Let's Talk: Part 2

Hunter
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What's with all the rogues (and now a monk) in a hunter thread? I know surv's melee now and can stealth, but we're still not rogues, and you won't get rogue help around here.

Or monk.
10/18/2016 03:39 PMPosted by Reimmi
This is a HUNTER thread take your other class issues to your own forums.


Our class issues are all over our own class forums, but Blizzard isn't reading them.

I've been posting about rogue issues on the rogue forum and on the PvP forums and on the alpha/beta forums for the past year.

I've written hundreds of pages of feedback and evidently all of it has been ignored because my class is still, just like yours, a dumbed down pruned down version that doesn't resemble itself at all anymore.
10/18/2016 03:40 PMPosted by Alberron
What's with all the rogues (and now a monk) in a hunter thread? I know surv's melee now and can stealth, but we're still not rogues, and you won't get rogue help around here.

Or monk.

Cause the last time blizzard posted in the monk forums Loremaster Cho hadn't even met a bloodelf.
10/18/2016 03:43 PMPosted by Tychi
10/18/2016 03:40 PMPosted by Alberron
What's with all the rogues (and now a monk) in a hunter thread? I know surv's melee now and can stealth, but we're still not rogues, and you won't get rogue help around here.

Or monk.

Cause the last time blizzard posted in the monk forums Loremaster Cho hadn't even met a bloodelf.


Hey sounds like hunters giving feedback since alpha and not getting any response OR fixes until after Legion launched! Oh wait, we still don't have those fixes. We all got problems, deal with yours in your own forum. At least you have two fun, functional specs.
the only way to save class design in this expansion is to burn it to the ground, fire everyone who was responsible for it, hire better qualified people, and have them start over from scratch

PvP in this expansion is a total abortion and class design is the #1 reason why
You claim to be listening? Explain then why you ignored, didn't know and didn't understand the issues with hunters as far back as alpha and beta. Your actions are speaking louder than your words. Much louder; many posts with good valid legit feedback went unanswered and ignored.

Go read them, evaluate them and act on them, they're waiting, still. Show us, don't tell us, words honestly right now are meaningless as we can see your actions are not matching your words.
10/18/2016 03:53 PMPosted by Kyuui
You claim to be listening? Explain then why you ignored, didn't know and didn't understand the issues with hunters as far back as alpha and beta. Your actions are speaking louder than your words. Much louder; many posts with good valid legit feedback went unanswered and ignored.

Go read them, evaluate them and act on them, they're waiting, still. Show us, don't tell us, words honestly right now are meaningless as we can see your actions are not matching your words.


they deleted the alpha/beta forums, otherwise I would be linking threads from 10 months ago with dozens of pages and hundreds of upvotes covering the exact same issues that we're discussing in this thread today

it's like they had their head buried in the sand for all of alpha/beta. more likely they knew all along that class design was in a horrible state and were just rushing to meet their release deadline
<span class="truncated">...</span>Is there a reason why you only post in certain class forums? You seem to mainly just post here and communicate a lot with Hunters, but our Rogue forum is deserted even though Outlaw is among the lowest (in many cases, very bottom) DPS. Yo'd think you would be more concerned with assisting the classes who need it, like Rogues and DK's.

Reiterating his first point here -
If it seems like there's a lot of "listening to feedback," and not much in the way of answers or concrete plans, it's because we haven't yet formulated those answers, not because there won't be any or because we don't care to.
As I mentioned to you yesterday, we are aware of the feedback from Outlaw Rogues in general. I myself am working to get some insight to share on the state of the spec today. I really do appreciate your patience while I try to gather some information from the developers on this.


Sorry to be that Ele Sham who pops in on Hunters being talked to about Rogues...

... Is there any kind of "Trying to get some love for you guys" you can tell us Ele? We're trying to hard not to go Warlock about this...

Fun fact, I'm rerolling Warlock for raids, because I find it just as fun as Ele, but at least they got some love.
P.S. all hunters should get scatter shot and traps, all rogues should get poisons, etc

removing these things didn't strengthen anyone's class fantasy, it just took these classes further away from the things that made them awesome in the first place
10/18/2016 03:40 PMPosted by Alberron
What's with all the rogues (and now a monk) in a hunter thread? I know surv's melee now and can stealth, but we're still not rogues, and you won't get rogue help around here.

Or monk.
You missed the DK, war, and mage complaints? =p

@Watcher: Responding to this thread is a step in the right direction, so thanks for that. Now if you'll just follow it up with something a bit more concrete....

Hopefully your tolerance for bile and vitriol hasn't been too taxed. =p
My earlier reply was trying to be focused, but it came off terse. I want to emphasize how much I appreciate Ornyx and Watcher taking the time to make these posts. These posts provide valuable insight into dev thinking and reassurance that someone cares enough to take the time to pick out our legitimate concerns from our histrionics. Also, I know just how long a post like this can take to craft and polish. Their willingness to take that time demonstrates to me that the guys at the top (grats, Watcher!) get it.

Today's post has restored my faith that hunters will someday again be a class I'd want to play (not during Legion because of AK, but...). I'm pretty sure I'd be reassured also if I had the same complaints about another class. Let's hope we can keep constructive dialog going as this game goes forward.
In conclusion: We won't be "fixing" hunters till 7.2 at least, so enjoy the constant nerfs (I'm sorry, "altercations") until then!

I remember back in beta when people claimed 8.0 would fix it, and I'm inclined to agree at this point. Only thing blizzard seems to be doing is stagnating the process of fixing hunters, even after threads all saying that the specs need major work since alpha.

My last post said I was "playing less and less day by day," but now I'm just not playing all together.

Legion could be great if they ported literally any other expac's variants of classes over then balanced them better than before. This expac's classes are in general a snore-fest, especially in the train-wreck that is PvP.
10/18/2016 04:59 PMPosted by Chandrassa
My earlier reply was trying to be focused, but it came off terse. I want to emphasize how much I appreciate Ornyx and Watcher taking the time to make these posts. These posts provide valuable insight into dev thinking and reassurance that someone cares enough to take the time to pick out our legitimate concerns from our histrionics. Also, I know just how long a post like this can take to craft and polish. Their willingness to take that time demonstrates to me that the guys at the top (grats, Watcher!) get it.

Today's post has restored my faith that hunters will someday again be a class I'd want to play (not during Legion because of AK, but...). I'm pretty sure I'd be reassured also if I had the same complaints about another class. Let's hope we can keep constructive dialog going as this game goes forward.


I'm sorry, but I can't get behind giving them so much credit for finally acknowledging the concerns first communicated at the beginning of Alpha and then excusing their lack of solutions by telling us how risky it is to fix said concerns in the middle of an expansion. They've had the entire length of the development process to address these problems and yet they are acting like they've never seen this feedback until now.

I'm glad they finally acknowledged our feedback, but talk is cheap, especially when it is 10 months late.
10/18/2016 12:16 AMPosted by Watcher
Hi.

If it seems like there's a lot of "listening to feedback," and not much in the way of answers or concrete plans, it's because we haven't yet formulated those answers, not because there won't be any or because we don't care to.

Overall, the 7.0 patch and the Legion expansion probably saw more total change to class mechanics than any other single update in the game's history. And hunters were among the most affected. That sort of revamp represents the beginning of a cycle of feedback and iteration, not an endpoint, and we know there's a lot of work left to do here.

In the weeks immediately following launch, the team has primarily been focused on fixing bugs and on overall spec balance. Numerical tuning isn't everything, but it can be done straightforwardly, often via hotfix, to get changes into players' hands as quickly as possible. The team's goal in this phase is for players of each spec to feel like they can succeed in the Legion endgame. But, of course, numerical viability doesn't mean much if you aren't enjoying the feel or mechanics of your class.

The next phase of iteration will focus on talent rows that seem devoid of choice, often because there is one dominant "correct" option. Through a mix of numbers balance and some redesign where needed, we'll aim to improve talent diversity, opening up new playstyles and options in the process. That is our plan for all classes, but it applies especially to hunters, where talent diversity is often sorely lacking. These types of changes require more testing time and iteration than pure DPS tuning: This is why planned changes to priests' Surrender to Madness, or paladins' Crusade, were delayed until a later patch in order to allow for more thorough evaluation.

Finally, we'll move on to evaluating base class and spec toolkits. Those types of changes are the riskiest to make, especially in the middle of an expansion, because they affect the core experience of every player of a given spec. But we don't plan on waiting an entire expansion to address concerns like the ones that have been raised in this thread. All sorts of potential changes are on the table. For example, in retrospect, while a focus on traps strengthened Survival spec identity, taking so many traps away from Marks/BM entirely was harmful to hunter class identity. But changes like those can only happen in a full patch, and will benefit from a lengthy PTR cycle.

PS: Yes, I realize that hunters don't have an ability called Deterrence anymore, and I should have said Turtle instead. Force of habit - I also still called Hand of Protection "BoP" for years (though now it actually is BoP again...). Sorry.


I will admit, this was a pleasant surprise. I did not expect a response from you personally and it is certainly nice to see.

That said, myself and I dare say a fair amount of other Hunters remain to be convinced. While statements like this are nice to hear, these are the sort of conversations you should have been having with us in early alpha/beta and not over a month after launch in to Legion. Many of us have invested a lot of time and resources in to our Hunters and right now, I for one feel like I have utterly wasted both. I have a choice out of exactly one semi-viable spec for PvP (my favoured aspect of the game) that you guys keep nerfing every few days regardless of the fact it still gets floored by most melee classes (which are still going around nearly untouched) and still shacked by ghastly pet AI issues. PvE is much the same deal which can be boiled down to "Go MM or go home" with its new, awful mechanics and one viable talent build.

Nowhere in to this mix fits Survival which is it's own special bag of problems. Not only is it vastly inferior to the current cadre of golden boy melee specs dominating every area of the game but it literally does not work in many encounters thanks to an array of bugs on things like Harpoon, Explosive Trap and Flanking Strike/pet AI.

Again, all of these are elements that should have been nailed in beta at the latest and yet here we are a month and a half later with no relief on the horizon and nothing even remotely specific. My genuine question to you then, Ion is what the devil is the Hunter community supposed to do? It is looking less and less likely 7.1 will provide any assistance to any of our specs and with no details on what eventually will be improved, if anything, I am at a complete loss what to do. I do not find my class I have spent nearly 12 years on entertaining in its current state due to having LESS depth than it did in vanilla and thanks to the amazingly unfriendly post-levelling progression system, changing mains is painful if not outright impractical if I do not want to be left behind.

That leaves me with the option of quitting and trying something else because with six weeks left on my subscription, even the social aspect of WoW doesn't make my class any less shallow and dull to play. I don't say this as a childish threat but more to show I literally cannot see any other plausible option. We do not have a fallback of "switch to that good spec" or "try tank/healer" because we literally do not HAVE these options. All three specs are crippled versions of their former glory and this is the core of the problem.

In conclusion, while I am happy you finally decided to talk to us, it should not have taken nearly this much time and emotion to get some form of meaningful communication. Additionally, even in light of what you have to say, I really and honestly have no idea what to think of all this. We still have no idea when anything will be resolved and even what that it will involve even when you do. It still leaves us in this black hole of uncertainty while our class continues to wallow in a state which I think is no exaggeration to say is the worst it has ever been in terms of enjoyment, theme and depth.
While the response is nice, why weren't these addressed in the 9 mos leading up to launch when players were repeating the same problems that they are saying now? You didn't make the changes when it was easy to, now you hesitate to make any changes because you claim it's hard to.

Next time it may benefit everyone if you listen to people to start with and not wait until you've tied your hands. Your dilemma is self-inflicted and now you are forcing the players to suffer the consequences.
It would be so nice if BM had an offensive dispel via Tranq shot. It would bring some arena utility to a class that only has one cc that is dispellable by over 10 specs in the game. Let us not forget that exotic pets don't do anything this xpac.
09/09/2016 09:41 PMPosted by Scruffi
Well, since you did ask. Finally.

I play mainly Beastmaster, and only that so far in Legion, so my comments pertain primarily to that.

I’ve gotten used to the new rotation/shot priorities. I’m personally okay with a bit of simplification here - I don’t think micro-managing shot rotations and energy bars is a fun minigame.

I enjoy what I can DO in the game. How I can help my party survive and win. How I can help improve their survival in adverse and changing conditions by keeping an eye on them — all of them — from range, and reacting in a split second to manage a bad pull, or gather/stop stray mobs from eating the healers. Or any of the other ways I’ve saved their lives over the years with pets/traps/misdirection/emergency pet taking, etc.

What I miss are the quality of life features that have been part of the DNA of the class/spec for 10-11 years.

i believe people choose classes/specs much more based on the inherent play style, certainly more than any arbitrarily dictated “class fantasy.” When the game was created, careful attention was paid to cover as many modes of playstyle as possible. To cover the bases for several kinds of ranged DPS, melee DPS, tanks, healers, etc. They did such a good job of this, the game has held its popularity over more than a decade, in spite of contentions players have had about the storylines, the expansions, the vast gulfs of no-content, etc. Small changes over time have worn some specs thin, but there was enough familiarity and inherent, long-standing structure that we lived with it. Mechanics and expectations that endured for 11 years because they worked and there was understanding.

NOW, in Legion, my moment to moment gameplay is a constant stream of frustration. “Oh, wait, I can’t do that any more. Oh, right, that’s gone now. Oh yes, that doesn’t DO anything worth doing, so there’s no point in even clicking the button.” And so on.

And now, with the new Barrage, a frequent helping of, “well, I have NO IDEA WHAT I’M SHOOTING, so LOL."

Or with Volley, “is that… is it even doing anything? I can’t tell.” Which, by the way, it’s insulting to call this effect Volley. This is Blizzard trolling hunters, calling this thing Volley. I knew Volley. I worked with Volley. This, sir, is no Volley.

And some things just make no sense, even from a “class fantasy” point of view. I know it’s been harped on, but Beastmasters get a GUN and Marksmen - the SNIPER spec - get a BOW? I mean, how obviously off base can you get? This has never made any sense, and it still doesn’t. Also, the gun models look like throwaway art from previous expansions, but that’s not what this is about. Transmogging Titanstrike was the very first thing I did to it.

Removing Spirit Mend - the real one - makes no sense. This was the ultimate expression of so-called “class fantasy” for BM hunters. And USEFUL to boot. Not so powerful that it decided combats, but very handy between fights. And replacing it with.. what? a sprinkle of health returned from a percentage of Kill Command damage? Does that even move the bar? And it only works in combat anyway, and effectively does nothing. Useless.

Removing all traps. Particularly galling since they’ve been part of all hunter specs for over a decade. No more CC in dungeons and raids. For hunters. I don’t know where you’re suddenly getting your ideas of “class fantasy” from, but utility and versatility has been part of the hunter fantasy since the game began. Now gone. Again, people pick a class because of how it plays, not because they want to BE some fictional archetype. No one started a hunter character because they really wanted to BE Rexxar. Frankly, most players probably don’t know the lore well enough these days to have any idea about class fantasy. They just know they want to tank, or heal, or turn into a bear, or support their team with sustained ranged dps with a pet for utility and versatility. THAT'S the class fantasy. Being useful.

Removing pet buffs. If you wanted to erase everything that makes pets interesting, that makes it interesting and fun to seek out specific pets, you’ve done a great job of making them all completely generic. The few remaining exotic effects I expect you’ll get around to removing at some point. They’re all but cosmetic already. After that’s done just give them all the same appearance, too and name them all Pet. That’ll finish the job.

Pets seem to be really stupid now. Pathing intelligence is bad. Assist doesn’t react at all when I get attacked; Assist should react when I attack AND when I am attacked. Having to micromanage the pets ASSISTING their hunter just makes this annoying. When I DO have pet on Assist, he seems to just sit there for a good few seconds after I start attacking something, like he’s not SURE if I really mean it yet.

We still have no AOE. Targeted multishots are not an area effect. I mean, I’ve given up on wasting my breath on this one, since this is an intentional - if ill-conceived - design flaw built in to hunters, since the removal of the real Volley. But, you know, as long as we’re on the subject of things that are wrong...

Aspect of the Cheetah is utterly worthless. I took it off my buttons. It was fine before because it effectively only worked out of combat.

Removing Camouflage is irritating, but not critical.

The new Stampede is a real degrade from before. A directed beam of damage that is only useful under specific circumstances. If your aim is off, or if, you know, the boss moves, you’ve wasted the effort. And it doesn’t seem to work at all in water or on inclines. I don’t know where the animals actually GO, but the CD activates and no animals, so… underground maybe? Who knows?!

Bestial Wrath. It no longer does ANYTHING except boost damage for a few seconds - no reduced shot cost, no unkillibility, no trap/cc breakage/ no fear immunity, nothing, it’s been completely stripped. You could get rid of BW now and fold the boosted damage into the base spec and not lose anything except having to press a button for it. OH, AND, ORANGE IS NOT THE COLOR OF BESTIAL WRATH. Turn the effect back to RED, you noobs.

So. Take away traps, pet buffs, AOE, flatten Bestial Wrath, ruin Cheetah, remove Spirit Bond and Camouflage — and you remove most of the usefulness, utility, flexibility, and versatility of the spec. You’re left with a class that has been reduced to a generic, flavorless dps hose with cosmetic pet graphics.

That’s not the class fantasy I’ve been playing with for 11 years.


I realize this post was quoted several times ~40 pages ago as that I've been following (and posting) here since before Legion was launched. Now that this thread is actually getting some attention from CM's and game Dev's, it feels like the perfect opportunity to re-quote it one last time. I've read close to every post here and the majority of them involve a very strong analysis of the problems hunters are facing - that said, this one in particular has always stood out to me as that I can't imagine being able to "hit the nail on the head" anymore directly than he did. While it is pointed specifically at Beast Mastery, a large portion is applicable to the class as a whole. Watcher and Orynx, if you take this post to heart, I'm confident our beloved Hunter class will be headed in the right direction going forward. Thanks for taking the time to get us up-to-date on Blizzard's end.

*Believe in the section about Spirit Mend (name for spirit beast heal), he was referring to Spirit Bond, easy to mix up in a long post like that!

On that note, I don't blame you for mixing up Deterrence and Turtle as that I will always think of it as "Deterrence" in my mind. However, having an ability named Turtle does feel appropriate with the ridiculous new CD on AoTC following the beyond 'unnecessary and unfortunate' rework. I feel like my hunter must have aged 50 years between WoD and Legion because I am now moving at base speed 99% of the time I'm playing. It feels weird constantly forcing myself to Disengage as a means of getting to where I need to go faster with Posthaste. I've always considered Disengage to be a reactive ability I use to escape danger or dodge a mechanic/melee. Now it's more of a use on CD so I'm not so freakishly slow all the time (and of course if I actually ever need it for reasons it's intended for, it's on CD).
10/18/2016 06:58 PMPosted by Xenerat
Next time it may benefit everyone if you listen to people to start with and not wait until you've tied your hands. Your dilemma is self-inflicted and now you are forcing the players to suffer the consequences.


My thoughts exactly. While I don't think casting excessive blame is constructive, I am far from satisfied with the idea of waiting an undefined amount of time in the hope of maybe having my class made fun again.

I think Ion reaching out to us is a good start (if woefully past due) but we really need more to go on than being told to sit on our hands and wait.
10/18/2016 12:16 AMPosted by Watcher
If it seems like there's a lot of "listening to feedback," and not much in the way of answers or concrete plans, it's because we haven't yet formulated those answers, not because there won't be any or because we don't care to.


Wait... so after 10 months of beta and 7 weeks of live, you still don't know how to address our concerns?
Hi.

If it seems like there's a lot of "listening to feedback," and not much in the way of answers or concrete plans...


Can you hurry up and throw us a bone in the meantime? You set the game up now to focus and invest a lot of time and effort into one character so now you have a million hunters paying a subscription for a very lackluster experience. How long do we have to wait and pay for something that sucks? How about not doing things completely backwards like nerfing us for starters?

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