Constructive Ele Shaman Feedback

Shaman
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EDIT: Repositioning and compiling at the top of this post for ease of access for any blues out there if they are reading.
Want to clarify, this is not a list of "Do all this or we suck." It's a variety of suggestions or angles from which to attack the problem.

Summary of Pain Points for possible tweaks from original post and replied suggestions.

  • Lightning Bolt damage is extremely underwhelming and our sustained dps suffers in turn.
    • Buff Lightning Bolt damage by 15%, lava burst by 15% and chain lightning by 10%. Nerf our Fire Elemental by the same amount to move the damage from Fire Elemental into our normal rotational abilities.
  • Earth Shock damage feels unrewarding for something that took so long to produce.
  • Stormkeeper feels unrewarding, it does no damage on original cast and the 200% buff doesn't feel very powerful when Lightning Bolt hits for so little.
    • Make Stormkeeper do one of 2 things
      • Deal significant damage on use
      • Make the next 3 CL/LB casts either instant or 50% faster

    • Take Stormkeeper off the GCD, currently it is one of the few artifact abilities that costs a gcd and does not do any damage.

  • Earthquake Totem needs to apply damage sooner, and if no path avail. can't be fixed, revert to off-totem Earthquake.
    • Please make EQ do 75% of its damage in the first 3 or 4 seconds.

  • Lava Burst in PvP is in a bad spot, would prefer nerf to control of lava and buff to base LvB dmg in the pvp template.
  • Melee largely dominate ele in pvp, increase to armor is possible fix.
    • An increase to our armor outside of PvP would help significantly with questing survivability as well

  • Path of Flame does not function well enough to be used.
    • Have Lava Burst hits spread flameshock to all targets in range.
    • Flameshock currently does not spread to in combat but un-hit targets, this needs to be fixed.

  • Make Power of the Maelstrom affect Chain Lightning.
  • Buff Mastery. The class is designed around mastery, maelstrom generation is designed around Mastery. Yet Mastery is our weakest stat by far and we are not stacking it.
    • Increase maelstrom generation. If you don't want to buff mastery, buff maelstrom generation as it currently takes at least 6 casts to fill a maelstrom bar.

  • Buff Volcanic Inferno's range to 6 yards.
    • An increase to the damage wouldn't hurt either.

  • Lower the damage and increase the proc rate of Static Overload.
  • Fix the Lightning Elemental from Fury of the Stormlord as it's lightning bolt hits very hard, but the chain lightning it casts hits like a wet noodle.
  • Make Flame Shock generate Maelstrom every tick to smooth out generation.
  • Similar to the warlock change, allow our Maelstrom to default at 20 so we dont have that awkward start of the fight where we have to either refresh FS mid burst or delay burst to get a real FS out.
  • Storm Elemental is still largely useless, it doesn't need more mael gen for cast, it needs more damage on casts.
  • Icefury is janky with a cast time as a movement ability, instant or cast while moving could alleviate.
    • Mastery interaction for scaling.
  • Elemental Blast new function to allow scaling.
    • Replaces Earthshock as main spender with damage scaling.
    • Some way to allow the buff to scale with a stat or maelstrom.


Here starts my original post.

I want to preface this by saying I understand and see the volatility and disappointment within the Ele community and in some cases, when frustrated, have contributed to that negativity. While sometimes enough of that sort of behavior eventually triggers a reaction from the dev team, more often than not it causes more confusion and difficulty between us and them. It is for this reason that I am going to attempt to do in this post, what Ion requested in the QA today, and highlight pain points within the spec.

First I'd like to start with what you guys got right in the updating of the spec as it is pretty much the same with minor changes which cause significant ripples through the spec.

Shocks no longer sharing a CD with each other as well as duration and damage scaling with maelstrom.

-This change fixed a significant issue that Ele has faced for some time and as turned us from potentially one of the worst 3 target switchers in the game to one of the best, being able to swap to a target and instantly get damage rolling. A significant performance headache and QoL improvement.

Talent performance within tiers.

-Aside from some outliers ie. Primal Elementalist, which is currently a significant portion of our damage and if not taken and used properly leaves the Elemental shaman an after thought in damage application on a boss encounter; the choices of talents which to use is almost unmatched in it's depth and breadth, allowing those who have researched and tested, to adapt to encounters with almost every tool in their toolbox. (This is not to say that talent balance is perfect, it's not, and many of these "choices" will result in average damage reductions over the course of a fight, you trade that for an enormous increase in ability to perform a specific niche task which your raid or dungeon group requires of you.)

Before I move on to pain points in the spec currently, I'd like to briefly address some of the reasons many elemental shamans are seeing significantly poor performance. They simply haven't or can't be bothered to do any extra research in to the class or to examine math done by the likes of Starsha, Binkenstein, or Bloodmallet, all excellent sources of Elemental shaman theorycrafting and go on doing what they assume is best for the class and then retreat behind a wall of tuning excuses when the tank hands them their rump on a plate in damage.

The fact is, it's not entirely their fault either. The stat priority for example, one of the most asked questions on the Shaman discord in the Elemental channel, is not as straight forward as it seems. Most people picking the spec up see things such as the spell duplication mastery as well as Lava Burst always critting and make the not so crazy leap that crit is bad 'cause it's guaranteed on our hardest hitting rotational builder and that mastery and haste are the way to go. In actual fact, due to our 250% crit damage, the way Elemental Focus benefits our damage, along with how large a part of our damage Earth Shock and Flame Elemental are, of which the latter 2 are not even affected by mastery, crit ends up being the most valuable stat.

I implore any shamans reading this who are not already doing so, to adjust your gear to a priority of Int>Crit>Haste~=Vers>>>Mastery and you will have much greater success, obviously you're still no fire mage, but you can compete through good play.

Pretty much all the Ele shaman theorycrafting is currently being done and shared through the Earthshrine Discord Server, if you wish to participate / improve / or simply keep up to date with the ever shifting nature of the class as the game evolves it can be reach via this link

https://discord.me/earthshrine

Now I'll move on to pain points within the spec as I see them.

Rotational Spell Tuning
-Without trying to use hyperbole, the damage output of lightning bolt is simply less than excellent. Outside of Stormkeeper (which i personally enjoy but also has it's own bag of problems in the community at large) lightning bolt is hitting much too weak, and as a builder spell I understand that the spell is meant to perform the task of building maelstrom toward an Earth Shock, which I'll address in the next section, but if it could receive a slight buff, it would improve the spell so much, as well as the sustain output of Ascendance spec and burst profile Lightning Rod Spec (the two favored talent builds). Obviously lava burst would need a small bump as well to keep ascendance competitive.
-Chain Lightning, I believe to be in a good spot where it is, if Lightning bolt received a small bump and CL did not it wouldn't break the current multi target rotation too much if at all and would stop the dilemma of, my chain lightning hits harder on single target than lightning bolt but I get less maelstrom, which relic traits are causing.

Maelstrom Spender Tuning
-Earthshock hits fairly hard, obviously nothing like the middle of beta but still pretty hard. That said, you're essentially spending this resource you took 7-10 globals to build up, for a underwhelming hit unless it crits (a call back to one reason why crit is actually our best stat). I'm not going to pretend I know how to fix this mathematically but it isn't rewarding in either damage output or "the feel" of the rotation to have all this build up not crit and suddenly peter out for about 50k more damage than a LvB.
-Earthquake Totem is just simply put, a mess from a damage standpoint. If you can ever find an available path to put the thing down, chances are mobs are already dead in normal mythics or heroics. In mythic+'s when mobs start to live 20-30 sec a pack and you can lay down 3-4 at a time with around 6-8 total in a fight depending on Static Overload procs it starts to do ok damage, but that's a significant time profile required to make the spell useful from a damage perspective, and in raids i can't remember the last time an add spawn lasted longer than 5 sec before being vaporized. As it stands this spell is useful only for mythic+ content at about 5 or higher, and even then, mostly for the survivability of the tank due to knockdowns. The most useful fix I have seen suggested for this is to frontload the damage in to the first tick, like an actual earthquake and the ticks after are just aftershocks there to provide proc chance on the knockdown and small damage hits.

Mechanical Concerns
-Stormkeeper is the first to jump to mind, as the spell does no damage but still uses a global CD. The devs did finally remove the cast time, thanks btw, but it's still very jarring to have to press this button every minute that applies no damage and sets you on the GCD.

All in all, my opinion of the spec is, that we are in an alright place, we are viable, not strong, but by no means dumpster worthy if played and itemized correctly. In my opinion we need a overall 5-10% dps gain over what we output now, like I said before, however that is done mathematically I won't pretend to know. Along with some fixes on how spells like earthquake actually function the spec would be very enjoyable and usable moving forward.

Thanks for reading whoever was brave enough not to TLDR it, and feel free to accost my insights or add additional feedback as you wish, let's just keep it civil.

Have great one.
edit-I'm an !@#- wouldn't let me delete.
Thank you for this post, and for your work in the Shammy discord.
09/09/2016 03:33 PMPosted by Diamondtíara
I'm down voting every new "ele sucks" thread. Yes, yes. Your title is "constructive feedback." It's still an "ele needs buffs" thread. Why didn't you post on one of the hundred other threads on same topic? Sheesh.

I didn't read the entire post because people are whiny babies. The one thing I noticed was you talking about stormkeeper needing to come off the GCD. I 100% agree with this. Maybe an AOE buff of some sort. I think our single target is pretty damn good.


Post seems pretty legit to me, you should read it.
09/09/2016 03:33 PMPosted by Diamondtíara
I'm down voting every new "ele sucks" thread. Yes, yes. Your title is "constructive feedback." It's still an "ele needs buffs" thread. Why didn't you post on one of the hundred other threads on same topic? Sheesh.

I didn't read the entire post because people are whiny babies. The one thing I noticed was you talking about stormkeeper needing to come off the GCD. I 100% agree with this. Maybe an AOE buff of some sort. I think our single target is pretty damn good.


At least this is real feedback instead of the typical "ele sucks" with no depth, devs can take this and make something out of it. My only real suggestion is to make it a little less wordy. A lot of the information is not necessary and just makes it less likely to get noticed. Blizzard have said before that they prefer clear concise/bullet point kind of feedback, something like:

1: Lightning Bolt damage is extremely underwhelming and our sustained dps suffers in turn.

2: Earth Shock damage feels unrewarding for something that took so long to produce.

3: Stormkeeper feels unrewarding, it does no damage on original cast and the 200% buff doesn't feel very powerful when Lightning Bolt hits for so little

Something along those lines^^ the rest of the info is good and insightful but make sure you at least have a summary at the end for anyone not looking to read super deep into it, or a blizzard employee who just wants a quick and concise list of problems to pass on to a dev.
09/09/2016 03:52 PMPosted by Sham
09/09/2016 03:33 PMPosted by Diamondtíara
I'm down voting every new "ele sucks" thread. Yes, yes. Your title is "constructive feedback." It's still an "ele needs buffs" thread. Why didn't you post on one of the hundred other threads on same topic? Sheesh.

I didn't read the entire post because people are whiny babies. The one thing I noticed was you talking about stormkeeper needing to come off the GCD. I 100% agree with this. Maybe an AOE buff of some sort. I think our single target is pretty damn good.


At least this is real feedback instead of the typical "ele sucks" with no depth, devs can take this and make something out of it. My only real suggestion is to make it a little less wordy. A lot of the information is not necessary and just makes it less likely to get noticed. Blizzard have said before that they prefer clear concise/bullet point kind of feedback, something like:

1: Lightning Bolt damage is extremely underwhelming and our sustained dps suffers in turn.

2: Earth Shock damage feels unrewarding for something that took so long to produce.

3: Stormkeeper feels unrewarding, it does no damage on original cast and the 200% buff doesn't feel very powerful when Lightning Bolt hits for so little

Something along those lines^^ the rest of the info is good and insightful but make sure you at least have a summary at the end for anyone not looking to read super deep into it, or a blizzard employee who just wants a quick and concise list of problems to pass on to a dev.


Thx for that, I'll edit the post with a concise summary at the end, cheers!
That said, Earth Shock scales linearly with maelstrom and thus has been calculated to hit harder than lightning bolt and 86 maelstrom and harder than lava burst at 92 maelstrom


See, I don't mind most of this post but I have to roast you over an open flame for this one. I'm going to do this math without crit/mastery rates/artifact traits, as it's easier to explain that way. A regular Lightning Bolt is 130% (~154% with artifact traits) SP as damage, and a regular Lava Burst is 525% (~586% with artifact traits) SP as damage. Earth Shock starts at 80% (~90% with artifact traits) SP as damage at 10 MP and scales up to 800% (896% with artifact traits) at 100 MP.

With those #s in mind, Earth Shock damage itself surpasses Lightning Bolt at 15 (18 with artifact traits) MP & surpasses Lava Burst at 66 (same with artifact traits) MP. This gets a bit different with Mastery, but you get the idea.

What you're thinking of is when it's best to use Earth Shock instead of those spells, and I'm not sure where you got those #s. The idea is not to waste MP, and not to use more earth shocks than necessary as that decreases overall lightning bolt damage for no gain elsewhere in the long run. As such, you'd ideally look to use Earth Shock over Lava Burst at ~88 and over Lightning Bolt at ~92 (hence the 92 listed in Bink's wowhead guide.)
09/09/2016 03:58 PMPosted by Gistwiki
That said, Earth Shock scales linearly with maelstrom and thus has been calculated to hit harder than lightning bolt and 86 maelstrom and harder than lava burst at 92 maelstrom


See, I don't mind most of this post but I have to roast you over an open flame for this one. I'm going to do this math without crit rates/artifact traits, as it's easier to explain that way. A regular Lightning Bolt is 130% SP as damage, and a regular Lava Burst is 525% SP as damage. Earth Shock starts at 80% SP as damage at 10 MP and scales up to 800% at 100 MP.

With those #s in mind, Earth Shock damage itself surpasses Lightning Bolt at 15 MP & surpasses Lava Burst at 66 MP.

What you're thinking of is when it's best to use Earth Shock instead of those spells, and I'm not sure where you got those #s. The idea is not to waste MP, and not to use more earth shocks than necessary as that decreases overall lightning bolt damage for no gain elsewhere in the long run. As such, you'd ideally look to use Earth Shock over Lava Burst at ~88 and over Lightning Bolt at ~92 (hence the 92 listed in Bink's wowhead guide.)


Thx Gist, will edit my monstrosity to be more accurate.
Sorry OP. Actually a pretty damn good post, but as I !@#$%ed about before, devs aren't going to look at 300 different "ele is underbalanced" threads.

You make some really good points.

Earth shock - I completely agree. Should hit harder.

Lightning bolt - Have people actually tested lightning rod? From my personal testing LR is outperforming ascendance. Maybe my testing parameters are favoring LR, not really sure. Let's say LR is "technically" considered inferior. I'm not a fan of ascendance anyway. Having such a large chunk of your DPS in 8% of the fight kinda worries me because what if you have to avoid mechanics and miss 2 casts? LR is more consistent damage, and in cleave situations it easily outperforms ascendance. Do you think going LR changes our stat priority? I think haste might actually gain value since it would increase LR uptime.

Stormkeeper - I think everyone agrees this needs to be off the GCD.

All in all very nice post. I'm sorry I was a douche bag in my first response. I've just been responding that way because I see 50 new "ele sucks" threads pop up every day, yet from my personal experiences I'm seeing ele as being in a decent place. Single target I'm keeping up on nearly every fight, unless there's heavy movement. In AOE situations we usually get crushed by melee cleave, but I'm actually okay with that. We can't have everything. In situations with adds that spawn away from boss and that live a while our DPS is solid as well.
I agree with pretty much all of this. However, Earthquake to me is fine as a steady damage ability, rather than frontloading at which point it becomes a flavored Flamestrike.

To the effect of improving our strengths, I would love to see any changes made to be focused on Mastery, be it allowing a wider coverage of spells affected (FS for a second, smaller DoT, ES, EQ even), allowing for recursive procs similar to old Windfury effects, or some combination therein (possibly even as talent options).
09/09/2016 04:05 PMPosted by Diamondtíara

Lightning bolt - Have people actually tested lightning rod? From my personal testing LR is outperforming ascendance. Maybe my testing parameters are favoring LR, not really sure. Let's say LR is "technically" considered inferior. I'm not a fan of ascendance anyway. Having such a large chunk of your DPS in 8% of the fight kinda worries me because what if you have to avoid mechanics and miss 2 casts? LR is more consistent damage, and in cleave situations it easily outperforms ascendance. Do you think going LR changes our stat priority? I think haste might actually gain value since it would increase LR uptime.


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe LR surpasses Asc when the fight goes over 2 minutes. There's actually quite a few of us in the Shaman discord who prefer running LR not only because it has better sustained damage on longer fights, but because it's better on AoE if you're switching between targets to try and maintain multiple LR.

As for talents, I think there's a number of talents which could be bumped up to be brought in line with the more popular talents for dungeon/raid scenarios.

For tier 15, I exclusively ever see Totem Mastery being used; while Path of Flame and Earthen Rage are more used for leveling/questing for less maintenance with the totems.

Tier 60, you never see Elemental Blast in any sort of conversation about which is best for that tier; now that could have something to do with our stat weights, but either way it's disappointing for such a nice looking spell, and something that could possibly spice up the rotation a bit.

Tier 75 is pretty much completely dominated by Primal Elementalist, as was mentioned in the original post. Elemental Fusion is another talent which I never see talk of except when leveling/questing. Icefury could potentially be great on heavy movement fights like Wrath of Azshara, but even then I feel like it's only because Elemental lacks anything of note to be cast while moving (which is something I wish would be remedied).

Tier 90 is another tier where I feel only one talent, Elemental Mastery, is ever the correct option. The other two talents simply don't compete.

Tier 100 is nicely even between Ascendance and Lightning Rod; it's a question of whether a player prefers burst or sustained damage/better cleave. Liquid Magma Totem is the only talent I never see taken, however I'm not sure if that's because as a talent heavily biased towards AoE it's too niche, or because the damage is too low.

As for particular spells, I wholeheartedly agree with SK being taken off the GCD. Outside of using it before the pull (in a LR build), it just feels a bit awkward wasting a GCD on it, when you might not even benefit right away if a Lava Surge proc happens, or you suddenly hit 90-100 maelstrom.

I also wouldn't mind seeing Earthquake made castable while casting. Due to the RNG nature of Chain Lightning, Static Overload, and Elemental Overload; it's a guessing game as to whether or not you will have enough maelstrom to drop an Earthquake during AoE encounters. Because you don't always know, you end up casting another Chain Lightning right away and then dropping Earthquake(s) after that. In the worst situations, you'll have SO and/or EO proc, putting you either at 100 maelstrom, or close enough that you're going to go over from your current CL cast, even if you were below 50 maelstrom prior originally. I would love to actually be able to drop my EQ during these CL casts so that I'm not wasting maelstrom due to the RNG nature of our procs.

Finally, I would definitely love to see some tweaks made to our artifact golden dragons. Making Power of the Maelstrom also affect Chain Lightning would be wonderful in cleave situations where we'll never cast a Lightning Bolt [over a Chain Lightning] and end up wasting the proc. The AoE range on Volcanic Inferno is pretty small, and I'd like to see it bumped from 3 yards up to 6 for a more "standardish" AoE size.
Dont forget that Lava Burst damage in PVP needs to get a buff urgently
09/09/2016 04:23 PMPosted by Gruber
To the effect of improving our strengths, I would love to see any changes made to be focused on Mastery, be it allowing a wider coverage of spells affected (FS for a second, smaller DoT, ES, EQ even), allowing for recursive procs similar to old Windfury effects, or some combination therein (possibly even as talent options).


I honestly think that shocks should be affected by Mastery, but not on direct additional damage. Maybe MS returns, or maybe simply buffing the overload damage and extra generation of the already existing affected spells could do wonders.

But I certainly do NOT think that ES should be able to overload. It could only make the RNG nuke being more of an RNG nuke.
09/09/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Saesra
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe LR surpasses Asc when the fight goes over 2 minutes. There's actually quite a few of us in the Shaman discord who prefer running LR not only because it has better sustained damage on longer fights, but because it's better on AoE if you're switching between targets to try and maintain multiple LR.


Ascendance remains ahead for pure single target, LR is much better for any cleave or aoe.

09/09/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Saesra
For tier 15, I exclusively ever see Totem Mastery being used; while Path of Flame and Earthen Rage are more used for leveling/questing for less maintenance with the totems.

Totem Mastery and Earthen Rage are actually very close, Earthen Rage pulls ahead during movement so both are 100% viable options. Path of Flame is just too specific/glitchy to be considered.

09/09/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Saesra
Tier 60, you never see Elemental Blast in any sort of conversation about which is best for that tier; now that could have something to do with our stat weights, but either way it's disappointing for such a nice looking spell, and something that could possibly spice up the rotation a bit.

Honestly I think Elemental Blast may pull ahead if we get the ring legendary since it procs all 3 buffs, unsure on that though.

09/09/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Saesra
Tier 90 is another tier where I feel only one talent, Elemental Mastery, is ever the correct option. The other two talents simply don't compete.

Aftershock is actually best for heavy AoE, and could see a potential single target gain if Ascendance falls behind.

09/09/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Saesra
Tier 100 is nicely even between Ascendance and Lightning Rod; it's a question of whether a player prefers burst or sustained damage/better cleave. Liquid Magma Totem is the only talent I never see taken, however I'm not sure if that's because as a talent heavily biased towards AoE it's too niche, or because the damage is too low.

As it stands all 3 talents have their place and perform very well for their intended purpose, Ascendance single target, LR for cleave or constant AoE, LMT for periodic or mass AoE.

All in all your concerns are valid but I personally think the talents are more competitive with one another than they have been in a very long time.

09/09/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Saesra
Making Power of the Maelstrom also affect Chain Lightning

This would be amazing, I 2nd this.
09/09/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Saesra

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe LR surpasses Asc when the fight goes over 2 minutes. There's actually quite a few of us in the Shaman discord who prefer running LR not only because it has better sustained damage on longer fights, but because it's better on AoE if you're switching between targets to try and maintain multiple LR.

My personal tests showed the same. The initial burst from ascendance kept higher overall dps for about 90-120 seconds, at which point the consistently higher dmg of LR took over.

I'm a bit baffled by the lack of LR in any of the guides though. I've seen guides here, icy-veins, mmo-champ, and wowhead. None of them include LR.

How are you prioritizing stats in an LR build? I think haste gains more value, but not sure if it surpasses crit. What about trinkets?

09/09/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Saesra
Tier 60, you never see Elemental Blast in any sort of conversation about which is best for that tier; now that could have something to do with our stat weights, but either way it's disappointing for such a nice looking spell, and something that could possibly spice up the rotation a bit.

I've been so focused on comparing ascendance to LR I haven't really tested ele blast much. Will need to do some testing next week.

09/09/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Saesra
Tier 75 is pretty much completely dominated by Primal Elementalist, as was mentioned in the original post. Elemental Fusion is another talent which I never see talk of except when leveling/questing. Icefury could potentially be great on heavy movement fights like Wrath of Azshara, but even then I feel like it's only because Elemental lacks anything of note to be cast while moving (which is something I wish would be remedied).

I think part of the problem with fusion's mechanics is that it almost necessitates echoes being used with it so you don't waste the proc. I think something that could possibly make it a real talent choice is to also add to the talent "flame shock's base duration is the equivalent of cast at 20 maelstrom." Maybe that's too much, but just throwing something out there. I'd love to have that quality of life improvement.

09/09/2016 04:29 PMPosted by Saesra
Finally, I would definitely love to see some tweaks made to our artifact golden dragons. Making Power of the Maelstrom also affect Chain Lightning would be wonderful in cleave situations where we'll never cast a Lightning Bolt [over a Chain Lightning] and end up wasting the proc. The AoE range on Volcanic Inferno is pretty small, and I'd like to see it bumped from 3 yards up to 6 for a more "standardish" AoE size.

Adding chain lightning into power of the maelstrom would certainly bump up our mastery some, and maybe bring our golden traits more in line with other class' golden traits.

Ascendance remains ahead for pure single target, LR is much better for any cleave or aoe.

If I didn't do my own testing, I would have believed this from all the guides/forums I've read. Even in single target, LR was outperforming ascendance for me while doing some dummy testing. I know, dummy testing isn't accurate, but neither are sims. If you really think about it, isn't it kinda odd to think a cooldown that affects 8% of our dps time is really hands down the best? LR has pretty good uptime, and I know lightning bolt hits like a wet noodle, but the 30% adds up.
09/09/2016 04:56 PMPosted by Diamondtíara
If I didn't do my own testing, I would have believed this from all the guides/forums I've read. Even in single target, LR was outperforming ascendance for me while doing some dummy testing. I know, dummy testing isn't accurate, but neither are sims. If you really think about it, isn't it kinda odd to think a cooldown that affects 8% of our dps time is really hands down the best? LR has pretty good uptime, and I know lightning bolt hits like a wet noodle, but the 30% adds up.


I've done in game testing along with sims and I'm fairly confident Ascendance is still better by about 4% overall even on 5+ minute kill times. LR MIGHT be better if you prioritize haste and have 100% uptime (which is pretty uncommon in raids) but otherwise Ascendance is still king.
Thanks OP, well written.

Only additional thing I would like to see is a buff to our Armor.
Melee destroys us in PvP.
DH have baseline 20%~ damage reduction and we have 29%~ damage reduction and we wear Mail AND have a Shield.
09/09/2016 05:09 PMPosted by Sham
09/09/2016 04:56 PMPosted by Diamondtíara
If I didn't do my own testing, I would have believed this from all the guides/forums I've read. Even in single target, LR was outperforming ascendance for me while doing some dummy testing. I know, dummy testing isn't accurate, but neither are sims. If you really think about it, isn't it kinda odd to think a cooldown that affects 8% of our dps time is really hands down the best? LR has pretty good uptime, and I know lightning bolt hits like a wet noodle, but the 30% adds up.


I've done in game testing along with sims and I'm fairly confident Ascendance is still better by about 4% overall even on 5+ minute kill times. LR MIGHT be better if you prioritize haste and have 100% uptime (which is pretty uncommon in raids) but otherwise Ascendance is still king.


As of now LR and ASC are interchangeable in pure ST. The difference is less than 1%. But dummies and patchwerk sims aren't super great indicators of performance. In the end need to change based on fight length and movement. Outside of pure ST LR tends to get an upper hand unless you need the burst from ASC on a prio target or your groups burst on AoE is high enough you can't really help then it's back to even. It's a wonderous time where all 3 level 100 talents are viable in their niche situation.
09/09/2016 05:09 PMPosted by Sham
09/09/2016 04:56 PMPosted by Diamondtíara
If I didn't do my own testing, I would have believed this from all the guides/forums I've read. Even in single target, LR was outperforming ascendance for me while doing some dummy testing. I know, dummy testing isn't accurate, but neither are sims. If you really think about it, isn't it kinda odd to think a cooldown that affects 8% of our dps time is really hands down the best? LR has pretty good uptime, and I know lightning bolt hits like a wet noodle, but the 30% adds up.


I've done in game testing along with sims and I'm fairly confident Ascendance is still better by about 4% overall even on 5+ minute kill times. LR MIGHT be better if you prioritize haste and have 100% uptime (which is pretty uncommon in raids) but otherwise Ascendance is still king.

Doesn't patchwerk actually favor ascendance over LR? The entire premises of ascendance outperforming LR is that you can stand still for the entire 15 seconds and turret cast. How many fights are you about to turret cast for those first 15 seconds without moving?

If you're saying ascendance is 4% better, then that means it's about 1-2 missed lava bursts away from being equal or worse. I'm not sure how the raid mechanics work in the upcoming raids, but just from heroics/mythics there's many times you're swapping to adds or having to move due to mechanics. Maybe it's just me, but when a huge portion of my dps is in a mere 8% window I feel VERY frustrated losing part of that damage due to fight mechanics.

Another point against ascendance is its lack of flexibility.

What if heroism isn't used while ascendance is up? Such as being used during a burn period of fight.

Ascendance doesn't increase our cleave/aoe damage. Well, technically it does, but who actually wants to use ascendance for lava beam aoe?

Maybe it just comes down to preference. I see a lot of people saying LR is competitive with LR, which is awesome. I'd take a slight single target DPS loss to have greatly improved flexibility/cleave/aoe.

What about for the other talent choices? There's a wowhead guide saying echoes can be competitive with elemental mastery. I really like being able to hold onto that extra lava burst charge, but that said, I think echoes would hurt my DPS if I'm going LR since it ends up being less lightning bolt casts.

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