reference with wowdb.
    If a flat damage increase isn't enough then perhaps increasing the proc chance for Dimension Ripper? This will make incinerate itself not the best but allow for other things to flourish.

    08/27/2016 08:33 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    I believe they can do it within the next patch if they wanted to... Unless they completely got rid of every trace of dark soul that was left in their files lol. As for doomguard/infernal I think it would be better if we gained increased damage for their duration or something. Would make it much better imo.


    A goal that is in mind is to stabilize the specs before 7.1 launches so that from 7.1 forward mechanics can be changed and reworked. It is arguably better to be competitive with a weaker rotation than to not be competitive and have a weak rotation.
    A damage increase while the demons are up is a good solution. I personally prefer the idea of doing haste, mastery, or crit depending on your spec but that might be asking for too much.

    08/27/2016 08:33 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    I feel rain of fire was perfect in MoP. It had no resource cost besides mana and had no cast time but still managed to do competitive aoe damage


    Do you think that is too much considering it now stacks?

    08/27/2016 08:33 PMPosted by Twinklypoo
    I don't like the rng aoe damage aspect. The previous iteration of GoSac gave us flat buffs and was really good, but the new GoSac does rng aoe that also breaks cc and whatnot.


    So you would prefer just a basic damage increase over a rng AOE proc?
    Would you be interested in the live gosac but with a short ICD instead? This way our AOE is still stronger when we take it but the RNG element is gone.
    08/27/2016 08:47 PMPosted by Thanatosia
    08/26/2016 11:48 PMPosted by Bonespirit
    Call Dreadstalkers cost reduced from 2 Soul Shards to 0.

    http://www.wowhead.com/item=132393/recurrent-ritual


    As stated by Blizzard themselves, legendary items should not be required to play your spec. There are many things that can be said about the legendary items but we probably shouldn't go into them in this thread. Please offer feedback about the legendary items in a more appropriate thread.
    08/27/2016 08:59 PMPosted by Arescarrega
    this is a waste of time..

    with the mutiny of warlocks they give a 10% drain life troll buff.
    the choices are:

    ( ) rerol
    ( ) anger and pay for it
    ( ) stop play


    Feedback is important no matter what. If we continually request the same things eventually the developers will take notice. There have been many times where people thought it didn't matter to give feedback but in the end we won. See the most recent camera changes.

    Join the Conversation

    Return to Forum