Retribution - Problems & Solutions Compendium

Paladin
Tried posting this earlier; for some reason it didn't. My apologies if it shows up as a double post later.

While I doubt it'll really accomplish anything, what I intend to do is provide, in a concise, summarised, and easy-to-read manner, all the grievances people have towards ret and constructive feedback as to why people have those grievances. Furthermore, also included will be suggested solutions.

This is written bearing in mind the 7.1 PTR notes and will be updated as notes continue to evolve.

If anything is missed in the original post, or information provided is wrong, or whatever other reason, correct me.

Issue 1: Talents
I'm starting with this because I see it as the overarching issue that all other issues with the spec stem from. Retribution's talents are limiting in their design, and taking talents pushes the spec in one direction while gimping it in another. I refer, of course, to the level 15, 30 and 60 trees most specifically, and how the choices are based on situation - AoE or single target?
Contrast this to the talent tree of the Havoc Demon Hunter, or even the Enhancement Shaman - in their trees, talents dictate the playstyle of the spec rather than simply being 'this is for AoE, this is for ST, this is for cleave'. Taking one of these talents pigeonholes us into one situation, which come raiding will likely result in far higher consumption of respec tomes - good for scribes, not so good for us.
Solution: Really, what's required here is at least a minor rework of the talent trees. I shan't go into much detail in this section, because it is better served to tie in a talent tree rework with discussing other aspects. Speaking of which...

Issue 2: Lack of speciality
Currently, ret is middle of the pack on single target, and below average for AoE. Which really begs the question - why would you bring a ret? There is no specific niche the spec provides. It's outclassed on burst dps by Havoc, sustained AoE by most classes, and single target by enhancement, fire, etc. As enunciated by another poster, ret should either have strong single target and moderate AoE, or strong AoE and moderate single target. This would give it a niche and make it much more attractive a prospect to bring to dungeons, especially Mythic+.
Solution: Give ret a speciality through buffs aimed at one specific aspect of encounter. My preference would be sustained cleave, but more experienced players may disagree. To tie back into Issue 1, perhaps make Zeal baseline (and make it benefit from TFoJ) and in its place on the level 30 talents put in a non-competing talent, perhaps something along the lines of:
Wrath of the Crusader: Critical hits with Crusader Strike reduce the cooldown of Avenging Wrath/Crusade by X seconds.

Issue 3: Utility
Or, more specifically, the lack thereof.
Ret's utility seems solely tied to Greater Blessings and gimmicky or highly situational effects like Lay on Hands or Hand of Protection (both of which, I'll note, are provided by Holy and Protection as well). In a PvE setting, Hand of Hindrance is rarely of use. The overarching issue with Greater Blessings is Might, and the fact that it's taken into account for our damage tuning. So basically, we'll never use Wisdom or Kings, which is a shame, because they are powerful utility tools.
Solution: Completely rework Might, buffing our damage to compensate. An effect that reduces the effect of disables on the Blessed target seems situationally very powerful, but other potential effects exist.

Issue 4: AoE
While it ties closely with Issue 2, AoE warrants a point of itself.
Primarily, we have no AoE builder, meaning all our damage is in Wake of Ashes and Divine Storm, the latter of which requires 3 traits to be good, two of them golden traits.
Solution: Pretty easy, an AoE HoPo generator would help a lot. Baseline Zeal is one way, and another would be Divine Hammer as baseline, or baking it into BoJ. Replace Divine Hammer on the tree with something else, perhaps a talent giving +X% Haste so Ret has more breathing room without BiS gear.

Issue 5: Target switching
As it stands, if ret has to switch off its Judgement target for any reason, their DPS suffers greatly for it. The root cause of this is, obviously, the focus on the Judgement window.
Solution: There are numerous possibilities here.
Firstly, make Judgement a buff that applies to the paladin rather than a debuff on the target.
Secondly, make Judgement hit another target.
Thirdly, reset Judgement's cooldown if the target dies while afflicted by the debuff.

Issue 6: The 7.1 Changes
They look kind of cool, but both are broken in some way.
The rework to BoW should not replace current BoW, as both are playstyle choices - as stated in Issue 1, talent trees should be about promoting different playstyle choices.
Secondly, the Crusade is good, since I've heard that the current incarnation tends to break the game during lust. However, its ramp-up time is atrocious and crippling.
Solution:
The rework to BoW would be better served replacing Virtue's Blade, as both it and the current BoW are playstyle choices, as opposed to VB being a damage buff. Better yet, baseline Divine Hammer, and put this new effect in its place.
With Crusade, simply make it gain stacks per HoPo spent rather than on each Judgement cast.

Issue 7: Redundancies
A smaller issue, but still one that needs consideration. Justicar's Vengeance and Execution Sentence are made completely irrelevant in the standard rotation once the cloak, Whispers of the Nathrezim, and the golden trait Echo of the Highlord, due to the fact that they are not buffed by those two effects.
Solution: Make JV and ES affected by the cloak and the trait. These two talents add lots of depth to the gameplay and it's unacceptable that they are relegated to uselessness.

_________________________________________________________

Complete Layout
Were I to change ret in accordance with my perceptions of it, listed below are the possible changes to consider:
Zeal - made baseline. The Zeal effect now affects autoattacks, rather than actual casts of the ability.
Blade of Justice - BoJ will now cause the paladin's holy power generating attacks to deal 40k-ish Holy damage to enemies in front of the paladin.

Level 30 talent tree:
The Fires of Justice - unchanged.
Wrath of the Crusader (replacing the now-baseline Zeal) - critical strikes with Zeal reduce the cooldown of Avenging Wrath/Crusade by X seconds.
Greater Judgement - unchanged.

Level 60 talent tree:
Virtue's Blade - unchanged.
Blade of Wrath - unchanged.
7.1 Blade of Wrath - replaces Divine Hammer, and renamed.

________________________________________________________________

Obviously, opinions are going to differ, but outlined are what I have ascertained from my own experiences and from my forum lurking to be ret's biggest issues, and some possibly suggested solutions.

Like I said, I'll update this based on comments and feedback, so please help me in providing a condensed and informative source for the developers... if they do look at these forums.
interesting read, honestly i'd need to jump on PTR, play the changes, and then give some feedback after that.

i'd really like to see mastery mean something again, as pretty much every melee currently seems to be haste/crit > mastery > versatility. or some close variation to that.
My main complaint is our mastery. It went from something really fun, to something so...boring? All our dps is within an 8 second timeframe.

Would be better (but still suck compared to WoD mastery) if it increased the time of the judgment effect.
09/16/2016 09:33 AMPosted by Algorehowl
It went from something really fun, to something so...boring?


How was Hand of Light fun ?

09/16/2016 09:33 AMPosted by Algorehowl
if it increased the time of the judgment effect.


Haste does that already.
So the new crusade...

Profoundly empowers your Judgment for 20 sec. While empowered, Judgment generates 1 Holy Power, has a 75% reduced cooldown, and increases your damage and healing by 3%, stacking up to 15 times. Retribution Paladin - Level 100 Talent. Instant. 20 sec cooldown.

I have a feeling there's some tooltip errors...

Anyways how is it overall? Sounds interesting.
I do agree with most of your points...I really wish blizz takes a look at this...

However, I don´t think Blessing of might should be reworked, I think it should be completely removed from the game, and thrown into the abyss of those memories we must never revisit (that dark place Dark Intent was sent to).

I´d rather them reworking Blessing of kings and blessing of wisdom to be interactive pieces of gameplay such as (The next ideas were made up in a time-frame of about 3.47 seconds while doing this post, so they may be the dumbest piece of !@#$ you´ve ever read, but they are meant to show a concept of gameplay, not a baseline idea for how I´d like the abilites to work):
-Greater Blessing of might: The paladin surrounds himself with a holy aura, healing(or providing absorbs) everyone in H yards around him for X amount of healing based of the paladin´s damage for Y amount of seconds (good paladins would be greatly apreciated)

-Greater Blessing of Wisdom: Basically the same but with mana, and both of these abilities would share a LONG cooldown, kind of something that is done once per fight.

This would make this abilities not something we do before the fight starts and then we forget about it, but rather something that we do during the fight, isn´t that amazing? it´s almost as doing stuff during the fight is fun.

but yeah, the main piece of feedback Blizz should take is: Blizz, we want to do damage, it doesn´t matter how...we just want to do damage.

Also Im sorry for sneaking this in here but..BLIZZ FIX THE %^-*ING SCALING FOR FEMALE BLOOD ELVES, shields are smaller on our hands that they are on our back, and 2h weapons are smaller on our back than it is in our hands...wtf?
I'll throw this suggestion out again. Have judgement work like wake of ashes with a cone aoe. Then we can rework g.judgement. kinda sucks having to tome for trash.

Another idea i have been tossing around is have judgement increase all holy damage. (Balance of course)

Side note: our artifact talents/legendaries should increase all spender damage instead of just 2. Es,and jv fall behind. Making it into a 4 button bland rotation.
09/16/2016 09:33 AMPosted by Algorehowl
It went from something really fun, to something so...boring?


How was Hand of Light fun ?


It was no less fun than the current mastery, and it affected everything we do instead of a small portion of what we do.

09/16/2016 09:33 AMPosted by Algorehowl
if it increased the time of the judgment effect.


Haste does that already.


No, it does not. Haste reduces the CD of judgement, but it does not extend the duration of the debuff.

============================================================

Overall, I agree wholeheartedly with the OP. Well thought out changes and critiques. I was toying with the idea of making Zeal baseline myself, actually.
It was no less fun than the current mastery, and it affected everything we do instead of a small portion of what we do.


The fact the current one only affects a small portion is what makes it fun. It encourages proper rotational aptitude.

09/16/2016 04:54 PMPosted by Oramac
No, it does not. Haste reduces the CD of judgement, but it does not extend the duration of the debuff.


It extends the uptime of the debuff. To me that's the same thing as extending its duration, since the only thing that matters is how long it was active during a fight. Increased uptime = increased total duration.
09/16/2016 05:25 PMPosted by Berith
It was no less fun than the current mastery, and it affected everything we do instead of a small portion of what we do.


The fact the current one only affects a small portion is what makes it fun. It encourages proper rotational aptitude.


One could as easily say that the fact that the current mastery only affects a small portion is what makes it frustrating, and not fun.

In fact, that is what we're saying.

09/16/2016 04:54 PMPosted by Oramac
No, it does not. Haste reduces the CD of judgement, but it does not extend the duration of the debuff.


It extends the uptime of the debuff. To me that's the same thing as extending its duration, since the only thing that matters is how long it was active during a fight. Increased uptime = increased total duration.


Not quite. It helps, to be sure, but it's not quite the same.

Increased duration allows for more leeway in using the debuff, taking into account movement and such. Increased uptime has a similar effect, but is more punishing until you reach the haste levels required for permanent uptime. Also, that assumes you're staying on one target. Target swapping would also benefit greatly from increased duration.

In any case, this really isn't the point of the thread. I agree with the OP. It appears that you do not. Let's just leave it at that. Or, if you do agree with the OP, simply say so and move on.
One could as easily say that the fact that the current mastery only affects a small portion is what makes it frustrating, and not fun.

In fact, that is what we're saying.


How is it frustrating ? You're not supposed to be using Spenders outside of Judgment...

09/16/2016 06:03 PMPosted by Oramac
Not quite. It helps, to be sure, but it's not quite the same.


Because you guys are stuck with the idea that "spenders per Judgment" is a thing.

It's not. Total Spenders, with none being done outside of Judgment is the gameplay. The "I hit 3 TVs in that Judgment!" thing you guys try to go for is just ridiculous epeen. It literally doesn't matter. 8 second duration is fine. At 20% Haste, you already have 1 single GCD not covered by Judgment.

It doesn't need more duration.

09/16/2016 06:03 PMPosted by Oramac
Target swapping would also benefit greatly from increased duration.


Target swapping benefits from reduced cooldown, not increased duration. Increased duration only benefits people unable to track the debuff and thus ending up using spenders outside of it.
09/16/2016 06:08 PMPosted by Berith
One could as easily say that the fact that the current mastery only affects a small portion is what makes it frustrating, and not fun.

In fact, that is what we're saying.


How is it frustrating ? You're not supposed to be using Spenders outside of Judgment...


You just answered your own question.

I'm done arguing with you. Either provide thoughts on the OP's post, or don't. Us arguing back and forth accomplishes nothing.
09/16/2016 08:28 AMPosted by Levictor
Retribution's talents are limiting in their design, and taking talents pushes the spec in one direction while gimping it in another. I refer, of course, to the level 15, 30 and 60 trees most specifically, and how the choices are based on situation - AoE or single target?

Contrast this to the talent tree of the Havoc Demon Hunter, or even the Enhancement Shaman - in their trees, talents dictate the playstyle of the spec rather than simply being 'this is for AoE, this is for ST, this is for cleave'. Taking one of these talents pigeonholes us into one situation, which come raiding will likely result in far higher consumption of respec tomes - good for scribes, not so good for us.

I despise this design. It's so !@#$ing boring and limiting.
09/16/2016 04:04 PMPosted by Blitzkriegz
Side note: our artifact talents/legendaries should increase all spender damage instead of just 2. Es,and jv fall behind. Making it into a 4 button bland rotation.


Oh, right, of course. Completely forgot that.

Make EotH + the cloak also affect JV and ES.
Can we stop figthing for nothing and actually give feedback to the original poster and the actual subject of the thread ?

I greatly agree with all your points we just need the paladin's devs to see this thread.
Wait they are changing up Crusade? ... Why?!
09/17/2016 10:52 PMPosted by Phelios
Wait they are changing up Crusade? ... Why?!


Because the Haste scaling bit just doesn't feel right, especially during Timewarp.

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