Let's Talk: Part 2

Hunter
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I said everything that needed to happen right here in this video, every ability, talent, rotation, spec & even honor talents fully detailed:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bt9jp1OcAI

Also, look at the changes I posted here regarding all three specializations and both the regular talent trees and the honor talents as well. Authored by Zera:
http://wod-talent-grid-maker.appspot.com/talentgridmaker?theAction=query


Yes, this truly needs to be looked at. Amazing and effective changes that brings balance. Lets make hunter great again :D
I would like to start off by saying that the majority of what I am writing here is just a reiteration of what I have said on the hunter feedback threads in the Beta forums. I have extensively played the hunter class on beta as both MM and BM. Due to a phasing bug on my first character (which was MM) I was unable to pick up my BM artifact so I made a completely separate character to test the other spec. Both characters ended up in the high i740's before I was done. I would like to consider my experience in gearing those characters for raid content as quite extensive. I will break everything down into a few sections for each spec as well as general remarks.

General Remarks
- I don't like melee. Although I have tried out Survival on my 2nd hunter for some initial impressions I did not enjoy it at all and thus my feedback regarding that spec will be limited. I would, however, like to say I believe that the current incarnation of Survival was a missed opportunity to do something very interesting with a tanking spec. I think a Survival Hunter tank with a damage splitting and taunt swapping component between player and pet would have been unique among tanks in any game. This would have been far more interesting and unique than Demon Hunter tanking is. Perhaps something for another expansion.
- The leveling process went fairly smooth. If you made the mistake of not speccing you pet as a tank you were in for a rough time on any elite mob. This is intended and a welcome change compared to just using a DPS pet for everything like you did in warlords and prior to that.
- The level 45 talent tier is terrible. Either make posthaste baseline and start from scratch on the tier or replace Farstrider and Dash completely. This would be a nice opportunity to introduce perhaps a trap or two. I believe nerfing or removing posthaste would be a mistake. The community as a whole likes the jump, spin, disengage, sprint thing.

Marks
- In my opinion, there is an over interaction between auto shot, hunters mark, marked shot, and then Aimed Shot. Having something on a timer have a chance to proc something on an ability, which allows you to use another ability, which in turn makes yet another ability worthwhile to cast is too convoluted.
- No reasonable talent diversity. Your only real option is PS/SW. This is mostly due to my first point. Choosing sidewinders takes a lot of the RNG out of what I described above. The player KNOWS that there will be at least 6s of vulnerable on the target. In addition, usually, you will have a marked shot ready to go as well to extend the vulnerable window. Furthermore, this reliable and constant rotation works perfectly with Patient Sniper so nobody is choosing anything else. The only way that the community considers this spec playable is because of the PS/SW combo. In my opinion, for this reason alone I would consider the MM rework a failure.
- I would like to see some dry streak prevention on the Hunters Mark proc. With more frequency and less RNG on Marked Shot, I think that would at least make MM fun to play if you don't choose PS/SW. From a balance perspective fine tuning the dry streak prevention could be done to tune non-PS/SW playstyle because at this point marked shot is almost always available anyways if you have chosen SW as a talent.
- lvl 15 talents: Although thematically it would be nice to see Lone Wolf baseline, I think things are fine as they are.
- lvl 30 talents: I believe Black Arrow needs a bit of a nerf. Currently, the ability of MM to solo is better than that of BM (expanded on below). Being able to have your regular pet heal up with Mend Pet while the Dark Minion is tanking is far too powerful. Perhaps give the Dark Minion a set amount of health so elite mobs will kill it before the duration expires. Lock and Load is available too seldomly in my opinion. I would like to see an increase in proc chance with an appropriate reduction in damage for balancing.
- lvl 60 talents: Explosive Shot feels underwhelming and clunky. If it was at least targetable some people might choose it. Sentinel does what it is supposed to do. The real issue is Patient Sniper. I have already gone into this ability above. No use doing it again.
- lvl 90 talents: AMoC and Volley are underwhelming compared to Barrage. Currently, you will take Barrage in all situations just based on damage alone. Factor in that this can be cast on the move and this becomes a must for a spec lacking mobility. Single target, AMoC should beat barrage with ease. Volley.... I'm not a fan at all. With Barrage and AMoC we have both AOE and ST covered if balanced properly. Honestly, Trick Shot would fit in this talent tier in place of Volley.
- lvl 100 talents: Once again, the issue is with SW making the spec playable. I won't go into it again. I do like PS as an ability. As I stated previously, I think that TS would fit better in place of Volley. As for something to replace where TS would have been... I'm not sure. With the current class design, I can't see picking anything besides SW.
- The mobility of MM is terrible. You have completely removed something which people enjoyed most about the hunter class and removed it from this spec entirely. With the current 4Pc bonus giving instant Aimed Shots Marksman feels good (of course only when PS/SW are chosen). Once we no longer have that bonus you feel like you are missing something. I think making Windburst castable while moving should be the first change made. In addition, aimed shot should be castable in some form while moving. I am not against some penalty though. I think a valid compromise would be to have a movement speed reduction during the Aimed Shot cast. I believe a 20%-40% movement speed penalty during the cast time would be reasonable and restore something that the current Marksmanship hunter is lacking in 'Huntery' feeling.

BM
- This is fairly boring. There is little to no interaction between abilities which is in stark contrast to the over interaction between abilities like we have for Marksman.
- BM should be a better solo spec than MM is and is not currently. Even while choosing the Aspect of the Beast talent and having 100% uptime on mend pet I found it more difficult to solo difficult mobs than as MM. I am not talking about absurd pulls but just 1-2 hard hitting mobs.
- BM's self-healing is extremely low. with the CD reduction on exhilaration for MM, you are in a much better position to keep yourself alive through both solo world as well as group and raid content.
- I would like to see spirit bond come back perhaps as a baseline ability and upgraded through choosing Aspect of the Beast as a talent. This should solve the two previous issues I spoke of: low self-healing and having a squishy pet.
- Although BM offers competitive DPS with a full artifact tree, MM easily outperforms it during the level 20-26 artifact weapon time. Some balancing needs to be done in this area. Although MM will lose some overall damage due to movement BM is still unable to catch up. Some balancing certainly needs to be done here.
- Overall I like the talent diversity in the tree. Although some talents need to be balanced a little more you still have viable options in most tiers.
- Pet pathing and AI unless micromanaged is still terrible at times. I understand this is not something easy to fix. This is just an FYI really. In fact on the 2nd to last boss in NL your pet is completely useless most of the time. I have submitted bug reports about this already.

These are the primary comments and criticisms I have about the Hunter class currently. I don't believe I have been unreasonable with any of my suggestions or requests. I am not looking to make anything overpowered, just fix some of what I consider to be sub-par or completely broken design.
One thing I forgot to mention is how completely messed up it is for a ranged spec to not actually have ranged abilities. BM has always been a weird ranged-melee hybrid, but now it's possible to spec so that Cobra Shot is the only ranged ability you have. So we now have a ranged class (hunter) that only has one spec that's actually ranged. That's another reason Chimaera needs to be baseline. I mean, Outlaw rogues have more baseline ranged abilities than the supposedly ranged BM hunters!

I have come to hate the "class fantasy" buzzphrase used for Legion, because you didn't go for class fantasy at all. Class fantasy would have shared traits between all three specs. You went for spec fantasy instead and it left classes feeling fractured and unrelated, as if there are 36 classes instead of 12 with 2-4 specs each.
So, let me start this off with this post will be only about BM as it is currently in the prepatch. I don't play the other specs because I haven't liked them ever, simple as that. BM player since day 1, So strap in!

There are a few things I like about new BM hunters, but there is a lot of room for improvement, both mechanics and lore/fantasy wise. Lets start with some pros of the current situation of the spec:

Pros.
Dire Beast is our focus generator - Since it was introduced in MoP, Dire beast has, for the most part, been a stable of BM play and has brought with it a neat fantasy aspect of bonding with beasts.
Cobra Shot replaced Arcane Shot - Arcane shot never really made sense in the BM rotation: we don't really do spell stuff, sans nature damage from beasts. So, moving Cobra shot to that roataion just feels good.
Chimeara Shot and Stampede are BM only now - I always thought Chimeara Shot was a weird ability for MM hunters to have, only BM can tame chimeara's, so why wouldn't it be our ability? Kind of the same with Stampede, though Surv makes sense for it as well. And now we can get these abilities via talents!
Kill Command and Beastial Wrath play/CD times - Increaseing the cooldowns on KC and BW put our burst in it's place, which is a good thing. It was starting to get a little out of hand. Having Dire Beast reduce BWs cooldown is a cool mechanic as well. Makes it a very useful and fun ability, giving you something to work towards in your spec.

Those are the pros that I think are a good thing going for BM hunters. This, however, rolls into the cons, starting with:

-Chimeara Shot and Stampede are talents that are manditory for good BM play - This isn't a good thing, far and wide. None of the other talents come close to these tow in their repective trees. Chimeara shot is a huge boost to our focus regen, is good damage, and sits well in our rotation. Stampede, on the other hand, I wish I could spec out of. It used to be an AWESOME ability, and it felt good to summon your 5 chosen pets on a target and say "GET 'EM!" Now? Now you just kind of say, "hey, come and run at this guy for me..." and a bunch of random animals do just that. It's good damage, but it's not a fun ability anymore and betrays the fantasy of BM hunters and our bond with our pets. These two abilities, plus reverting stampede back to what it once was, being added into our ability pool instead of via talents, I feel would bring back the fun of BM, as well as it's fantasy.
-Focus regen feels really weird - We basically have a focus generating ability on top of a ton of regen. I feel more like a ranged rogue than a hunter, only I don't have any of those sweet combo points to lay waste into an enemy with an awesome finisher. I have a subpar Kill Command, and a subpar focus dump that is only good via a mandatory talent. Once again, not good.
-Beastial Wrath doesn't reduce focus cost anymore - While the insrease in CD times was a good thing for BW, getting rid of the focus reduction was a tad too far. A burst spec had its burst nerfed hard, making it not very bursty.

That's what I've got on my favorite spec, Pros and cons and things I feel should be changed to make BM great again. I know it was lengthy, but I thank you for reading, and for asking us for our feedback.
I've found that I don't enjoy MM as much as BM, because I am frequently just waiting for something to do. I have taken "recommended" builds for both specs, and I found with MM I don't have any way to generate focus, and also have a lot fewer abilities;

With my BM talents, and calculating for max-level Artifact, at 110 I will have 3 "CD's" (abilities with more than 1 minute CD) and 6 "Active" rotational abilities. This includes two ways to generate focus; Chimaera Shot and Dire Beast.

With my MM talents, and calculating for max-level Artifact, at 110 I will have 1 "CD" (Trueshot) and 4 "Active" rotational abilities, with no ability to generate focus.

I feel like the key difference that makes me feel like BM is a more active spec isn't just down to the number of active abilities and CD's (though I do find that disparity interesting) but it's because having an ability to generate focus, with more short-term CD's, gives me something to do all the time. It also means that sometimes I have to choose between two or more possible actions, which is interesting; the choices made in those split-seconds is, in my experience, what makes the difference between an average player and a good player. MM doesn't seem to have those moments; you wait for focus, then you wait for the proc, then you press the button, then you wait again. MM comes out feeling tedious.

Having choices during a fight, and never having to just sit around waiting for my resource, is what I have always found fun about Hunters and why I currently want to play BM as my primary spec.
Can you implement a Pet talent/ability tree (like the old days) so we can choose what pet we want, without being disadvantaged for its special ability. That way I can choose a cool looking cat, but still have a mortal strike effect.

Also why do we still have Eagle Eye? I haven't used that since level 15 questing near Darnassus.
08/25/2016 06:10 PMPosted by Arcturuz

Also why do we still have Eagle Eye? I haven't used that since level 15 questing near Darnassus.


While I understand some people like to use it in pvp in Arathi particularly, it is ironic that of all the abilities to escape the purge, it was this. I haven't even had it on my bars since vanilla.
One of the primary issues I see being mentioned is the current state of Beast Mastery revolving around "only three buttons" when following guides from sites like Icy-Veins, so know that I've noted that in my feedback already.

I am interested to hear why less buttons impacts your engagement and enjoyment of the class overall, and what you see as the problem with any of those skills.

*Excuse any ignorance I may have with the Hunter class here.


OK, I'll bite. This is an old character. I came back specifically to play it during Legion, but can hardly stand to even look at it now. Back when I played it often I had a keypad full of 24 keybinds and even a few pet bar commands on my gaming mouse. I know 30 some odd hotkeys isn't a style for everybody, but neither is having a mere 10 (at most) to mess with. Those of us that played a class with a button heavy rotation did so because we enjoyed it. I wasn't pained by tracking and weaving in serpent sting, steady shot, kill shot, arcane shot, kill command, etc. into my rotations - I was engaged by it. It gave me things to think about and pay attention to. And I'm sure I wasn't alone.

If there's another class that's even remotely as challenging as hunter used to be, by all means point me to it, but from what I've seen everything has been stripped of all but the most shallow levels of play.

Now that's withered down to 3 active attacks - Kill Command, Dire Beast, and Cobra shot. Yes we can talent for barrage - this has no place in a single target rotation, but I guess if you're desperate you can throw this heinous ability in there for all it's faults. Yes, in theory we could also take Chimaera shot - but this is actually less damage - even on single target - than stomp, which just makes our dire beasts thunderstomp once. So to add a little more flavor to an otherwise bland rotation, we lose DPS.

How can you possibly expect someone that intentionally played a button heavy class/spec with an engaging rotation to be happy with hitting 1,2,3 ad nauseum? Even taking the extra 2 talented shots really doesn't make it near as engaging as it used to be.

Now let's talk trap removal - hunter has had traps since Vanilla. Given they weren't actually worked into the rotation for most specs, and the use of crowd control as a whole has fallen by the wayside in favor of pulling everything and tanking it at once - I still viewed traps as a core mechanic. I used them constantly when soloing - place frost trap at feet in case of aggro, freezing trap was always good for kiting if @$%# really hit the fan. BUT in the mythics I have run with RL friends I saw CC make a come back. The fact that Hunter can't bring a basic core ability that's existed since Vanilla is quite frankly appalling, and a hunter with no traps is no hunter at all.

Pets - these used to have incredible amounts of depth and diversity. Now it's just a sort of remote controlled dot that can be targeted and killed - way too easily. The last time I logged onto this character I couldn't even have pets set to different specs - if I spec one tenacity, the system set them all to that spec. The whole point of increasing the amount of pets we could call to begin with (If I remember right in Vanilla we chose ONE from our stable, and had to go all the way back to the stable if we wanted to swap it) was so we could call different pets for different situations on the spot, not just for aesthetic purposes. It's very disconcerting that they felt the need to make them so banally shallow that an aesthetic change is really all our pets are these days.

I appreciate you making an attempt to smooth things over Ornyx - I know this isn't exactly in your job description, and to be frank it's a bit sad you had to step in and do it for the person that's tasked with it. And I understand it's a lost cause as far as Legion goes. From my standpoint, they've screwed the pooch royally with hunter and it's probably too late to roll it back and make the class playable again - in Legion, or in the foreseeable future. I'd be remiss if I didn't say what they've done with BM and MM has shaken my confidence to the very core, and I doubt I'll ever be able to touch the class again.

But thank you for showing that someone is actually paying attention.
Again, I’m going to quote another player here: “I feel as if I have nothing to bring to a dungeon or instance. From 2005 to the first half of 2016, I could switch roles and do any of the "dirty jobs" as necessary. I would save the healer. I would pull out my turtle for emergency pet-tanking in case the tank went down. I would trap any surprise visitors. I would run to interrupt baddies. And I would kite specific mobs. I loved those jobs. Now, I'm unable to do any of them.”


I just want to re-enforce this statement. It really speaks to me.

Looking at our abilities, I see another couple of oddities.

Feed Pet -- what the heck is the purpose? Is it just just supposed to be a cute novelty ability? Because Eyes of the Beast was much better and was arbitrarily taken away. Feed Pet provides a heal to your pet but ONLY out of combat. This actually, factually does not serve any gameplay function. If you aren't in combat you can just let Mend take care of it and not cost yourself any food. I challenge any Hunter here to tell me the last time Feed Pet's out of combat heal helped them.

Aspect of the Wild -- Once again, our abilities clash with our theme. Beastmastery Hunters are about beasts. Aspect of the Wild was a nature resist aura a million years ago. That has nothing to do with its current function or anything to do with animals. The icon is a freakin' LEAF.

Remember Aspect of the Viper? Remember how that was about recovering a resource? Hey, that's the exact function that Aspect of the Wild serves right now. Remember how Viper is an animal? In fact, a deadly animal. Heck, the deadly bites of a serpent even play into the theme of the critical hit buff it provides.
08/25/2016 06:05 PMPosted by Adalia
One thing I forgot to mention is how completely messed up it is for a ranged spec to not actually have ranged abilities. BM has always been a weird ranged-melee hybrid, but now it's possible to spec so that Cobra Shot is the only ranged ability you have. So we now have a ranged class (hunter) that only has one spec that's actually ranged. That's another reason Chimaera needs to be baseline. I mean, Outlaw rogues have more baseline ranged abilities than the supposedly ranged BM hunters!


I only support this if our last 20 points in our artifact are changed to improve our shot damage. Currently it only boosts pet damage, so Chimera Shot becoming baseline is a weak band-aid. I support the idea of more ranged attacks but only if our artifact passives actually benefit them. Otherwise, no. Any new abilities we get need to be pet centric or they're doomed to not scale well with our mastery or our 15% pet damage bonus.

Say no to Chimera Shot. Vote yes on Lynx Rush for BM 2016.
-fix sidewinders/patient sniper so they aren't the only way to play

-make marksman petless pvp possible by moving utility off of pet and on to hunter. Roar of sac and mortal wounds are too strong

-fix the situation where some pets have no abilities

-sidewinders doesn't fit class fantasy

-explosive shot doesn't fit class fantasy

-aimed shot needs to be mobile

-I honestly don't mind losing traps, I still feel I can keep enemies snared with what I have

-I can't however clear snares on me to kite quick enough

-cheetah is junk reduce cool down and give us a passive run speed boost again

-make volley aoe slow

-make explosive shot have a knock back if you want it to stay

-sidewinders. Ugh. It's so bad

-I feel we have strong pvp potential with just a few minor tweaks even just mobile aimed shot and a way to escape rogues and warrs who can constantly keep us snared and stunned

-move mortal strike and rose of sac off of pets for marks and on to the hunter. I want control of those spells not my pet. Makes sense for bm and sv, but not marks

-I think our artifact will help a lot, but there are core mechanics that are just plain bad, like sidewinders and patient sniper.

-camo needs to be baseline and have the cd start when it's cast not when it ends.

-I love you guys!!

Before, our pets gave us focus through crits. Our crits gave them Cobra Strikes. Their basic attacks set up Frenzy stacks, which increased their attack speed. Then we could slow them down by using those stacks, but we sped ourselves up and gave ourselves more power. It meant there was a lot of give and take. Now? There's literally nothing. Nothing our pets do make us more powerful. Nothing we do makes our pets more powerful.

[/quote]

I'd like to emphasize this particular point, because I think it really hits on where I feel like BM's spec fantasy has been lost on me, and with it, a lot of my connection with my character, connection with the game, and enjoyment of the spec- and while I know that sounds hyperbolic, it's not. Something feels wrong, right now, for the first time in over a decade, and this is it- Demonology Warlock works with the theme of summoning a small army of meaningless minions. Beastmastery Hunter... does not. The descriptions and class flavor of hunters has always been about having a bond with our beast companion- heck, we used to have to actively maintain that bond, once upon a time! And today, the story behind the Artifact, the thing that's supposed to define the flavor of our spec, is that we so quickly forged so close a bond with Hati that we were able to save her after she protected us, because of that bond.

I honestly, truly hope Beastmastery gets reworked again next expansion. I want to see a spec that doubles down and delivers on the relationship between the hunter and their chosen companions.

We need that give-and-take back, where power fluctuates between the hunter and the pet, and they work in tandem, as a partnership. Right now, it feels like the relationship a Warlock has with their demons- we order these expendable beasts around, throwing them into the fray and giving commands. It's not a partnership. It's not a bond, and the spec's feel and fantasy is much weaker for it.

I've played hunter since 2005, and I've never felt like this about it before, even with all the changes it's seen, even with the changeover to Focus. This isn't just me having trouble adjusting to typical expansion changes. My hunter does not feel like himself to play for the first time, and I think this is part of the problem.
I’m sure everything I mention here will have already been touched on in this forum, but I’m another who’s not really loving what has been packaged up for us and shipped as a hunter so I figured I’d weigh in.

Overall
First off, I’m mainly discussing the ranged specs. Survival was what I tried first, and while I’m not hating on it, I won’t consider it at this time. I don’t feel like a hunter when I’m playing it, and after awhile, it causes me to want to log out and log back in on a real melee class. It has an interesting priority and some of the new abilities are “fun”, but overall, the spec doesn’t suit me and it seems a little too vulnerable to be dubbed a “survival” spec.

Hunter design seems poorly thought out and haphazardly rushed. I get that some simplifying is in order, in keeping with the rest of the class changes, but our priorities are not enjoyable. My ret paladin has a very simple 4 button rotation, but it feels good to play, powerful, and he looks great while doing it. Hunter rotation is not very satisfying and the animations are lacking compared to what I’ve seen from the other classes. Since the patch, I’ve played paladin, priest, warlock, warrior, and I find all of their rotations engaging to play on varying levels. Sadly, hunter just feels broken.

I'd prefer it if we went back to having a filler focus regen shot, as opposed to the passive regen with a few abilities that burst-fill our focus bar. Focus now feels feast or famine, and with the dead time which occurs in the rotations, it'd be nice to have something purposeful to do.

Our survivability was hit hard. Losing Spirit Bond, Master’s Call, Frost/Freezing Traps, and having our Deterrence reworked into this Aspect of the Turtle (which is 1000x less cool than Deterrence in terms of animation and flavor), has left me feeling a bit squishy. We need a little help here.

Beast Mastery
I don’t particularly like the trend towards summoner/zookeeper for BM. Personally, I’d much prefer to have talents and abilities that enhance our primary pet rather than me feeling like I’m in a game of Jumanji.

We could use another shot, so it would please myself and many others if Chimera were made baseline. Especially since most everyone is taking that talent anyway - just so there’s another button to push. It would also be nice if the healing element of the shot were reintroduced through an augment of some sort. I think we should have something that offers us a little bit of health regen during combat, apart from Exhilaration or Spirit Mend. Perhaps Chimera could apply a DoT that results in a heal if the target dies before it expires. Just a thought.

Or, since pretty much everyone goes with Posthaste, why not make that ability baseline and have the level 45 talents be a healing / damage mitigation tier. Exhilaration and Spirit Bond could be added back as talents, and the 3rd could be an option which enhances Aspect of the Turtle in some way, e.g., another charge + increased mitigation. That could offer players meaningful options based on their play style.

Many of the talent choices are not compelling and some are just extremely lackluster, e.g., Dash.

Marksmanship
MM felt really bad to me at first, but I’m learning to adjust. It has few abilities, but the procs and buff monitoring keep you paying attention. Also, damage is insane, which feels rewarding in PvE and PvP; however, I can get pretty frustrated with the spec if I’m in a BG with a lot of melee and/or stealth classes. Having to plant myself to maintain pressure leaves me a sitting duck for stealthies that want to roll up on me. We just don’t have enough cooldowns anymore to avoid getting locked down and stomped by melee.

Survivability feels so gimped that I’ve resorted to Camouflage for the health regen out of combat.

Pets
All pets should have some sort of ability. Some of the pain we’re feeling right now could be lessened slightly if a few of our pruned abilities were reintroduced as pet abilities. Every non-exotic should have one ability which benefits soloing, survivability, or brings some additional utility which doesn’t contribute to DPS.

Priority Wishlist
Traps! BM and MM at least need their ice traps back. Survival can have some extra goodies, but taking traps away from BM and MM was a low blow. We need that additional CC. I definitely feel less like a hunter without it.

Make Camouflage baseline again. It fits the hunter “fantasy” and it really seems to have been awkwardly crammed into the talent tree anyway - right alongside 2 CC abilities. It’s not even relevant in that tier.

Give us back Master’s Call. All 3 specs would benefit from this and it would help our survivability quite a bit.

Would be nice to have Tranq Shot back. It wasn’t terribly powerful to begin with, but at least we had some form of dispel.

Aspect of the Cheetah needs something. I’d even settle for a shorter cooldown, but as it stands, it’s pretty ho-hum for an ability we can only use every 3 minutes.

I’m sure there are other things that will come to mind in the next few days, but the stuff I’ve touched on here I’d consider my pressing concerns and biggest complaints.

I’m grateful for this thread. I have hope for the future.
When I heard the changes to survival, I had hoped we could go back to some form of the days of trap dancing (pre black arrow early wrath). I may be in the minority - it was a tricky playstyle that required macros to work really well, but it felt really dynamic.

I think one thing I've always loved about hunters is mobility. The Harpoon I think is a very exciting ability, but without disengage or some way to create space it feels off.

I would like to see disengage restored and then tweaks that reward play from both range and close quarters. I understand from a pvp perspective it would need a check, so maybe a shot that requires being so far from the target and/or a cast time. Or just have a damage bonus to throwing grenades and axes from a distance, so if the player closes on the hunter the benefit is negated.
As a MM enthusiast, I really like the new playstyle of MM in BGs (feel free to flame,) but as I and many others have stated, if there are no changes to mobility, control, or survivability, we will not be viable at all in arenas. The stand as far back as possible and use cast-able abilities has never worked in such small areas such as the maps in arenas. Our casts are so long that opposing teams can either pillar hump or drop of ledges to stop our damage ignoring us while they burn down our teammate(s).

Some suggestions:

Patient Sniper--back in its original form.

Camouflage--needs to be moved from talent tree and put in the spell book. I love how the new camo works, but the CD needs to start once we are camouflaged, not after it is removed. With the Demon Hunter’s Shadow Sight having a 30 sec CD, and our minute CD starting only once the ability is removed, it is sometimes impossible to use camo as intended. In its place in the talent tree have something like “Sticky Flare”—when Hunter’s Marked is applied within a flare it cannot be removed.

Survival Tactics--Needs to be reverted to removes all harmful effects and the damage reduction needs to be back at 100%

Aimed Shot--needs to do more damage in both PVE and PVP. In PVP from 0–5 yards Aimed Shot should be instant, but do less damage, and castable 5-40+ yards with much more damage…or some change that allows us to do decent DMG and be mobile, regardless of procs, once melee is on us.

Bursting Shot--needs to be fixed. It is the CC that replaces traps, but it hardly ever works, it can be fired without a target, which is weird for a MMO, and it should cost 0 focus. It also should knock enemies back at least as far as glyphed explosive shot and it should be 360 degrees, not just a cone in front of us.

Windburst’s--speed buff should be a circular AOE, maybe 40 yards, not just a narrow path between us and our target. Would give us a way to help healers in BGs, which without traps, and especially when just starting out the honor grind, we have no way of helping…other than Bursting Shot which never works.

Mobility--the highest damage spec I have found for BGs utilizes three casted shots…Aimed Shot, Windburst, and Sniper Shot. Now I don’t use all three in a specific rotation, but regardless, the time having to stay stationary is high. I am not saying that all these shots should be instant cast, especially Sniper Shot. However, making some instant, or others movable while casting would help a lot.

Sniper Shot--Needs to be reverted to 60 yard range.

Aspect of the Cheetah--Should remove all movement impairing effects. Basically should act as it does now, but with a Master's Call like freedom.

Survivability--our healing is way too low compared to other DPS classes. I know that in WoD it could get a little out of hand, but with no more Spirit Bond or Aspect of the Iron Hawk, we take a lot of dmg and are unable to heal back up. Even with Camouflage and the talented Feign Death, I am always in the bottom 15% of healing done.
First a brief intro just so whoever reads this can understand where I'm coming from. I can still remember playing my hunter back in vanilla and BC as a raider. Since then I've switched mains I used to raid and I've primarily used him for farming, solo'ing content, and just the general fun factor in collecting unique pets.

I still remember doing the epic hunter quest @ lvl 60 (the one that required 4 demons that you had to kill via various methods), and solo'ing scholo, DM, and a couple of other instances. In BC, I solo'd a few but definitely found great joy in the skills I had developed with kiting and repeatedly CC'ing mobs in heroic dungeons. I still remember my enjoyment using him during WotLK to try to track down and collect the unique and exotic pets they added.

And my thoughts:

Overall:
To me, at this point the hunter no longer feels like a unique class. Sure, we get pets, and they used to feel really unique. You could spec them in various ways and they granted various abilities. That is no longer a possibility. A lot of their abilities have been eliminated. Now, it feels like something else you can transmog and that's about it.

The elimination of traps for the specs beyond survival strikes me as an oddity. Sure, the traps have always felt a little bit odd to use (to me). Especially if you try to insert them into a rotation. But they were there and definitely had their uses. The ice/frost traps felt very requisite, and now they're gone. How am I going to trap a pet I intend to tame now?! Oh hang on I'll CC that...oh nevermind.

The hunter class to me was very mobile. You had a multitude of options to either slow your enemies, or bounce away rapidly. That has mostly been removed. Hunters throughout the years have been known as a class with the ability to kite. I do not feel this ability exists any longer.

You get the idea, to me the hunter class just doesn't FEEL like a hunter anymore. You could change the animations and call it whatever you want its just so...generic.

Beast Master:
Most of my comments in this regard have been stated in the multitude of posts on these forums. Pets die too easy. They just can't sustain themselves like they used to. A mend pet buff would be cool, it would give us something to do while we're just standing there waiting for another ability to use. There doesn't seem to be any synergy with our pets either, they are just a passive dps additive. Shoot even the shadow priest gains insanity from their shadow fiends.

On that note, I agree the rotation feels very bland and unexciting. I realize in the end we're all just standing there pushing buttons, however having buttons to push regularly is very important.

Once my pet (inevitably) dies, I have limited means to escape. Aspect of the Turtle feels very much like it should be a tank ability. "Let's stand here behind this shield and take it!" But once that shield drops you're still standing right next to your target. Your best hope is to out damage your opponent, but quite frankly without your pet it isn't likely to happen.

Marks:
As old school as I am, I actually do enjoy the lone wolf talent. I, personally, like to use BM when solo and use Marks when in dungeons/raids. The marks rotation doesn't sit well with me though. I feel like a turret just standing there casting blizzard or something all day. Same effect, just the button moves. Adding more single target dps into the rotation, or varying the spells a bit between single and aoe would be cool. My ret paladin uses a different rotation spell for single target, aoe, and self heal. Without the traps, kiting, or any real options between rotation and the talents - I feel very cookie cutter.

Survival:
To be honest, I have yet to bother with it. The idea of a melee-only hunter never appealed to me and likely never will. If I want to play a melee class, I will use my warrior, monk, or pally. I realize this is a selfish concept, but after all these years it is very hard for me to ever consider a hunter melee. On the other hand, if survival was a ranged class with melee abilities and a minimum range again like the old days. I'd be all for that!! Having action bars that switched like a rogue when you enter/exit melee range would be pretty awesome, especially if there were reasons (spell/ability wise) to switch between them. Fire off a few aoe spells at range, then grappling hook in and switch to melee for single target or something. That would be worth playing!

Anyway, those are my thoughts. Flame at will. I'll be on my priest or something.
Survivability and the length of our defensive CD's needs serious attention
08/25/2016 06:35 PMPosted by Garwulf
I’m sure everything I mention here will have already been touched on in this forum, but I’m another who’s not really loving what has been packaged up for us and shipped as a hunter so I figured I’d weigh in.

Overall
First off, I’m mainly discussing the ranged specs. Survival was what I tried first, and while I’m not hating on it, I won’t consider it at this time. I don’t feel like a hunter when I’m playing it, and after awhile, it causes me to want to log out and log back in on a real melee class. It has an interesting priority and some of the new abilities are “fun”, but overall, the spec doesn’t suit me and it seems a little too vulnerable to be dubbed a “survival” spec.

Hunter design seems poorly thought out and haphazardly rushed. I get that some simplifying is in order, in keeping with the rest of the class changes, but our priorities are not enjoyable. My ret paladin has a very simple 4 button rotation, but it feels good to play, powerful, and he looks great while doing it. Hunter rotation is not very satisfying and the animations are lacking compared to what I’ve seen from the other classes. Since the patch, I’ve played paladin, priest, warlock, warrior, and I find all of their rotations engaging to play on varying levels. Sadly, hunter just feels broken.

I'd prefer it if we went back to having a filler focus regen shot, as opposed to the passive regen with a few abilities that burst-fill our focus bar. Focus now feels feast or famine, and with the dead time which occurs in the rotations, it'd be nice to have something purposeful to do.

Our survivability was hit hard. Losing Spirit Bond, Master’s Call, Frost/Freezing Traps, and having our Deterrence reworked into this Aspect of the Turtle (which is 1000x less cool than Deterrence in terms of animation and flavor), has left me feeling a bit squishy. We need a little help here.

Beast Mastery
I don’t particularly like the trend towards summoner/zookeeper for BM. Personally, I’d much prefer to have talents and abilities that enhance our primary pet rather than me feeling like I’m in a game of Jumanji.

We could use another shot, so it would please myself and many others if Chimera were made baseline. Especially since most everyone is taking that talent anyway - just so there’s another button to push. It would also be nice if the healing element of the shot were reintroduced through an augment of some sort. I think we should have something that offers us a little bit of health regen during combat, apart from Exhilaration or Spirit Mend. Perhaps Chimera could apply a DoT that results in a heal if the target dies before it expires. Just a thought.

Or, since pretty much everyone goes with Posthaste, why not make that ability baseline and have the level 45 talents be a healing / damage mitigation tier. Exhilaration and Spirit Bond could be added back as talents, and the 3rd could be an option which enhances Aspect of the Turtle in some way, e.g., another charge + increased mitigation. That could offer players meaningful options based on their play style.

Many of the talent choices are not compelling and some are just extremely lackluster, e.g., Dash.

Marksmanship
MM felt really bad to me at first, but I’m learning to adjust. It has few abilities, but the procs and buff monitoring keep you paying attention. Also, damage is insane, which feels rewarding in PvE and PvP; however, I can get pretty frustrated with the spec if I’m in a BG with a lot of melee and/or stealth classes. Having to plant myself to maintain pressure leaves me a sitting duck for stealthies that want to roll up on me. We just don’t have enough cooldowns anymore to avoid getting locked down and stomped by melee.

Survivability feels so gimped that I’ve resorted to Camouflage for the health regen out of combat.

Pets
All pets should have some sort of ability. Some of the pain we’re feeling right now could be lessened slightly if a few of our pruned abilities were reintroduced as pet abilities. Every non-exotic should have one ability which benefits soloing, survivability, or brings some additional utility which doesn’t contribute to DPS.

Priority Wishlist
Traps! BM and MM at least need their ice traps back. Survival can have some extra goodies, but taking traps away from BM and MM was a low blow. We need that additional CC. I definitely feel less like a hunter without it.

Make Camouflage baseline again. It fits the hunter “fantasy” and it really seems to have been awkwardly crammed into the talent tree anyway - right alongside 2 CC abilities. It’s not even relevant in that tier.

Give us back Master’s Call. All 3 specs would benefit from this and it would help our survivability quite a bit.

Would be nice to have Tranq Shot back. It wasn’t terribly powerful to begin with, but at least we had some form of dispel.

Aspect of the Cheetah needs something. I’d even settle for a shorter cooldown, but as it stands, it’s pretty ho-hum for an ability we can only use every 3 minutes.

I’m sure there are other things that will come to mind in the next few days, but the stuff I’ve touched on here I’d consider my pressing concerns and biggest complaints.

I’m grateful for this thread. I have hope for the future.


Not sure what happened to my post? I don't have time to re-type it and this guy summed up most of my thoughts anyway. Listen to this guy!
In the last tread I gave my feedback about MM, but now I would like to give some suggestion.

-Remove the Vulnerability / Hunters mark mechanics entirely.
-Bring back the WoD MM feel. Which was:
- A powerful shot (Former Chimera, now Piercing Shot baseline).
- Aimed Shot (Focus spender, Instant).
- Arcane Shot (Focus builder. Cast time, cast-able while moving).
- Kill Shot. (You want Furry warrior to be the only executioner, I get it, but could at least MM have a ranged execute? it's not the same mechanic, and fits the Archer Fantasy pretty well).

-Rework Bursting Shot to be a Knockback, that actually throws 1 target back like Explosive Trap use to do. So we can throw people off cliff again, or just receive some room, but as I said, 1 target per shot, it doesn't sound OP.

-Revert Aspect of the Cheetah to WoD glyphed state.
The old Aspect of the cheetah was much more fun. Even tho the new one could be actually better in some cases, because it's a buff that don't drop on damage, I'd gladly spent a talent to pick the old (glyphed) one. The old Aspect of the Cheetah was nothing more than a pleasant way to do world content, nothing more, It was a flavor of the class. Like Mages have portals, Warlocks can summon, DH can double jump, Hunters (used to) run faster on the ground. If your concerns are balance, just make it drop in combat.
''Aspect of the Cheetah: (passive) +30% run speed while not in combat''

-I miss the talent to reduce the CD on Disengage. The new Farstrider is very clunky IMO, a chance on crit to reset the CD. It's a chance of a chance. I'd rather have it simply reducing the CD.

MM Hunter have a lot of synergy spent on Talent tree just accommodate, or try to make it less clunky, the Vulnerability system, and it's a lot of wasted energy IMO, this mechanic is not fun, and is going nowhere. If you take Vulnerability away entirely, see how many talents go down with it, it's a lot of wasted talent potential, and still, those talents are not capable of making the mechanic fun to play.
I strongly suggest Kahoshi post should be looked at regarding old Explosive Shot replacing Aimed Shot and adding Black Arrow to another tier to replace Marked.

This WOULD really bring back the playstyle of old-SV which ppl like me loved.

LnL(Which could also use a buff.) atm affects Aimed Shot so it would be logical to let Explosive Shot benefit from this talent if it was chosen.

This way we could choose to build our Hunter into a heavily Magical DoT spec with sustained damage or upfront burst damage spec

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