A Treatise of Destruction

Warlock
Update: A blue has finally posted in the Calling All Warlocks 2 thread asking for a collated list of our feedback/concerns. Now is the time for all Destruction Warlocks to begin giving your feedback here so they have a single thread to reference that is dedicated to the spec. Hopefully our Affliction and Demonology brothers follow suit!

After reading and posting in a thread dealing with what we as players might change about the warlock class, http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748864834#post-1 I felt compelled to create a thread for the Destruction spec specifically. A place to post ideas about how one might go about making the spec fun to play, and engaging, while also remaining mature about how we go about making these suggestions. I implore those of you with greater experience in the other two specs to make a thread similar to this one, a place where all warlocks of the particular spec who are passionate about said spec can congregate and work together toward change.

To our brethren who are leaving the class for greener pastures, or leaving WoW completely, we shall keep the torch lit for you.

Now on to the changes, this will be mostly a repost of my comment on the linked thread above, however I'll try to go more in depth about some of the changes I had suggested.

-Soul Shards now perform exactly like Burning Embers used to.
The idea behind this, as I'm sure all of you will understand, is to give us back some form of control over our gameplay. As it currently stands, at my current haste levels (26%) there is a 19 second downtime between when I dump my Conflagrate charges for Roaring Blaze, and when they both have refreshed. This leaves me with 2 soul shards with which to cast Chaos Bolt, which with my gear is 1.6s, adjusting for the GCD this leaves me with ~14.5 seconds of being absolutely 100% at the whim of RNG shard generation. 14.5 seconds of casting incinerate unless I manage to get some RNG love. Nothing we have will smooth this out other than straight RNG proc chances on Soul Conduit, or our 4p T18 bonus, additionally Chaos Bolt costing TWO shards compounds this effect, this is not good gameplay.

-Incinerate functions the same as it did with the original Burning Embers.
This, along with the changes above, give us some control over our shard generation. Now, if we have bad RNG from Immolate, we can at least begin ramping back up to another Chaos Bolt when we spam Incinerate. This will make Incinerate feel like it has purpose, because currently it feels bad to use, it doesn't synergize with anything in our kit.

-Rain of Fire costs 0 Soul Shards, given a cooldown to compensate.
This change is sorely needed, currently unless we talent specifically into AoE options, which greatly reduces our ST output, our only option for AoE is to generate THREE shards and then wait 1.2s (at my haste levels) to cast Rain of Fire and then the NPC's need to sit in the AoE for 6.2s (once again, at my haste levels) in order to deal the actual damage of the ability. What this equates to in an actual AoE situation is 13.4s of required time to deal our AoE damage: Havoc a target, causing a 1.5s GCD, Immolate a target, another 1.5s GCD (Reason being that you would only ever want to Conflagrate if the target was Immolated, and in an AoE situation you want to cleave your Roaring Blaze Immolates) Conflagrate twice in order to build shards which equates to 3s total from the GCD, then 1.2s to cast Rain of Fire, and another 6.2s for them to sit inside the effect to take the total damage. When the vast majority of DPS have MUCH faster AoE capability, it causes us to not truly benefit from the full duration of Rain of Fire since most everything will be dead by the time Rain of Fire manages to tick a third time. This change would allow us to immediately drop Rain of Fire, and then begin Immolating all of the targets and cleaving the Roaring Blaze effect, allowing us to compete in AoE with other classes.

-Chaos Bolt now consumes all Soul Shards you currently have for increased damage for each shard above 2, less damage for casting it at only 1. The Eradication Talent duration is adjusted accordingly.
This change would give some kick back to Chaos Bolt, without changing the scaling you currently have going with the 2 shard cost of Chaos Bolts, giving us the option to save up for a very large Chaos Bolt, or periodically weave it into our rotation for a more average damage output. I think this is a nice middle ground between the players wanting a meaty Chaos Bolt, and your balancing around the 2 shard cost of Chaos Bolt. Obviously the numbers can be adjusted as needed.

-Backdraft is now baseline, duration no longer shortened by haste.
Currently, it feels very punishing to use Backdraft, my buff lasts a mere 3 seconds and if I have to move at all its wasted. This effect needs to be brought back to baseline and preferably on a charge based system so as to not overly punish us for movement.

-Mana Tap is taken out back and shot. It is replaced by Soul Fire, causing your Chaos Bolt to have a % chance based on Soul Shards used to replace your next Incinerate with Soul Fire, dealing increased damage.
It is basically unanimously agreed upon that Mana Tap is an absolutely god awful gameplay element. We don't like it, and we don't want it. I feel like this change would keep within the same realm of what you wanted mana tap to be, the +damage talent of the tier, while also making it somewhat interesting and promoting not just spamming Chaos Bolts. With this in effect, you would want to build the big Chaos Bolts for an increased chance to proc Soul Fire, then cast Incinerate to give that little bit of extra burst with the big Chaos Bolt you just casted, and then start to ramp back up to another Chaos Bolt, Soul Fire combo. It will help to break up the monotony of current Destruction gameplay.

-Fire and Brimstone is now baseline, the talent instead allows it to effect immolate as well, Cataclysm is changed to not apply immolate on targets and instead leave a fissure on the ground dealing additional damage over time.
Fire and Brimstone was a very iconic part of Destruction when it got the much needed revamp in MoP, and many feel that part of the "class fantasy" of being a destruction warlock is our propensity for flashy AoE, our AoE is poor currently and this along with the Rain of Fire change, will alleviate most of the issues in my eyes.

-Grimoire of Sacrifice now gives you the pet ability like it used to, the RNG element has been removed, it now deals a % of the spells damage as bonus shadow damage.
This is a fix to another widely dislike change that came with Legion, removing the pet ability from Sacrifice is hard to swallow, and the RNG nature of the ability is just adding insult to injury. I feel that Destruction Warlocks shouldn't have strong ties to a certain demon, it "feels" more "Destruction Warlock" to sacrifice a demon for greater personal power, so I believe it should be balanced against the other two options.

-Channel Demonfire has been redesigned, it now has no limit to the number of felbolts it shoots. Great synergy with the new Fire and Brimstone talent.
I feel that we should have decent AoE baseline, and be rewarded with fantastic AoE if we decide to forgo ST for it. This change effectively makes the level 100 talent tier a choice between cleave, AoE, and ST while simultaneously rewarding the player for choosing to specialize specifically in AoE with the new Fire and Brimstone. We shouldn't be incompetent in AoE UNLESS we spec into it, we should be phenomenal in AoE if we spec into it.

-Wreak Havoc now changes havoc to only deal a % of the spells damage to the secondary target, so as to better balance our ST damage capabilities without causing compounding cleave issues.
It has been brought up multiple times that our ST damage is lacking because of the current functionality of being able to cleave all of our ST damage onto a secondary target, effectively, permanently. This change would give the devs some breathing room to make us competitive single target damage dealers while also keeping the flavor of Destruction being the cleave king. While many might be sad to see this nerfed, I think it will alleviate a lot of our issues and be a good change all around.

-Summon Doomguard/Infernal has been replaced with Dark Soul: Instability, Lord of Flames artifact trait now calls down 4 infernals when you use Dark Soul: Instability, same cooldown as before. Grimoire of Supremacy gives you the Summon spells back, does not change Lord of Flames however.
I feel as though the big summon spells should stick with Demonology, I have always felt that Destruction was the "Me, me, me" spec. WE want the power, we're selfish enough to dabble in magic that (used to) consume us in a fiery blaze in order to attain greater power, our big cooldown shouldn't be to summon the same demon the other specs get. Our cooldown should revolve around our selfish obsession with personal power, I would also have replaced Lord of Flames with something else to be in parity with this mindset, but I feel as though blizzard is married to the idea and changing Lord of Flames will never happen. So the only way I can get this to feel right in my head canon is that we dabble with such unstable power when we use our cooldown that we tear open rifts to the twisting nether, with which infernals spring forth. Its basically Dimensional Rift but Infernals...

-Demonic Circle is once again baseline, Demon Skin takes Demonic Circle's place in the Talent Tree, Howl of Terror takes Demon Skin's place in the talent tree.
This feels like a massive oversight, I can't believe how this got through testing to be honest. I don't even know how I could elaborate on my thinking behind making these changes, it feels so basic that everyone should understand this one... However, for the developers, I'll give it a shot. The level 45 talent tier is an absolute disaster, for PVE you will almost ALWAYS choose demon skin which makes this tier a non choice, the exact reason you went AWAY from the old school talent trees. This change makes the level 75 talents an actual choice between avoiding damaging mechanics, soaking large damage mechanics or soaking periodic damage mechanics, as well as making the level 45 talents a choice between different forms of crowd control. This is the type of change that you created this talent system FOR, I can't believe these two tiers made it through the alpha let alone the beta.

-Mastery changed to roll x number of times and take the greater result, damage % is adjusted accordingly for balance.
This used to be what the Conflagration of Chaos artifact trait was, and it helped greatly with our feeling of any semblance of control over our damage. It needs to be brought back, mastery shouldn't be worse than versatility, that just feels wrong.

-Shadowfury cast time removed.
This is a fairly obvious change, and I don't think I need to elaborate on this too much. I have heard this many a time from PVP warlocks, we need a way to peel melee off of ourselves or our healers, having a cast time on Shadowfury makes this difficult, as well as interruptible. Our fear is already interruptible, please don't make this stay interruptible as well.

-Roaring Blaze changed to increase Immolate damage by a higher percentage, but also reduce Immolates duration by x seconds. New level 15 talent to take Backdraft's place making Immolate be refreshed when Incinerate damages the target. Incineration honor talent changed to make Incinerate castable while moving, adjust the cast time accordingly.
The attempt with this change is to leave in the Immolate gameplay for those who like it, and give an option to effectively ignore immolate for those who dislike it, balancing between the two would need to be done to make them competitive with each other, which could prove more problematic than its worth, who knows. I feel like this is a good middle ground though, especially with the change to Roaring Blaze, after all, bright stars burn fast. This creates a gameplay of "Do I dump 3 Conflagrates into this Immolate for burst? Or do I only dump 2 for a more 'sustained' approach?" especially considering you the decreased duration of Immolate for every Conflagrate, you wont have all 3 charges back up by the time you need to refresh Immolate. Also, regarding the new talent I proposed, it may not even need to be balanced to be competitive with Roaring Blaze, regarding Demon Blades from the Demon Hunter you have mentioned that it isn't meant to be the top dps option it is meant to be less dps for more ease of use. This change could coincide with that mindset of "Less dps, more ease of use."

-Burning Embers fire aura effect has been returned, based on Soul Shards now, and updated with better graphics.
Now this change is delving into the "Class Fantasy" a bit more, and how it was removed from us for Legion. I would greatly appreciate having my "Class Fantasy" returned to me, and that takes the form of the iconic fire aura we built up as Burning Embers increased. This is an easy change that would go a long way to alleviate much of the feeling of animosity between Warlocks and the Devs/Mages who got our fire aura, as well as returning some MUCH needed visual effects to the "naked" Destruction Warlock spec.

-Green Fire spells have now been updated just like the other fire spells.
Another thing that feels like a huge oversight to me is that every caster got a lot of spell effect updates, and yet the green fire spells still use the old effect animations. It's especially noticeable when looking at the characters hands while casting a fire spell, fire mages have these awesome trails of fire rising from their hands and we just have an old green glow.

This is a rough idea of what I would do with Destruction, the idea is to make there be more synergy and all around "fun" to playing the class optimally. What changes did you like or dislike. What changes would you make? Let's remember to keep it civil, we're all Warlocks here.
That looks amazing. :o I wish. I want. I need.
Your post deserves as much attention as possible. I'm sure all Warlocks in the game would appreciate you laying out the concerns that Warlocks have for Legion.
Link to Destro feedback, so I don't have to repost it all and to help consolidate it:

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748844867#post-1
08/24/2016 01:26 PMPosted by Felrok
Update: A blue has finally posted in the Calling All Warlocks 2 thread asking for a collated list of our feedback/concerns. Now is the time for all Destruction Warlocks to begin giving your feedback here so they have a single thread to reference that is dedicated to the spec. Hopefully our Affliction and Demonology brothers follow suit!

After reading and posting in a thread dealing with what we as players might change about the warlock class, http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748864834#post-1 I felt compelled to create a thread for the Destruction spec specifically. A place to post ideas about how one might go about making the spec fun to play, and engaging, while also remaining mature about how we go about making these suggestions. I implore those of you with greater experience in the other two specs to make a thread similar to this one, a place where all warlocks of the particular spec who are passionate about said spec can congregate and work together toward change.

To our brethren who are leaving the class for greener pastures, or leaving WoW completely, we shall keep the torch lit for you.

Now on to the changes, this will be mostly a repost of my comment on the linked thread above, however I'll try to go more in depth about some of the changes I had suggested.

-Soul Shards now perform exactly like Burning Embers used to.
The idea behind this, as I'm sure all of you will understand, is to give us back some form of control over our gameplay. As it currently stands, at my current haste levels (26%) there is a 19 second downtime between when I dump my Conflagrate charges for Roaring Blaze, and when they both have refreshed. This leaves me with 2 soul shards with which to cast Chaos Bolt, which with my gear is 1.6s, adjusting for the GCD this leaves me with ~14.5 seconds of being absolutely 100% at the whim of RNG shard generation. 14.5 seconds of casting incinerate unless I manage to get some RNG love. Nothing we have will smooth this out other than straight RNG proc chances on Soul Conduit, or our 4p T18 bonus, additionally Chaos Bolt costing TWO shards compounds this effect, this is not good gameplay.

-Incinerate functions the same as it did with the original Burning Embers.
This, along with the changes above, give us some control over our shard generation. Now, if we have bad RNG from Immolate, we can at least begin ramping back up to another Chaos Bolt when we spam Incinerate. This will make Incinerate feel like it has purpose, because currently it feels bad to use, it doesn't synergize with anything in our kit.

-Rain of Fire costs 0 Soul Shards, given a cooldown to compensate.
This change is sorely needed, currently unless we talent specifically into AoE options, which greatly reduces our ST output, our only option for AoE is to generate THREE shards and then wait 1.2s (at my haste levels) to cast Rain of Fire and then the NPC's need to sit in the AoE for 6.2s (once again, at my haste levels) in order to deal the actual damage of the ability. What this equates to in an actual AoE situation is 13.4s of required time to deal our AoE damage: Havoc a target, causing a 1.5s GCD, Immolate a target, another 1.5s GCD (Reason being that you would only ever want to Conflagrate if the target was Immolated, and in an AoE situation you want to cleave your Roaring Blaze Immolates) Conflagrate twice in order to build shards which equates to 3s total from the GCD, then 1.2s to cast Rain of Fire, and another 6.2s for them to sit inside the effect to take the total damage. When the vast majority of DPS have MUCH faster AoE capability, it causes us to not truly benefit from the full duration of Rain of Fire since most everything will be dead by the time Rain of Fire manages to tick a third time. This change would allow us to immediately drop Rain of Fire, and then begin Immolating all of the targets and cleaving the Roaring Blaze effect, allowing us to compete in AoE with other classes.

-Chaos Bolt now consumes all Soul Shards you currently have for increased damage for each shard above 2, less damage for casting it at only 1. The Eradication Talent duration is adjusted accordingly.
This change would give some kick back to Chaos Bolt, without changing the scaling you currently have going with the 2 shard cost of Chaos Bolts, giving us the option to save up for a very large Chaos Bolt, or periodically weave it into our rotation for a more average damage output. I think this is a nice middle ground between the players wanting a meaty Chaos Bolt, and your balancing around the 2 shard cost of Chaos Bolt. Obviously the numbers can be adjusted as needed.

-Backdraft is now baseline, duration no longer shortened by haste.
Currently, it feels very punishing to use Backdraft, my buff lasts a mere 3 seconds and if I have to move at all its wasted. This effect needs to be brought back to baseline and preferably on a charge based system so as to not overly punish us for movement.

-Mana Tap is taken out back and shot. It is replaced by Soul Fire, causing your Chaos Bolt to have a % chance based on Soul Shards used to replace your next Incinerate with Soul Fire, dealing increased damage.
It is basically unanimously agreed upon that Mana Tap is an absolutely god awful gameplay element. We don't like it, and we don't want it. I feel like this change would keep within the same realm of what you wanted mana tap to be, the +damage talent of the tier, while also making it somewhat interesting and promoting not just spamming Chaos Bolts. With this in effect, you would want to build the big Chaos Bolts for an increased chance to proc Soul Fire, then cast Incinerate to give that little bit of extra burst with the big Chaos Bolt you just casted, and then start to ramp back up to another Chaos Bolt, Soul Fire combo. It will help to break up the monotony of current Destruction gameplay.

-Fire and Brimstone is now baseline, the talent instead allows it to effect immolate as well, Cataclysm is changed to not apply immolate on targets and instead leave a fissure on the ground dealing additional damage over time.
Fire and Brimstone was a very iconic part of Destruction when it got the much needed revamp in MoP, and many feel that part of the "class fantasy" of being a destruction warlock is our propensity for flashy AoE, our AoE is poor currently and this along with the Rain of Fire change, will alleviate most of the issues in my eyes.

-Grimoire of Sacrifice now gives you the pet ability like it used to, the RNG element has been removed, it now deals a % of the spells damage as bonus shadow damage.
This is a fix to another widely dislike change that came with Legion, removing the pet ability from Sacrifice is hard to swallow, and the RNG nature of the ability is just adding insult to injury. I feel that Destruction Warlocks shouldn't have strong ties to a certain demon, it "feels" more "Destruction Warlock" to sacrifice a demon for greater personal power, so I believe it should be balanced against the other two options.

-Channel Demonfire has been redesigned, it now has no limit to the number of felbolts it shoots. Great synergy with the new Fire and Brimstone talent.
I feel that we should have decent AoE baseline, and be rewarded with fantastic AoE if we decide to forgo ST for it. This change effectively makes the level 100 talent tier a choice between cleave, AoE, and ST while simultaneously rewarding the player for choosing to specialize specifically in AoE with the new Fire and Brimstone. We shouldn't be incompetent in AoE UNLESS we spec into it, we should be phenomenal in AoE if we spec into it.

-Wreak Havoc now changes havoc to only deal a % of the spells damage to the secondary target, so as to better balance our ST damage capabilities without causing compounding cleave issues.
It has been brought up multiple times that our ST damage is lacking because of the current functionality of being able to cleave all of our ST damage onto a secondary target, effectively, permanently. This change would give the devs some breathing room to make us competitive single target damage dealers while also keeping the flavor of Destruction being the cleave king. While many might be sad to see this nerfed, I think it will alleviate a lot of our issues and be a good change all around.

-Summon Doomguard/Infernal has been replaced with Dark Soul: Instability, Lord of Flames artifact trait now calls down 4 infernals when you use Dark Soul: Instability, same cooldown as before. Grimoire of Supremacy gives you the Summon spells back, does not change Lord of Flames however.
I feel as though the big summon spells should stick with Demonology, I have always felt that Destruction was the "Me, me, me" spec. WE want the power, we're selfish enough to dabble in magic that (used to) consume us in a fiery blaze in order to attain greater power, our big cooldown shouldn't be to summon the same demon the other specs get. Our cooldown should revolve around our selfish obsession with personal power, I would also have replaced Lord of Flames with something else to be in parity with this mindset, but I feel as though blizzard is married to the idea and changing Lord of Flames will never happen. So the only way I can get this to feel right in my head canon is that we dabble with such unstable power when we use our cooldown that we tear open rifts to the twisting nether, with which infernals spring forth. Its basically Dimensional Rift but Infernals...

-Demonic Circle is once again baseline, Demon Skin takes Demonic Circle's place in the Talent Tree, Howl of Terror takes Demon Skin's place in the talent tree.
This feels like a massive oversight, I can't believe how this got through testing to be honest. I don't even know how I could elaborate on my thinking behind making these changes, it feels so basic that everyone should understand this one... However, for the developers, I'll give it a shot. The level 45 talent tier is an absolute disaster, for PVE you will almost ALWAYS choose demon skin which makes this tier a non choice, the exact reason you went AWAY from the old school talent trees. This change makes the level 75 talents an actual choice between avoiding damaging mechanics, soaking large damage mechanics or soaking periodic damage mechanics, as well as making the level 45 talents a choice between different forms of crowd control. This is the type of change that you created this talent system FOR, I can't believe these two tiers made it through the alpha let alone the beta.

-Mastery changed to roll x number of times and take the greater result, damage % is adjusted accordingly for balance.
This used to be what the Conflagration of Chaos artifact trait was, and it helped greatly with our feeling of any semblance of control over our damage. It needs to be brought back, mastery shouldn't be worse than versatility, that just feels wrong.

-Shadowfury cast time removed.
This is a fairly obvious change, and I don't think I need to elaborate on this too much. I have heard this many a time from PVP warlocks, we need a way to peel melee off of ourselves or our healers, having a cast time on Shadowfury makes this difficult, as well as interruptible. Our fear is already interruptible, please don't make this stay interruptible as well.

-Roaring Blaze changed to increase Immolate damage by a higher percentage, but also reduce Immolates duration by x seconds. New level 15 talent to take Backdraft's place making Immolate be refreshed when Incinerate damages the target. Incineration honor talent changed to make Incinerate castable while moving, adjust the cast time accordingly.
The attempt with this change is to leave in the Immolate gameplay for those who like it, and give an option to effectively ignore immolate for those who dislike it, balancing between the two would need to be done to make them competitive with each other, which could prove more problematic than its worth, who knows. I feel like this is a good middle ground though, especially with the change to Roaring Blaze, after all, bright stars burn fast. This creates a gameplay of "Do I dump 3 Conflagrates into this Immolate for burst? Or do I only dump 2 for a more 'sustained' approach?" especially considering you the decreased duration of Immolate for every Conflagrate, you wont have all 3 charges back up by the time you need to refresh Immolate. Also, regarding the new talent I proposed, it may not even need to be balanced to be competitive with Roaring Blaze, regarding Demon Blades from the Demon Hunter you have mentioned that it isn't meant to be the top dps option it is meant to be less dps for more ease of use. This change could coincide with that mindset of "Less dps, more ease of use."

-Burning Embers fire aura effect has been returned, based on Soul Shards now, and updated with better graphics.
Now this change is delving into the "Class Fantasy" a bit more, and how it was removed from us for Legion. I would greatly appreciate having my "Class Fantasy" returned to me, and that takes the form of the iconic fire aura we built up as Burning Embers increased. This is an easy change that would go a long way to alleviate much of the feeling of animosity between Warlocks and the Devs/Mages who got our fire aura, as well as returning some MUCH needed visual effects to the "naked" Destruction Warlock spec.

-Green Fire spells have now been updated just like the other fire spells.
Another thing that feels like a huge oversight to me is that every caster got a lot of spell effect updates, and yet the green fire spells still use the old effect animations. It's especially noticeable when looking at the characters hands while casting a fire spell, fire mages have these awesome trails of fire rising from their hands and we just have an old green glow.

This is a rough idea of what I would do with Destruction, the idea is to make there be more synergy and all around "fun" to playing the class optimally. What changes did you like or dislike. What changes would you make? Let's remember to keep it civil, we're all Warlocks here.


I very much like this idea! The new direction Blizzard is taking with destruction involving more chaotic magics could be really cool, unfortunately they missed the mark with the original mastery. As far as visuals are concerned, I would love some updates to greenfire, but for the time being, just make the gameplay fun for the love of god blizz! Glad we are getting some interaction and responses. I can't wait to see the improvements in the near future!
My BIGGEST gripe with destro atm is its mastery... having a CB do 70k one time and then 190k another time UNDER THE SAME BUFFS is not my idea of fun and can be detrimental to my performance in progression.
As per Orynx's recent post: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748596134?page=16#post-312

I'm going to relist what I dislike about the spec and remove the fix's that I would add.

The binary system of Soul Shards is a step down from the 1-10 gradient of Burning Embers because of the RNG swings it creates.

Incinerate having no interaction with any of our mechanics isn't fun.

Rain of Fire costs too many Soul Shards and takes too long to deal its damage to be useful in an AoE situation when so many other specs have on demand AoE capabilities.

Chaos Bolt does not feel rewarding to use, its damage output feels weak, and therefor I feel weak even if the rest of my toolkit makes up for it.

I don't like how Backdraft is a 5 second buff, decreased by higher levels of haste, this punishes any movement that needs to be made.

I do not like the gameplay provided by Mana Tap, maintaining a % damage buff wasn't fun for druids and it isn't fun for us.

I do not like the removal of Fire and Brimstone from the core spec mechanics, without it our class feels gutted in any AoE situation without directly talenting back into it, which then makes me weak in any single target encounter. Most other specs don't have this problem.

I do not like the removal of the pet ability when sacrificing my demon, nor do I like the RNG nature of the damage the ability procs, while good for AoE, it doesn't feel fun.

Channel Demonfire feels awkward to use, especially when paired with Havoc, we want to have immolate rolling on as many targets as we can, but if we do, Channel Demonfire feels weak. Where as Soul Conduit works well for single target as well as AoE. (As a side note, I dislike the animation, tiny little fel darts don't feel "powerful")

Wreak Havoc seems like it's holding us back in its current iteration, if we do competitive single target damage, then this talent makes our cleave insane and in order to balance our cleave you have to nerf our single target making it hard to compete in that area of the game.

Summon Doomguard doesn't feel very "Destruction" for a cooldown, it seems like something Demonology would use.

I feel like the level 45 talent tier should be a choice between different forms of crowd control, not survivability or crowd control. In its current iteration, it is essentially a non choice for PvE content, which is exactly why you moved away from the oldschool talent trees. On that note, the level 75 talent tier suffers from the same fate.

Our mastery is not fun to use, I do not like seeing chaos bolts hit for 70k, it overshadows seeing them hit for 130k other times.

I do not like the cast time on Shadowfury, when our fear is interruptible, it doesn't feel good to use another CC that is interruptible. This makes it difficult to peel melee off of us or our healers.

Roaring Blaze, while an interesting talent, feels like a non choice. Not because it is too good, but because the other two aren't good enough. (However in PvP Shadowburn is a non choice because it is required to really get anything done.)

The loss of the fire aura we had with burning embers makes me feel naked when playing the spec, the fact that mages were given an improved form of this visual effect only compounds the animosity I feel. This was something that I felt very strongly aligned with the Destruction Warlock class fantasy. I would like this brought back and updated visually for Legion.

Along the lines of the previous point, the green fire spells have not had a visual update like the spells for other classes, namely fire mage. This seems like an oversight, and something that is easily fixed. It makes me sad to see mages casting with their awesome new spell effects, and yet I sit here with my old animations still.
08/24/2016 03:41 PMPosted by Realdotz
My BIGGEST gripe with destro atm is its mastery... having a CB do 70k one time and then 190k another time UNDER THE SAME BUFFS is not my idea of fun and can be detrimental to my performance in progression.

Yes. The mastery is pretty dumb. Not sure what the RNG is suppose to accomplish.

08/24/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Felrok
The binary system of Soul Shards is a step down from the 1-10 gradient of Burning Embers because of the RNG swings it creates.

Unpopular opinion time.

The way I see it, we shouldn't rely on Immolate for shards. You get 1 shard per Conflagration CD. Conflagration is our primary shard generator. Immolate and Soul Conduit are all random bonuses and you shouldn't rely on them.
08/24/2016 04:42 PMPosted by Catbuyer
Unpopular opinion time.

The way I see it, we shouldn't rely on Immolate for shards. You get 1 shard per Conflagration CD. Conflagration is our primary shard generator. Immolate and Soul Conduit are all random bonuses and you shouldn't rely on them.


If that were to come to pass, we would need either more charges of conflag, or a much shorter recharge rate of conflag. Both of which would be a balancing nightmare with Roaring Blaze and increasing haste levels.

However, a larger reliance on non RNG shard generation would be a welcome addition.
Made RB simple.
Also, PLEASE.

RETURN SHADOWBURN TO EXECUTE AND MAKE IT A SKILL AGAIN!
08/24/2016 05:05 PMPosted by Felrok
08/24/2016 04:42 PMPosted by Catbuyer
Unpopular opinion time.

The way I see it, we shouldn't rely on Immolate for shards. You get 1 shard per Conflagration CD. Conflagration is our primary shard generator. Immolate and Soul Conduit are all random bonuses and you shouldn't rely on them.


If that were to come to pass, we would need either more charges of conflag, or a much shorter recharge rate of conflag. Both of which would be a balancing nightmare with Roaring Blaze and increasing haste levels.

However, a larger reliance on non RNG shard generation would be a welcome addition.

Generally, at the moment I burn Conflagration if I have 2 charges or I know it would recharge before I have to boost Immolate again. Feels alright to me. Just have to be careful with Conflagration usage.
08/24/2016 05:12 PMPosted by Catbuyer
08/24/2016 05:05 PMPosted by Felrok
...

If that were to come to pass, we would need either more charges of conflag, or a much shorter recharge rate of conflag. Both of which would be a balancing nightmare with Roaring Blaze and increasing haste levels.

However, a larger reliance on non RNG shard generation would be a welcome addition.

Generally, at the moment I burn Conflagration if I have 2 charges or I know it would recharge before I have to boost Immolate again. Feels alright to me. Just have to be careful with Conflagration usage.


Yes exactly, but we would need more shard generation from conflagrate to make up for the lack of shard generation from immolate, especially in an aoe situation if your fix were to be in effect.
Agreed with OP post. Couple of other things to mention:

- Demonic Circle needs to be returned to 2-button system.

- Shadowburn needs some kind of animation. You raise your hand and the target takes damage. It has a sound. But it needs some effect to go with it. If the effect color can be affected by greenfire that would be a great bonus too.

And a wishlist item:
May be asking too much here, but allowing Fire and Brimstone to affect Chaos Bolt again would be great. I know Charred Remains was hit and miss for people, but firing out an AoE Chaos Bolt felt really good to me.
You guys know way more than me about warlocks and the game but honestly the most that's going to come out of this "feedback" is the devs just justifying their design choices. Highly doubt they are going to go back on anything. I only say this just so people don't get their hopes up really high, its good to report feedback and how you feel anyway..
I agree with most of what you wrote, but I'll chuck in my 2c as well.

1) Shadowburn needs to be looked at. As a talent it directly competes with Chaos Bolt and if it ever becomes more efficient than Chaos Bolt, it has a hugely detrimental effect on the playstyle by replacing CB with Shadowburn spamming.

Suggestion: Revert to a baseline execute, retune CB and Sburn around that again. Make the Sburn talent increase the execute range and once every 10-20 seconds or so, grant the shard refund (think similar to the Spriest talent), or make it a CD based nuke that gives 2 shards and resets on kill.

2) Shards in general need a rework. (NOT DESTRO SPECIFIC). Demonologies implementation of shards works fine, but Destructions should work similarly to how Embers worked, and Affliction could use a style similar to Elementals resource with UA consuming all of it. Having the same resource with wildly different usages and generation rates between the three specs feels awful.

2a) Or at least remove the shard costs off summoning Doomguard/Service pets. They feel super easy to summon as Demonology with not much trade off, but slightly worse as Destruction and even worse as Affliction.

2b) If you decide to change how shards are generated, please change it to a "guaranteed generation with a chance for extra". The iteration where you can go for a significant length of time without resources because RNG hates you sucks (looking at you WoD Affliction).

3) Rethink how each specs cooldowns work (NOT DESTRO SPECIFIC). The Doomguard cooldown works fantastically, but Dark Soul as a Cooldown felt way more in-tune with Destruction and Afflictions playstyles. Though with the effectiveness of the Infernal as a solo pet (especially for soloing as Affliction), I'd also like a way to keep that, even if it's not for a cooldown.

4) Rework Destructions Mastery entirely. RNG Versatility is an awful idea, even with bad-luck prevention mechanics detailed in the OP, it still leaves Destruction open to it's effectiveness being determined by a slot machine rather than player skill (and nobody wants to be on the receiving end of a Destro lock who hits the metaphorical jackpot in an Arena or BG).
08/24/2016 03:41 PMPosted by Realdotz
My BIGGEST gripe with destro atm is its mastery... having a CB do 70k one time and then 190k another time UNDER THE SAME BUFFS is not my idea of fun and can be detrimental to my performance in progression.


I agree. If they fix this I can probably be happy. There is just way too much rng with the soul shards and mastery and I'm hearing dimensional rift is also very rng.
08/24/2016 05:19 PMPosted by Felrok
Yes exactly, but we would need more shard generation from conflagrate to make up for the lack of shard generation from immolate, especially in an aoe situation if your fix were to be in effect.

Or we could just fix the AoE situation ...

Seriously, RoF is just awkward.
RNG aspect of Destro resource generation needs to be toned down several notches.
1. Partial RNG nature of resource generation, later compounded by RNG of Feretory of Souls legendary and Soul Conduit (if talented), leads to regular feast or famine scenarios which is very frustrating.
Naturally, the famine spectrum feels especially bad when Immolate refuses to proc when you really need the shards. In a Mythic+ multi-mob scenario, a Warlock with poor shard luck can find himself spending at least 3 GCDs at the start of a pull to get 3 shards for a Rain of Fire, only for the tank to move the mobs out of the tiny radius. After which he spams incinerate for minimal damage if no shard procs until the pack dies. Meanwhile, certain other specs I will not name are using their on-demand burst abilities without having to worry about RNG.
Now on the other hand if we try to pool shards for adds/pulls that are predictable, we run into the situation where we can easily overcap on shards. This is very apparent when Feretory of Souls is equipped with Soul Conduit talented as well.

Rain of Fire
The spell does decent (average) damage for what it is intended for (4+ mobs I believe). HOWEVER, the problem lies in how long it takes to generate 3 shards on most pulls, after which it takes another 8 seconds for it to do it's max damage. In addition, you need to pray the tank keeps the mob pack in place inside this 8 seconds.
Now Rain of Fire isn't the only targeted "duration" AoE, there is also Blizzard, Starfall, Death and Decay, Earthquake and some others. The difference here is that, resource wise, Rain of Fire is an EXPENSIVE spell that takes really long to build up to (again, depending on RNG as well). And for it's cost/time compared to other specs' AoE, it certain doesn't do enough damage to justify it's drawbacks.
Please consider the following to alleviate these problems:
a) Implement talent changes to grant on-demand shards (like Flame On, Anticipation, etc) that is not tied to on-kill requirements. Change Mana Tap (*Soul Tap) to grant Soul Shards, or to make the next spell free.
b) Make RoF cost 2 shards, this way 2 Conflags will lead to a RoF or CB and eliminates the need for a RNG proc off immolate. RoF drawbacks more than justifies the 1 shard reduction
c) Shorten the duration to 4 seconds and maintain the same damage.
d) Increase it's damage, and give it a 15-20 sec cooldown.

Rain of Fire (and Chaos Bolt) is iconic of the Destro lock, there is no reason why it should be riddled with so many drawbacks.

Chaos Bolt ST tuning
This one is more straightforward, due to how CB scales with Wreak Havoc and the CB legendary, its single target potential has to be severely pegged back. Like many others before me have stated, it hits like a giant green wet noodle which is laughable considering it is Destro's signature spell.
Please put a damage reduction modifier on Wreak Havoc and up Chaos Bolt's base damage.

Burning Rush is a MUST PICK for dungeons/mythics
With how much BASE mobility most specs have, a Warlock has no choice but to spec into Burning Rush just to keep up with pulls in dungeons. Leaps, Cat form, Divine Steed, 15%+ base movement, Sprint, Blink, Roll, Wolf form etc means most specs are able to get to the next pack before the Warlock. And the worst part is, by the time the Lock gets there, we still need to do our slow ramp up before we can even start to do good damage, at which point mobs are already half dead.
Burning Rush needs to be BASELINE for this very reason (Shadow Priests have the same problem as well if I'm not wrong).

Destro's Mastery serves to compound our current problems
From a raiding standpoint, consistency is of the utmost importance. You want to be able to burst reliably during key moments (like during Heroism), and after the encounter the performance between 2 similar gear/skilled Warlocks should be relatively the same.
Now, you add the RNG resource system, you add RNG legendaries like Feretory of Souls and Magistrike Restraints, and finally a 3rd layer where your spells can do 0-70%+ additional damage.
I have experienced this on beta, one cast of Havoc Chaos Bolt I did 220k x 2 damage, the next cast I cleaved ~380k x 4 due to legendary proc + mastery.
Can you imagine a very likely scenario where 2 Warlocks in a raid experiencing opposite ends of the RNG spectrum during key moments? Bad luck streaks hitting the Destro lock during potion/heroism phases are ESPECIALLY frustrating, while extreme good luck streaks will highly skew their damage.

Please reduce the effectiveness of our Mastery and bake the damage into our baseline.

T19 4pc bonus
"Casting Chaos Bolt reduces the cast time of your next Chaos Bolt by 20% for 2 sec."
Not a problem now, but I already foresee a few problems with this bonus
a) It devalues Eradication talent's 5 second duration (Unless you want to burst CB during Havoc). Either that or you ignore the T19 bonus if you want to maximise Eradication uptime.
b) We need to pool 3-4 shards (+Conflags) to make use of the bonus since it requires spamming of CB (ideally within Havoc window). Refer to my points above about pooling shards leading to overcapping.

Can we simply increase the 2sec buff and make it 10+ secs? Will make the rotation much more natural when certain talents are taken.
ex

08/24/2016 01:42 PMPosted by Vinnygomorra
That looks amazing. :o I wish. I want. I need.
cept soul fire.
I may not agree with several of the items listed by the original post, but new ideals may inspire dev to create something better.

Personnel, shard the time for shard to diminish should be lengthen or while in a dungeon gained resources do not diminish. (if you look to the past warlock collect bags full of shards for raids and they didn't just disappear) How often do we set ourselves up to start a boss fight with 5 shards just to have someone to go AFK or fight explained to them. Dimension Ripper should be up to 8% to 10%, because at 5% it rarely pocs. Additionally, Chaotic Instability should be changed to 5%, 10%, and 15%. (Chaos Bolt hits currently hits very weak) Demon Skin should be a baseline ability, only because they have all ready took one standard ability (portals) and made it a talent, also it really just doesn't fit in the talent tree. It could be replaced with a talent that increases the base dps of summoned demons by 10%. Incinerate needs to have its baseline dps increase by about 10%.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum