Let's Talk: Part 2

Hunter
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10/18/2016 12:16 AMPosted by Watcher
For example, in retrospect, while a focus on traps strengthened Survival spec identity, taking so many traps away from Marks/BM entirely was harmful to hunter class identity.


Seeing someone from Blizzard finally admit that this was a really bad idea has given me some hope. Unfortunately, it feels like the kind of hope I have that it will snow for Christmas every year.....living where I do in Texas, that happens about once a decade.

The hope is very small, but I still keep hoping.
10/18/2016 12:16 AMPosted by Watcher
Finally, we'll move on to evaluating base class and spec toolkits. Those types of changes are the riskiest to make, especially in the middle of an expansion, because they affect the core experience of every player of a given spec. But we don't plan on waiting an entire expansion to address concerns like the ones that have been raised in this thread. All sorts of potential changes are on the table. For example, in retrospect, while a focus on traps strengthened Survival spec identity, taking so many traps away from Marks/BM entirely was harmful to hunter class identity. But changes like those can only happen in a full patch, and will benefit from a lengthy PTR cycle.


I renewed my subscription primarily because of this paragraph. I hope it doesn't end in disappointment, but I'll be giving your team the benefit of the doubt.
My biggest problem with BM now is the lack of Pet choices. I want to walk with a Mana wyrm, not a Quilen. The Quilen can Ressurect and have a defensive CD, while Mana Wyrms have nothing... We have limited families of Pets we ''can'' use. There's no reason to walk with a Bear, just to justify the opening cinematic of WoW with that Dwarf Hunter and his fellow Bear... class fantasy is being ignored here.

Lets us teach our pets the (additional) abilities, or create a pet talent system with all abilities so we can customize them.

Also, I've come to a lot of hunters that didn't even know there's some pets that can lust or Bress, as I didn't before visiting external sources. We need a system where we can see all the abilities that pets can have and teak any ability in any pet we want.
I think pets need to be customizable, too. Give them personal buffs we can choose from, and abilities we can choose from. Pets need to have their own talent tree again.
For BM.

Make Chimera Shot Baseline, it's not fun play a spec that you need sometimes wait 4-7 sec to use any ability waiting cuz our focus is down and dire beast won't proc to regen.
Make dire beast when proc doesn't enter in CD, it's 2 charges but only when proc, it's anoying to see dire beast proc when the CD is like 2-1 sec or when is already up.
Bring back pet's utility wiht the old skills.
Master Call.
Reduce CD from AMoC to 30 sec to improve a little our ST.
Bring back Kill Shot to improve our ST.

The big issue from BM is the lack of skills and ST, when we have the burst up is nice but when it end, our dps goes to the ground and we need wait like 40sec for BW come's up again and use like 2-3 skill that will fill our ST during a short time and the circle is now back waiting for our CD's come back.
10/18/2016 02:18 AMPosted by Zaelynn
10/18/2016 12:16 AMPosted by Watcher
Finally, we'll move on to evaluating base class and spec toolkits. Those types of changes are the riskiest to make, especially in the middle of an expansion, because they affect the core experience of every player of a given spec.

Forgive me for being a cynic, but the team has had nearly a YEAR to consider and address the issues that the hunter community had been quite vocal about during Alpha and Beta testing. Not only was the feedback largely ignored, but concerns weren't even acknowledged and only minor alterations were made before going live. And it's because of that fact, that I don't find it farfetched we could potentially go another whole expansion (or several) without seeing changes leading to more engaging and meaningful gameplay. I certainly won't be holding my breath.

It was already risky going into Legion with 3 specs that only shared a name with their former iterations. Honestly, hunters may as well have been a new class with how many changes were introduced. Instead of using pruning shears, you took a chainsaw and transformed a beautiful white oak into a patio chair for melee to sit on.

It's great you decided to break the silence, but it would be incredibly naive to think the "core experience of every player" was not already disrupted by the numerous, unwarranted and (most importantly) drastic changes to hunters in 7.0. How anyone thought it was simply OKAY to remove SV as a ranged spec and have NO hunter spec play as it did previously... To be stripped of all utility, to have baseline abilities poorly rehashed as artifact traits, to make a spec revolve around pure RNG... To add a 1.5 sec GCD to already painfully slow rotations, is really beyond me... Why? No one has yet explained WHY these decisions were made in the first place. It all just seems it was for the sake of change - none of it makes any bit of sense and the changes are certainly NOT improvements to the class. All the specs feel incomplete, they lack depth, they lack utility, and I personally feel betrayed. To take away a spec I've been passionate about for nearly 10 years with no solid explanation... My main is unrecognizable; That is something no amount of content or tuning can fix. Please, someone, do explain to me why. At this point, I am much more interested in hearing why it happened, rather than what numbers you plan on adjusting.


I'm not a fan of blood elves at ALL but you're rocking that mog like a true Boss Lady.

For the sake of all fashionable, fabulous hunters out there: NEVER quit your hunter main! We need all of the good ones we can muster!
10/20/2016 05:46 AMPosted by Setsou
10/18/2016 12:16 AMPosted by Watcher
Finally, we'll move on to evaluating base class and spec toolkits. Those types of changes are the riskiest to make, especially in the middle of an expansion, because they affect the core experience of every player of a given spec. But we don't plan on waiting an entire expansion to address concerns like the ones that have been raised in this thread. All sorts of potential changes are on the table. For example, in retrospect, while a focus on traps strengthened Survival spec identity, taking so many traps away from Marks/BM entirely was harmful to hunter class identity. But changes like those can only happen in a full patch, and will benefit from a lengthy PTR cycle.


I renewed my subscription primarily because of this paragraph. I hope it doesn't end in disappointment, but I'll be giving your team the benefit of the doubt.


Wow. I hope so too, Setty. I hope so too.

I don't know you from Thrall but I'm sure many people would miss seeing you go. :)
10/19/2016 10:48 PMPosted by Jalën
This threads title is a bit misleading.....


Its always been misleading...we talk, have offered suggestions, feedback (tons of it on Alpha and Beta - but oh well) we the hunter community is just writing a novel.
10/20/2016 07:06 AMPosted by Måg
10/18/2016 02:18 AMPosted by Zaelynn
...
Forgive me for being a cynic, but the team has had nearly a YEAR to consider and address the issues that the hunter community had been quite vocal about during Alpha and Beta testing. Not only was the feedback largely ignored, but concerns weren't even acknowledged and only minor alterations were made before going live. And it's because of that fact, that I don't find it farfetched we could potentially go another whole expansion (or several) without seeing changes leading to more engaging and meaningful gameplay. I certainly won't be holding my breath.

It was already risky going into Legion with 3 specs that only shared a name with their former iterations. Honestly, hunters may as well have been a new class with how many changes were introduced. Instead of using pruning shears, you took a chainsaw and transformed a beautiful white oak into a patio chair for melee to sit on.

It's great you decided to break the silence, but it would be incredibly naive to think the "core experience of every player" was not already disrupted by the numerous, unwarranted and (most importantly) drastic changes to hunters in 7.0. How anyone thought it was simply OKAY to remove SV as a ranged spec and have NO hunter spec play as it did previously... To be stripped of all utility, to have baseline abilities poorly rehashed as artifact traits, to make a spec revolve around pure RNG... To add a 1.5 sec GCD to already painfully slow rotations, is really beyond me... Why? No one has yet explained WHY these decisions were made in the first place. It all just seems it was for the sake of change - none of it makes any bit of sense and the changes are certainly NOT improvements to the class. All the specs feel incomplete, they lack depth, they lack utility, and I personally feel betrayed. To take away a spec I've been passionate about for nearly 10 years with no solid explanation... My main is unrecognizable; That is something no amount of content or tuning can fix. Please, someone, do explain to me why. At this point, I am much more interested in hearing why it happened, rather than what numbers you plan on adjusting.


I'm not a fan of blood elves at ALL but you're rocking that mog like a true Boss Lady.

For the sake of all fashionable, fabulous hunters out there: NEVER quit your hunter main! We need all of the good ones we can muster!


I WOULD LOVE to main my hunter, but right now, I CANNOT in good conscious play her because I fall asleep at my keyboard. The excitement, the fun, the VIABILITY and SURVIVABILITY has been stripped (traps, camo, unique and exotic beasts that had buffs AND giving BM a frikkin elekk-nozzle shaped gun?! Watch my IQ fall through the ground with a 'splat!') and yet there are (new) hunters saying "DPS is great!" - IT'S NEVER been about how much DPS, tuning, numbers, etc. and I've played a hunter since BC - its about WHAT the hunter (BM spec being my fav) was able to BRING to the table (PvP, raids, BGs, PvE) and right now, I don't feel I can bring anything because its a shell, very cracked egged one of its former self that I grew to love and played MORE often than my druid (who is exploring Legion for me and I keep seeing pets I want, BUT I honestly cannot bring myself to play my huntress) Just NOT going to happen till hunter community and the 3 specs are fixed properly.
You say that your main goal is to make every spec feel viable in the end game, but right now 90% of mail gear dropping end game (inculding upcoming valor and karazhan) has mastery, with little to no versatility. Your senior game designer has also stated that one of your major goals is to make a large item level upgrade on a piece of gear feel worthwhile. PLEASE fix mastery for Survival (as well as elemental shaman) or we have no end game viability and terrible scaling.
10/19/2016 10:01 AMPosted by Adreaver
Easy fixes for all Hunters - do these ASAP via Hotfix or roll them in to 7.1:
  • Add token abilities to all Hunter pets. This can be a snare, Mortal Strike, small bleed, anything. There is zero reason for any pet to have no family ability other than laziness.
  • Add Master's Call back in, or have Disengage remove movement-impairing abilities baseline.
  • Give BM and MM Freezing Trap and Ice Trap, exactly as they were in WoD and earlier. Shared CD. No other traps necessary, but these ones are. This restores the baseline CC that is expected of the Hunter class (not by just Hunters either - raid leaders became accustomed to asking for Ice Traps for add control).
  • Camouflage: Make it baseline for all specs in its current, talented form. Give MM and SV an "Improved Camouflage" talent that lasts until canceled and reduces the CD to 30 seconds.
    - Camouflage has been a staple of the class for the last 3 expansions, and for it to be relegated to a "never pick" talent (because it competes with Binding Shot) is inexcusable.
  • Aspect of the Cheetah: Increase to two charges at the current CD, or reduce the CD by half. Reduce the maximum speed increase from 90% to 70% increase (Rogue Sprint is 70%) if needed for balancing purposes. This is a great tool, but we can rarely use it often enough to make a difference.
  • Aspect of the Turtle: Increase to two charges at the current CD, or reduce the CD by half. Reduce duration of Turtle back to 5 seconds (Deterrence was 5 seconds) if needed for balancing purposes. Again, this is a great tool, but we can rarely use it often enough to make a difference.

Easy fixes for MM - do these ASAP via Hotfix or roll them in to 7.1:
  • Bursting Shot: Change it to work like Sidewinders as far as targeting goes - hit the target, provided it is within range, and any other targets in the cone. Keep the range and cone the same size as now. This would allow Bursting Shot to provide range/facing feedback via the UIErrorsFrame ("Out of range" "You must be facing the target"), rather than us wasting Bursting Shot entirely because the guy right in front of me was actually 1/4 step to the right or 1yd too far back.
  • Barrage: Revert to the old animation. When Barrage was changed to have a more defined cone, the new animation made it more difficult to see where arrows will actually fire. The new Barrage cone, with the old animation, would give a clearly defined view of exactly where it will fire.
  • Piercing Shot: Make it apply and benefit from Vulnerable.
  • Trick Shot: Buff to 30% increase on single target, 50% cleave.

More involved fixes for MM - will require PTR testing:
  • Lone Wolf: Remove it as a talent. Make it a baseline passive: You deal an additional 10-15% (balanced around being a playstyle choice rather than a damage boost) damage when you do not have a pet. Replace with Exotic Munitions or a new talent.
  • Explosive Shot: Remove the current "skillshot" mechanic. New version: 50 Focus, Instant, 4 second CD. Deals X Fire damage over 3 seconds to the primary target, and X/3 damage instantly to other targets within 8 yards. Benefits from Vulnerable and Lock and Load. Replaces Aimed Shot.
  • Sentinel: Provide 2 stacks of Hunter's Mark. This (in conjunction with announced 7.1 Vulnerable changes) allows the Hunter to instantly swap targets with no ramp time, while still providing RNG protection against a single target.
  • Sidewinders: Change Sidewinders to modify, rather than replace, Arcane Shot and Multi-Shot. 2 shared charges, still 12 second recharge, same Focus generation. Arcane would be preferred in single target (and when you need to avoid cleave), while Multi would be preferred for AoE.
Quoting myself for visibility.

By the way, I (and hundreds of other Hunters) posted nearly identical feedback on the beta forums, weeks before launch in my case (months before in many other cases). I also posted this same feedback on the 7.0 prepatch PTR, as well as live forums during prepatch. From me alone, this feedback has been out there for a total of at least 3 months (combined across all sources) prior to Legion launch on 8/30.

Your move, Blizzard.
Interesting. Thank you, Watcher (and Ornyx). I'll admit I fell off the feedback boat after alpha relatively quickly when it became evident hunters were going in as they were. Unfortunately it'll probably remain that way for me for now, as both the power creep and letdown of the Emerald Nightmare drained the rest of my energy towards the game. But it will be interesting to see how you handle this - especially since it seems the whole team bit off more than expected for Legion classes. There is a lot of good feedback in this thread.
Well, at least you guys admitted you made one mistake. So, how about fixing that? And aaaaalllll the others? Hm? I can't say anything that hasn't been said a thousand times over. Mend pet, camo, traps, cheetah, pet abilities...the usual litany. The fact that I don't even know what I'm playing any more but it's certainly not the character/class that I've played since WotLK. I want my hunters back. I'll just keep hoping that eventually you'll actually listen instead of just trying to pacify us by saying that you are listening. Actions. Speak. LOUDER.
10/18/2016 12:16 AMPosted by Watcher
Hi.

If it seems like there's a lot of "listening to feedback," and not much in the way of answers or concrete plans, it's because we haven't yet formulated those answers, not because there won't be any or because we don't care to.

Overall, the 7.0 patch and the Legion expansion probably saw more total change to class mechanics than any other single update in the game's history. And hunters were among the most affected. That sort of revamp represents the beginning of a cycle of feedback and iteration, not an endpoint, and we know there's a lot of work left to do here.

In the weeks immediately following launch, the team has primarily been focused on fixing bugs and on overall spec balance. Numerical tuning isn't everything, but it can be done straightforwardly, often via hotfix, to get changes into players' hands as quickly as possible. The team's goal in this phase is for players of each spec to feel like they can succeed in the Legion endgame. But, of course, numerical viability doesn't mean much if you aren't enjoying the feel or mechanics of your class.

The next phase of iteration will focus on talent rows that seem devoid of choice, often because there is one dominant "correct" option. Through a mix of numbers balance and some redesign where needed, we'll aim to improve talent diversity, opening up new playstyles and options in the process. That is our plan for all classes, but it applies especially to hunters, where talent diversity is often sorely lacking. These types of changes require more testing time and iteration than pure DPS tuning: This is why planned changes to priests' Surrender to Madness, or paladins' Crusade, were delayed until a later patch in order to allow for more thorough evaluation.

Finally, we'll move on to evaluating base class and spec toolkits. Those types of changes are the riskiest to make, especially in the middle of an expansion, because they affect the core experience of every player of a given spec. But we don't plan on waiting an entire expansion to address concerns like the ones that have been raised in this thread. All sorts of potential changes are on the table. For example, in retrospect, while a focus on traps strengthened Survival spec identity, taking so many traps away from Marks/BM entirely was harmful to hunter class identity. But changes like those can only happen in a full patch, and will benefit from a lengthy PTR cycle.

PS: Yes, I realize that hunters don't have an ability called Deterrence anymore, and I should have said Turtle instead. Force of habit - I also still called Hand of Protection "BoP" for years (though now it actually is BoP again...). Sorry.


I'm sorry, but this is just such a pile of mule muffins. I'm a retired IT director and project manager. I can accept the first few weeks of bug fixes and that you choose to correct through patch releases. But when the best you can offer hunters in 7.1 is to nerf us given all the data and feedback you've had since alpha, your words seem pretty darn hollow. You've known the problems and chosen to just shine us on. Any project director worth his salt would have substantively provided solutions to his subscribers before Legion dropped, rather than limited lip service we've received.

I've played a Hunter since back in vanilla and had a lot of fun over the years. That all ended with pre-patch, Legion and a dysfunctional hunter class. If 7.1 is the best tangible evidence you can provide of you will address hunter issues, then it's time to hang up my bow and move on.
So, one big problem i seem to have with Beast Mastery at the moment is the incredibly LOW percentage of Wild Call. With Dire Beast being such an important ability, (regens focus, does dmg, increases Titan's Thunder) 20% of an AUTO attack crit is offensively low.

To give you an example:

On Mythic Nythendra on 10/18, i had 32% crit(which is more than i should but im still working on gear) the fight was 5min 4 sec long. I had 113 auto attacks(the other hunters also had similar), 33% of those were crits, so lets say that's 38 crits of auto attacks, and within those 38 crits, we have 20% CHANCE to proc Wild Call. so that's what, maybe 7 procs?

So, just think of that, in a 5min MYTHIC fight, on base % i would get 7 procs of Dire Beast. all of which most likely wouldn't be at the same time. so, on avg i have 2 pets active, in order to get the most out of Titan's Thunder, i will most of the time only be jolting 2 pets, which is less than 300k each min!

If we could have a higher % of Wild Call chances OR just make it a BASE %, and not a chance, it would proc so much better.

It's so insulting how low we are on the totem pole, i can't even get into our progression JUST because i am Beast Mastery.

Something has to be done about this damage and % chances.

I do not pay to play this game to be forced to play one spec for raiding. I LOVE Beast Mastery and do not mind the new BM, we just need more damage or adjusted stats. I don't think i can handle being forced into MM again like HFC.
I think I understand why blues don't post here.

When Watcher did, the thread was swarmed with people. Not just Hunters, either, which are pertinent to the discussion, but others complaining about their classes too.

Showing their face is asking to get mob rushed. Good job or not, I can certainly understand.
I really hope this changes can come as soon as possible, specially changes to gameplay and abilities.

As much as I would like some love on my BM performance having more enjoyable and varied options for both MM and BM would be great.
10/20/2016 06:55 PMPosted by Skÿè
On Mythic Nythendra on 10/18, i had 32% crit(which is more than i should but im still working on gear) the fight was 5min 4 sec long. I had 113 auto attacks(the other hunters also had similar), 33% of those were crits, so lets say that's 38 crits of auto attacks, and within those 38 crits, we have 20% CHANCE to proc Wild Call. so that's what, maybe 7 procs?
If you're wondering, your chance to proc Wild Call with your current crit works out to 6.4%, or 7.232 procs out of 113 auto shots. Aren't fractions of fractions great? /s
well I hated Ghostcrawler with a passion, but right about now I'm starting to think the guy wasn't so bad. The current Dev comparatively appears to have Phineas Gage levels of brain damage.

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