Let's Talk: Part 2

Hunter
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First post hit cap, and we are currently sorting out a bug with increasing post cap limits on the forums, so please use this thread going forward.

Thanks! :)
Thank you Ornyx :-). i'm sure you will hear other comments soon !.
BM Feedback:



Rotational- Decision making vs reward.



Yes, I know, BM doesn’t have a lot of damage dealing abilities to work with. Yes, it has some player input downtime, especially in a stomp spec. But after playing arms warrior with talented whirlwind (which essentially turns it into a 2-ability spec with a one-minute third button to press) and having quite a lot of fun, I realized what BM is missing- it doesn’t need more abilities, but rather a better input – to – reward correlation. Right now, the relative paucity of abilities is only counterbalanced intellectually by the need to float focus for kill command, and the occasional decision on whether to use a dire beast proc before or after an upcoming bestial wrath. Neither decision gives a significant reward if made “correctly,” so there’s not much of a positive feedback loop for the player. Two thoughts on how to address this without adding abilities or talents:

-associate a vulnerability effect with dire beast procs- for example, the target of dire beast would take more damage from cobra shot for 5 seconds. This would provide another reward incentive for floating the proper amount of focus, and make players feel better about rotational downtime by counterbalancing it with an unexpected but rewarding spam period. It would also introduce a little decisional complexity by counterbalancing the focus needs of the vulnerability window with the need to KC on cooldown and/or float focus for an upcoming bestial wrath.

-alternately, give KC the chance to proc a free multishot, with increased damage against the primary target. This would add an additional reward for using “downtime” to float enough focus for kill command at minimum interval, while at the same time introducing an additional calculation for focus use- too low, and you’re delaying the potentially rewarding KC; too high, and you risk capping while expending your free MS.

These are exemplars, and I’m sure the design team could come up with something more elegant. The point is that I feel BM suffers from both a lack of rotational complexity AND fairly mundane positive reinforcement for correct execution. Since we’re probably late in the game to be addressing the former, perhaps the latter area offers more fertile ground for improvement.



Visceral- visual and numerical entertainment value.

Another issue BM (and actually all hunter specs) suffers is the lack of a visual entertainment and feedback factor. As an example, when I whirlwind on my warrior, the visual is highly entertaining and makes the ability *feel* powerful (maybe too powerful- I find myself using WW too much in my fury spec just because darnit, it looks like I’m kicking butt.) Furthermore, numbers mean something- the gigantic numbers I get on my combat rogue from a 5-CP Run Through makes the extreme paucity of rotational abilities used to get to that point seem okay. BM has neither visual flare to encourage use of abilities, nor numeric eye candy to reward good play. While numbers are obviously more of a headache to adjust due to balance concerns, adding some visual flare might help. Dramatic (and family individualized) animations for kill command might help reinforce the centrality of KC in the BM rotation. Similarly, dire beast could be enhanced if the beast’s “arrival” on the battlefield was more prominent. (Though perhaps in a translucent sort of way so melee won’t complain.) Simple visual feedback can greatly enhance a player’s perception that they’ve just done something important.



Quality of life-

Can we get the beast cleave debuff to show up on a pet’s mini-frame beneath their master’s main frame? I know you can set up auras through third party add-ons, or use timers, but I’ve wanted this to be part of the base UI for years.

Ditto with the mend pet effect

Pet survivability. Why is a BM’s tenacity pet more fragile than a non demo lock’s infernal? (by quite a lot) and less healable? I was shocked at how much better my low-gear destro lock’s pets could tank compared to my raid-geared hunter’s poor fluffy companions.
Give Hunters 4 specs. Some Hunters still want to play Ranged DPS and still use Traps.

You pretty much denied the entire hunter audience by removing that spec.
Kill Command simply isn't interesting enough to carry BM specialization as the top priority of our rotation. Oh look, I can talent it so that I can add a DoT to it if I throw away Stampede. Oh, I can talent it so that I can press it after Cobra Shot...if I throw away Stampede.

What?

I'm still sitting here with a big ugly dead spot in my rotation and people are pleading for Chimera Shot just to fill the void out of desperation even though it doesn't really fit the spec.

Tell me why my Cheetah cooldown is so long that a Demon Hunter can outpace me in a marathon race across the Barrens by simply spamming their spacebar.
SPACEBAR ISN'T EVEN A COOLDOWN.
General classc concerns-

Mobility and survivability. My lock has shields from damage and life drain. My mage has ice barrier, ice block, and blink/recall. My rogue has a 30 sec CD heal, evasion, feint, AND can shadowstep or sprint out of danger. My paladin has HoP, DS, and an absorb shield, and two self heals, in addition to multiple charges of divine steed. My warrior has second wind (which is technically an out of combat ability, but is AMAZING if you can avoid being hit for 6 seconds) and die by the sword, as well as heroic leap. All of these make these toons feel more durable and more mobile than my hunter (caveat: my ‘lock does not feel more mobile than my hunter, but he can take a bath in ground effects, so why would he have to move?). I realize that “because another class can do it” is not a valid reason for a design decision, but the general feeling of fragility and the need to find a place to hide and recuperate so often isn't a lot of fun. I’d take a shorter duration AotCheetah and a lower percentage on Exhil if I could do both of them a lot more often. A second charge on AotTurtle or disengage would work too. SV seems to have the most dire need- as a melee spec, it feels oddly punishing if you take damage.

I could go on. I very much miss a lot of things that were pruned from hunters (distracting shot, tranq shot, trap launcher, and glyphed mend pet chief amongst them) but I recognize that ship has sailed. That aside, I believe there are tweaks that could be made to the current hunter core mechanics to address the “fun” and “quality of experience” factors without major overhauls. Hopefully this discussion has been at least minimally useful.
This is a comment I initially posted on http://www.huntsmanslodge.com/40289/thoughts-7-0-3/ after I lost access to the wow forums. I feel it describes why many hunters feel the rotations are clunky or boring.

Thank you for posting this. It describes almost exactly how I felt when I logged into my hunter. I actually cried when I saw the changes.

Like you, I never liked MM and I would only rarely play BM. SV was always my go-to spec. And, well, that’s gone.

I almost switched (and may still switch) to an Assasantion/Sub rogue, but my guild needed a hunter so I’m trying to stick it out. Here is what I’ve found after pretty extensive play time:

Marksmanship
The MM rotation is really rough (and will probably continue to be so after Winburst). The problems:
– The lowest cost shot that doesn’t follow a focus regen shot is 50 focus so you essentially have 50-150 focus since you can’t do anything at 40 focus except hit SW if it’s up. Windburst brings this down to 30 so it could help with this a bit, but I think the insta-cast focus regen is going to make this to be an ongoing problem throughout the xpansion.
– That said, focus management is pretty messed up right now. I find myself capping focus with nothing off CD except a 2 second, non buffed aimed shot that’s not really worth 50 focus without Vulnerability. Worse than that, I find myself running out of focus – a lot – during my standard rotation. During a long fight, I wind up standing there casting Autoshot for long periods of time while I wait for my focus to regen or a Sidewinder to come of CD.
– AOE on everything. Hunters already had a bad rap for pulling everything. Now, even those who pride themselves as not being one of “those hunters”, have the ability to pull the entire dungeon (and get a few birds at the same time). We really should be able to choose AOE not have it baseline.
– Having a pet needs to be an option. I spent weeks (months?) of game time just farming pets (not just for BM either).
– Instant cast focus regen shots are a huge part of the rotational problems and lead to most of these focus issues. Who thought instant-cast focus gen shots on a CD would make sense? Seriously, who thought this would be a gameplay improvement.
– Blizzard did do a decent job making sure skill would improve DPS in this spec though. The actual rotation, if done properly, is extremely complex given four buttons. It is so complex, in fact, I can’t imagine they did it intentionally. I’m competitive so skill matters to me and it shouldn’t be removed from the game.

BM:
BM was my second choice spec and I found it fun pre-patch. I prefered doing the damage to the target myself though so it wasn’t my first choice. Even though my pet did much of the damage, it still felt like I was doing something. Now:
– We don’t even pretend to do damage. It feels like I’m playing tonka remote control with my cat.
– We have ONE shot (and either a 60 second crows or 20 second and Barrage). Since I choose this spec when I don’t want to die during an open world PVP situation, I am forced to choose the 60 second Crows. If I choose MM or Barrage I end up fighting the other player and every NPC I pull with my AE.
– WTF is with Stampede? It’s virtually useless in a PVP scenario because the player can just step to the side and avoid it. The plus side is that it does seem to provide some skill requirements in the arena but you will never see more than a stun duration of damage to your target.
– The concept “rotation” or “shot priority” are gone. We hit whatever ability is off CD and try no to cap by spending Cobra shot. I haven’t actually looked the writeups about this, but I can’t imagine any kind of priority works when you only have one pressable button at a time (or Cobra shot).

SV:
This was my spec pre-patch because I didn’t have to stop for a 2 seconds cast and I wanted to do my own damage. Now, it’s gone and I don’t know why:
– I can’t see any benefit SV has over other Melee classes.
– When was the last time you’ve heard from a Raid Leader, “We need more melee, we have too much ranged.”

Overall:
– I haven’t done much arena yet, but it isn’t looking good for the expansion. Master’s call is gone, we have one slow, and a three minute speed boost. We are going to spend our days chasing healers around columns and never catching them. If it wasn’t for the server reset, I’m pretty sure I would still be chasing that last healer.
– Traps – These were really useful when trying to keep range on NPC’s and Players. I would love to use them after accidently strafing into a mob while soloing. They were used to keep things at range until you could escape or keep some 1-shot mob from eating your raid. It makes no sense to give them to Melee only.
– Explosive trap – Yeah. It’s a trap. But holy cow it was fun blowing people off of lumbermill.
– Camo is gone – This was a really useful quality of life thing for hunters, and especially usefull in RBG’s.
– Where is my Pet?!!?!?!?! That should be a real choice for any hunter class. Giving players the option, but making the pet-version so nerfed nobody will choose it is ridiculous. It feels like some dev said, “They’re crying that their pet is gone, so give it to them but make it useless so we can show our boss the stats proving hunters don’t really want pets.”
– Utility – There were a lot of Raid mechanics that made hunters very useful. Is Blizzard planning on making Raids into “Cleave Everything Down” like they’ve done with Dungeons? Things like traps and MC were really useful in solo play.

Summary
I don’t really know how to summarize this aside from saying that I am disappointed in the hunter changes. With so many improvement in the game, I don’t understand why Hunters seemed to be gutted without rhyme or reason. I don’t think they spent much time thinking the changes through. Just the fact that the left a whistle on a 15 second (or sooner) CD seems to indicate that they never bothered to play the class. I can’t imagine anybody who played hunter would have done this to their class.

Also Blizzard, if you’re reading this … If I wanted a 4 button rotation, I would play a different game. Some people say it’s hard to learn WOW, but more people would tell you that you’ve taken the pruning way too far. Maybe if people didn’t start out at level 100 (because you sell level 100 toons), you wouldn’t hear the barrier to entry complaint as much.
Oh, now that we have a new thread, this post I made elsewhere belongs here. It's another TLDR, sorry :P

08/25/2016 02:22 PMPosted by Keyimin
Well, I was typing a post when the other thread reached cap. I realized that after my mind dump on the problems with BM, I didn't offer any thoughts about solutions. Many have been offered over the course of alpha/beta, as well as in that thread, but here's my additional 2 cents:

Wild Call: Personally, I think this passive is at the root of all BM's problems right now, as I explained in the other thread. I'd like to see it either 1) completely redesigned or 2) reduced to something akin to a feel-good bonus proc and not something that's tied to our core mechanics. One thing I didn't mention in the other thread is that its low and painful proc mechanic is also what makes Dire Frenzy so painfully unviable as a talent.

The problem, of course, is that any meaningful change here requires changes across the board, precisely because it's tied to everything. And this is why, IMO, it's really bad design. For now, we should be able to bank a charge of DB so 1) we don't lose procs that are desperately needed, and 2) we have at least one small decision to make about how and when we build/spend our focus.

Chim Shot: While I agree that taking this talent makes the "rotation" feel a bit more complete and wrests back a small bit of control over our focus regen, I now see it only as a band-aid for the larger problems I described in the other thread. We really, REALLY don't need another instant-cast ability on a CD. It just adds one more mole to the game of whack-a-mole. That said, in the absence of a redesign, making Chim baseline is better than not.

The whole talent row really needs help right now. Stomp is far and away the best talent on any number of targets. Dire Frenzy, as mentioned above, is not even remotely viable. And Chim Shot, which has been nerfed significantly over time, is also garbo but for the fact that it makes things feel better. (And please, for the love of all that is good and decent, don't take this to mean you should just nerf Stomp to be as crappy as the others.)

The whole point of Dire Frenzy, one of the few iterations we saw over the entire course of the alpha/beta, was to return the option of a hunter + one pet style of gameplay. As such, it shouldn't be a choice between ST or AoE; it should be a choice that is comparable to the other two in all cases. So you'd have DF if you want that class fantasy, or Stomp if you use DB (for AoE), and a third talent that should be comparable for ST with DB.

Change Dire Frenzy so it isn't so dependent on Wild Call unless and until you can redesign it. You will never see 3 stacks absent the stars aligning and being blessed by the titans themselves. And Dire Frenzy's damage needs to be tuned to account for the loss of DB + Stomp damage, which it isn't. It should offer a straight damage buff to our pets, IMO, that equals DB + Stomp ST damage, with a chance to increase it by an equivalent percentage to multiple Stomping DBs if we get Wild Call procs.

Then give us a harder-hitting, castable-on-the-move, ST shot as our third option, with no CD but a focus cost that basically requires use to use Chim to have the focus to use it. Or something along those lines; I haven't mathed any of this out but have no doubt in your ability to make the tuning work.

We have several other talent rows that could use some work, but I've already puked up enough on the two threads I think :P


For ease of reference, the prior post I repeatedly refer to is here: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748844917?page=23#post-450
08/25/2016 02:50 PMPosted by Ornyx
First post hit cap, and we are currently sorting out a bug with increasing post cap limits on the forums, so please use this thread going forward.

Thanks! :)


I'll say it again you're a very brave soul, or you drew the short straw. Either way thank you, and good luck.
Ill make my feed back short and sweet.

RNG is fun when it adds to or changes your rotation. When you have RNG proc, you should say "Sweet her comes something awesome"

RNG should never be a core mechanic for your class to even function properly. When you get a proc in this situation your thinking " Oh thank god finally, i can function" and it feels horrible.

Pets need something similar to their old skills back, That is based The family and on what spec they are in for flavor

Say a cat family.

In Ferocity They get "Rake" Which causes a Bleed.
In Tenacity they get "Lick your wounds" Decent self heal based on the damage they took.
Cunning They would Get "Pounce" a knock down with mini stun + physical damage.

Take the Snake family
Ferocity "poison fang" Nature damage dot
Tenacity "Cobra Reflexes" increased dodge, or fully dodges an ability.
Cunning " Constrict" Minor dot physical and root.

Nothing wrong with Overlap.

The DPS bumps would be different ways of doing the same amount of damage, and mostly there for flavoring.

The tanking abilities would be different ways of mitigating damage.

and Cunning could be anything that gives a bump in pvp. You will have to take the pet with the perk you like, but in pvp do you care?

BM could then have access to stronger version, or the ability to "train" their pet to do other pet family skills.

Most people have talked about BM and its issues already.
So I want to point out that BM is totally lacking any visual flair. First off i think dire stables should be the standard way the skill works. With a Glyph that changes it to random animals if people so choose.

also i would like to suggest as a change and to add some very interesting Visual design, you have the hunter always running around 4 pets. His main pet, Hati, and the top 2 from his call list. The other 2 pets function as your first cast of Dire beasts. The rest are randomly pulled from your stables. I think it would just be an awesome visual and look very Master of beasts to run around as a pack.

Also I know Hati has a lot of issues. Might i suggest.
instead of Hati surviving to fuse with the artifact. Hati Dies and his spirit is bound to the weapon and Hati then posses your current pet and making them more powerful. Its what Bm has always been about, and it it keeps the quest pretty much intact, Hatis body is gone, but hes still their helping.
It could also make BM very visually pleasing, with spells and attacks having Hati Ghost appear.

Instead of the Titan discharge, that looks like your shocking your pet, we could have Titan assistance where Hati could run out from the artifact into all active "pets" and causing them all to have his lightening aura.

During bestial wraith Hatis Ghost could appear large, and growling over the pet and the hunter and then Shrink as the hunter and pet grow and turn red. (hes feeding them his rage. so to speak)

During the increased beast cleaves, Hati could dart out from your main pet, and hit all targets. or be seen as an after image striking after your pet does.

The huge explosion skill the gun has that was just a ball of lighting could be hati running out and calling lighting down on himself, all Shazam like. could even make the name of the skill a pop-cultural reference

You could then have a Glyph or a Talent that split hati from the main pet either visually or physically. So he could be there for looks, or actually there doing damage, but would share a portion of your pets stats.
If it was done Physically You could have the pets taunting off each other a as to make them appear to be working as a team, and then both attacking for kill command.

I feel this would give BM some massive visual flair, help clean up the damage spread, and bring us back to hunter and big powerful pet. It would also make it look less like we are shocking our pets and more like we are actually empowering them.

I also allows us to go into the next xpac with out worry about losing the second ""pet"" (i use the term loosely) .

The rough idea on how we would use hati as spirit.


Ok not as short as i though.
Thank you- I posted something much longer yesterday, but I have something a little more nebulous to bring up:

Something I feel like hunters have been lacking is the capacity for team play in PvE. I don't feel like I interact with my raid members very much outside of encounter mechanics, and certainly not in any way that sets me apart as a hunter versus some other class- I can't use a reactive raid cooldown of any kind, provide any of the fun single-target buffs that are new in Legion, or offer any unique group utility.

I loved the brief life of Aspect of the Fox, because I was able to use it dynamically in many situations, in order to respond to moments of danger in encounters, and it made me think about the needs of my fellow raiders- my team. I had a reason to pay attention to things other than fight mechanics and my DPS rotation. I had a reason to think about where my teammates were, how encounter mechanics would affect them, and how I could help them.

That really, truly added an element of team play that has been diminishing for hunters.

We used to be able to interact uniquely with our team through the way we handled certain mechanics- kiting, trapping, pet offtanking. The Moroes encounter comes to mind, as a timely example. The fights that require that sort of strategy have fallen away in recent years, and I've been feeling far less like I, as a hunter, bring a uniquely hunter-y way to contribute to my team.

This was made briefly better with Fox, but I understand its removal- I just feel like there has to be a better answer than simply removing raid utility from the class.

I bring this up now, because it's gotten worse, not better, with Legion- now, our ability to clutch pet offtank, Distracting Shot, trap, and kite has also been removed. I can't event offensively Dispel anymore.
08/25/2016 02:57 PMPosted by Enliaz
Give Hunters 4 specs. Some Hunters still want to play Ranged DPS and still use Traps.


I wouldn't be against the idea of a 4th spec, so melee and ppl who preferred range can have the best of both worlds.

Especially when range SV was pure magical mobile dps.
Patient Sniper & Sidewinders combo feels like the only viable option, you can get 80% uptime in a 150% debuff with this combo.In patient sniper tier the other options are inexistente, explosive shot needs to explode on the first mob hit.
Only doing MM since that's the spec I'm going with and really like. BM is too boring to me.

MM

First - BM isn't the only spec that's lacking another baseline ability. I personally feel that Piercing Shot should be baseline for MM as a sniper would hit big as an opener and that ability would be a perfect opener, even with the 30sec CD. With that ability baseline you could then use the open talent slot for something a bit better to compete with Sidewinders/Patient Sniper.

Second - I know the spec is built around a casting aimed shot so a lot of the current downtime is because of the instant from the 4pc from HFC. I'm perfectly fine with that but we need aimed shot to be castable on the move. With windburst from the artifact we have 2 abilities (out of 4 non-proc ones) that are sit and cast, which is not what hunters have ever been about. We've always been mobile dps. Perhaps to compensate for moving AiS you could add a cast time to Piercing Shot (again, it being baseline) and make it require you to sit still. Thus our main focus dump (AiS) can be cast when the "oh crap I have to move" moments happen in group content.

So to sum up:

1. Make Piercing Shot baseline with a cast time
2. Make AiS castable on the move but keep the cast time as is

Those two would be definite improvements.

Now for QoL improvements:

1. Give us back Distracting Shot and Tranquilizing Shot. There was no reason to remove those from MM. They offer great utility. (still not sure how they got axed while we kept Eagle Eye)
2. Give us another reliable CC that isn't a talent. Make it a trap if you have to but something.

Thanks for looking at the feedback.
Survival needs something to make them worth bringing. I love the spec because it is fun and I almost always have a button to press(unlike MM or BM) but I feel that survival just won't be competitive enough. Survival has garbage mobility and garbage AOE. I notice we get a legendary that spreads lacerate to other targets with carve...I think that should be baseline or replace that silly gold trait that gives us a chance on auto attack to get 2 extra auto attacks with one that spreads lacerate to all targets you hit with carve. Or up to 5 targets. Whatever.
08/25/2016 03:05 PMPosted by Daetur

I bring this up now, because it's gotten worse, not better, with Legion- now, our ability to clutch pet offtank, Distracting Shot, trap, and kite has also been removed. I can't event offensively Dispel anymore.


Wow, you're right. I'm not even sure why I would hit my push-to-talk key at this point. I don't have a cooldown to call out. I can't say I'm trapping square. I can't say I'm dispelling. I can't say I'll Distract a mob and run it through my snare.

I can call my battle rezz if we're desperate enough to need it?

Speaking of which; why on earth do I need to take my pet off the boss and run them all the way over to the idiot who died? Why can I not simply obey the same functionality that every other battle rezzer enjoys? Just let me cast it on my line of sight. Pet movement and line of sight has never been good enough to bind a brezz effect to it. And now it's even worse in Legion.
Here's a consolidation of the posts I made about Survival in the previous thread.

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748844917?page=7#post-131 (This is my post with positive feedback - what you did right.)

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748844917?page=8#post-153 (This is where the spec needs improvement.)

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748844917?page=11#post-202 (This is a post about the talent tree, and what needs to be looked at in it.)

http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20748844917?page=11#post-213 (This is the post about SV flavor and thematics.)

Again, thank you very much. It means a lot that you're trying to reach out to us.
I went on my BM hunter for the first time since the changes just a few days ago. My entire bar was gone and I thought... Okay, some changes have been made, let me look what I have to work with. I could not believe how absolutely gutted this spec has become. I tried to play it but I got so incredibly frustrated with how boring and mind numbing this spec has become I turned it off and have not touched it since.

Basically the to the point problem with this spec is that it's boring. It is almost as if you guys are trying to turn hunter into the go to spec for people that have never touched a video game in their lives or are missing one of their arms.
Hunter was already a good spec for beginners but give us a little credit.

BM hunter was my first toon and my first raiding toon. It saddens me to see it in this sad, pathetic state. I do hope you guys go back and fix what has been done. As it stands now I see absolutely no reason to play a BM hunter. Unfortunately I do not have much to say about their utility or the other specs because I couldn't stand playing it long enough to test any of that out.
Here's my 2 copper, for what it's worth:

I decided to level my Horde Hunter alt when the invasions happened. Dusted him off ( he had just started level 10) and got him to 100 using Heirlooms and Invasions, fairly quickly and effortlessly.

IF I'd never ever looked at a Hunter talent tree from Vanilla to Cata, never experienced the "simpler" talent trees of MoP and WoD, never experienced the class having 6 glyph slots to use (3 to alter/enhance our abilities and 3 to add cosmetic/flavor differences to our toon) then I could possibly play a hunter going into Legion; simply because I wouldn't know how the class was BEFORE the pre-patch.. But, sadly, I can't do that. My first hunter, (this toon) I started in BC (and mained through 3 guilds, 2 server changes and a faction change; all for the sake of playing with friends/ people who were willing to put up with me ;p) feels empty now. Not different. Not missing some style or flavor. No, he feels empty. Empty because as BM or SV his pet dies over and over and over again. Empty because his mobility is sorely lacking in every spec. Empty because the skill of kiting (as range), the skill I worked long and hard to master, is nearly impossible to do correctly now. Empty because I can't peel mobs off my healers when needed. Empty because as BM and MM, I can't CC melee to get some distance.... because those specs have ZERO CC. Empty because the hours and days I took to tame certain pets to provide a needed raid buff no longer provide anything other than dps (and not even that since 3 hits seems to be the max the poor creatures can stand). Empty because the confidence I once had of soloing boss level mobs (raid and world), knowing that i could keep my pet up by spamming Mend Pet, is gone.

I have played this class for 9 years now. I have always leveled my hunter first each new expansion, no matter my role in my guilds raiding progression (if they raided at all ;p). My hunter was the toon that I saw the new content of the past 4 expansions first. My hunter was always my main, no matter whatever other class I played for guild runs (PVE and PVP), because a hunter was the class I rolled when I first started playing this game. Every other class I play (other than Mage) feels to me like they're lighter; like the "fat was trimmed", like the rotation was tightened and needs a few less buttons to manage, yet is still challenging and fun. My hunter, both of them, feel like someone wanted to do the same thing, "trim the fat" and make the rotation tighter but keep the class fun and challenging, but did so in a completely pitch black room using a chainsaw rather than a laser scalpel. And now can't, or won't, admit what a hack job they've done to the class that I love to play above all others.

Change can be good, change can be uplifting...... But change simply for the sake of change (which, to me, seems to be what happened with the “changes” to this class) benefits no one. For myself, the class that was once comfortable and familiar is, sadly, no longer the case.

PS: I have heard, as all of us who have played this class for any length of time have, the cry for a “melee” hunter. And yes, in Vanilla and BC ( and sort of in Cata), Survival had talents in its tree to enhance our melee abilities; yet, it also improved our traps and our range abilities, because.... (wait for it) SV was still a RANGED spec. Until now.
IF I want to play a melee spec, I'd play a Death Knight, a Druid, A Paladin, a Rogue, a Shaman or a Warrior; because each of these are either a melee class entirely or have at least 1 melee spec. I would not demand a melee change to a class which every specialization has been ranged from the dawn of WoW. And I would not look at fellow hunters, who loved playing SV before, as ranged, and tell them that there are still 2 ranged specs for the class.... you just have to pick one. Of all of us who play/love this class, IMHO, Survival hunters got screwed over the worst going into Legion: Because, they either have to play as melee if they want to stay SV or they have to switch to BM or MM just to stay ranged.
I thought I posted this in the first one but I was unable to find my post so posting here.

I'm not sure what the inhouse goal for beast master fantasy is but from a player of the class in the state it is it does not feel like I interact with my pet much in combat nor to I really summon/call on more beasts to aid me during the fight.

A lot of pets have lost buffs/abilities with pruning and I understand that however now it just feels like each pet is just a graphic for a poorly simple DoT. Aside from Kill Command we have no on use interaction with our pet. If I remember correctly back at the release of Mists we had via talents the ability to have an on use Blink Strike or Lynx Rush, and we all had the old Stampede.

These on use abilities to control our pet more gave more feeling of fighting with our pet. Also the old Stampede felt great, the ability to control which pets you could call on to aid you, your pets in the stable to assist you. Now it just seems like a very basic ability with a very "eh" graphic that happens to involve beasts.
The unholy Death Knight I feel has a very nice pet management at the moment and feels more involved with their pets, especially with their talent Sludge Belcher, it gives their pet a lot more flavor.

Lastly, currently BM is struggling to aid others in a party, only bringing damage and possibly battle rez. With the removal of traps, an offensive dispel, party buffs via pets, it feels very very limited. We have counter shot which is nice to still have but has a very long CD by comparison. The only CC we can talent for is Wyern sting which by comparison to other CCs is horrid for group play. I would love to see the CD removed from it so it can act more like polymorph or adding tranq-shot back to the hunter's kit would really help put us in a good position to aid our parties/raids.

Also Eyes of the Beast is still missing :(
I'm saying/repeating this for solidarity sake. Say your peace and move on. Do not argue with other people about their feedback. Do not copy-paste your old feedback onto the new thread. Only added feedback. Old thread isn't going anywhere because Blue said there isn't going to be one huge thread due to a bug.

-Hunters need an execute mechanic. If Murder of Crows is intended to be it, then make it baseline, so its cooldown is as long as its duration (improved with haste), only usable at 20% or below, and resets cooldown if target dies during duration.

-Current Murder of Crow talent duration and cooldown needs reduced by haste.

-If Murder of Crows is not intended to be an execute mechanic, make it so pet Basic Attack gains either damage or critical strike chance based on target's missing health.

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