Dear Geared Fire Mages:

Mage
09/19/2016 02:44 PMPosted by Disagreed
This thread is actually one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen posted on a class forum. Toxicity is at an all time high whenever you're basically throwing a middle finger to those of your same class.


I may be a hypocrite for posting this, but take a look at the spec of the most toxic people on this forum... It could be because 99% of mages are that spec, but if that's the case; it's a problem. I've witnessed far more advice from the "underdog" spec threads, than Fire mages asking for help with their spec. They seem to get met with the standard "git gud" or "l2p".

I'd hate to be new to that spec and actually trying to learn... but that's the way FotM'ers are; class/spec elitists... If they're able to play it well, you should be able to as well. It's likely them who are the most hostile to the other specs getting any love... They rolled this class/spec to be the best DPS class after-all.

If it was just a 2-3% difference in damage, I'm sure people's individual preference would over-ride min/maxxing, in all but the most hardcore PVE guilds. I'd be fine with this. As for why things are currently the way they are; I haven't read anyone refute my points from my earlier post yet.
Fire does the most dps

Arcane does the second most dps

and frost does the third most dps.

- Aldo the Apache

...but seriously if you are complaining that you want to do the most dps then re-roll fire atm. I've seen arcane be competitive but it's just not the highest right now.

The "The thing I want to play isn't as good as what other people want to play so fix it for me please" mentality of bnet forums is just hilarious.
09/19/2016 03:09 PMPosted by Drinkjin
09/19/2016 02:44 PMPosted by Disagreed
This thread is actually one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen posted on a class forum. Toxicity is at an all time high whenever you're basically throwing a middle finger to those of your same class.


I may be a hypocrite for posting this, but take a look at the spec of the most toxic people on this forum... It could be because 99% of mages are that spec, but if that's the case; it's a problem. I've witnessed far more advice from the "underdog" spec threads, than Fire mages asking for help with their spec. They seem to get met with the standard "git gud" or "l2p".

I'd hate to be new to that spec and actually trying to learn... but that's the way FotM'ers are; class/spec elitists... If they're able to play it well, you should be able to as well. and it's likely them who are the most hostile to the other specs getting any love... They rolled this class/spec to be the best DPS class after-all.

If it was just a 2-3% difference in damage, I'm sure people's individual preference would over-ride min/maxxing, in all but the most hardcore PVE guilds. I'd be fine with this. As for why things are currently the way they are; I haven't read anyone refute my points from my earlier post yet.


It's called jumping on the bandwagon. Ever watch/follow sports? I bet 78% of these players used to be Frost, hehe.
09/19/2016 01:47 PMPosted by Baztax

Dear Baztax,

You are a Mage, not a "frost mage" or a "arcane mage". Having only one spec be raid viable at a time is par for the course over the last ten years. Either respec, reroll, or live with playing suboptimally

Warmest Regards,
Common Sense


Actually no. With the introduction of the artifact system, I AM an arcane mage, thank you very much. With the huge investment of artifact power required once you go down one path, there really is no turning back. So your argument is invalid.

Sincerely,
More Common Sense

It's *incredibly* easy to get your second artifact up to ~2/3 of the power of your main artifact, and not too much more work to get it within striking distance of your main once you start racking up artifact knowledge

The only excuse to not have two viable artifacts is laziness
09/19/2016 03:11 PMPosted by Nightcoil
It's called jumping on the bandwagon. Ever watch/follow sports? I bet 78% of these players used to be Frost, hehe.


I'm a Toronto Maple Leafs fan, I tend to stick it out.

I guess people should wear their spec in bad times with a badge of honor, it means you're playing this game for fun instead of cutting-edge PVE progression. Different strokes for different folks.

The mages who really love Fire will stick with it either way; and to those who claim things like "Fire is finally viable", I dunno how bad it was for you in WoD, but Fire was amazing in mid-late MoP. It was amazing in BC, and it was amazing in Naxx40 (there's never been something as broken as rolling ignites...). I'm a little worried that taking a lot of our passive buffs (all classes) will result in raid stacking like Vanilla though.

For the record I second the person who mentioned Warlocks... I dunno what the hell happened to Aff. I secretly hope there's an Aff. lock in my groups, so I look better, haha.
09/19/2016 03:11 PMPosted by Nightcoil
It's called jumping on the bandwagon. Ever watch/follow sports? I bet 78% of these players used to be Frost, hehe.


I'm a Toronto Maple Leafs fan, I tend to stick it out.

I guess people should wear their spec in bad times with a badge of honor, it means you're playing this game for fun instead of cutting-edge PVE progression. Different Strokes.

For the record I second the person who mentioned Warlocks... I dunno what the hell happened to Aff. I secretly hope there's an Aff. lock in my groups, so I look better, haha.


Thanks for Jeremy "Optimus Prime" Reimer rental! Definitely helped us to get close to promise land but not good enough to finish the job. Such an awesome dude, wish we could keep him.
09/19/2016 03:23 PMPosted by Nightcoil
Thanks for Jeremy "Optimus Prime" Reimer rental! Definitely helped us to get close to promise land but not good enough to finish the job. Such an awesome dude, wish we could keep him.


I bought a Phil Kessel jersey last year just in time for him to leave the team. Taking the Bruins to game 7 in the playoffs was the best thing we've done since the early 90s.

Off-topic, but meh, what's the difference between some of these well thought out and productive comments? heh.
09/19/2016 03:09 PMPosted by Drinkjin
09/19/2016 02:44 PMPosted by Disagreed
This thread is actually one of the most disgusting things I've ever seen posted on a class forum. Toxicity is at an all time high whenever you're basically throwing a middle finger to those of your same class.


I may be a hypocrite for posting this, but take a look at the spec of the most toxic people on this forum... It could be because 99% of mages are that spec, but if that's the case; it's a problem. I've witnessed far more advice from the "underdog" spec threads, than Fire mages asking for help with their spec. They seem to get met with the standard "git gud" or "l2p".

I'd hate to be new to that spec and actually trying to learn... but that's the way FotM'ers are; class/spec elitists... If they're able to play it well, you should be able to as well. It's likely them who are the most hostile to the other specs getting any love... They rolled this class/spec to be the best DPS class after-all.

If it was just a 2-3% difference in damage, I'm sure people's individual preference would over-ride min/maxxing, in all but the most hardcore PVE guilds. I'd be fine with this. As for why things are currently the way they are; I haven't read anyone refute my points from my earlier post yet.


It's not hypocritical, it's more hyperbole than anything. I don't mean that as an insult, I mean that as a truth of the matter.

It's a logical fallacy built off you see X therefore assume all of Y are like X when Y meets a trait of X.

There's nothing to argue about on your original post in this thread, that's your opinion that frost is a more difficult spec to play than the other two, and you're entitled to that opinion.

No one who has a quarter of experience with mages as a whole, and not narrow minded into one spec will tell anyone that there's a reason to bring frost right now over fire. Arcane isn't anywhere near as bad as this forum leads it out to be, it's quite good actually. It has it's place with it's AoE dominance and it being about 5-6% off from fire most of the time. The problem with arcane is purely mechanics, because otherwise outside of maybe a small ST buff there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the damage it's putting out despite what posts on this forum will say.

The "git gud" "l2p" is a by product of the inherent abuse fire mages are taking, compound that with the sarcastic response we get when we inform mages to take rune of power or they'll eat a 15-25% DPS loss overall.

The only thing most of us "fire mages" did wrong was play and optimize the spec with the talents to get the best raid performance as possible. Most higher end raiders don't pick a spec because it's powerful, they pick a class with at the most specs they enjoy and are good at playing and play the most powerful spec that they're good at.

Look at the abuse and comments I've gotten just for logging out being spec'd fire. If I logged out with my two gold trait average item level 845 frost set up do you think I'd have gotten the same responses?
09/19/2016 03:35 PMPosted by Drinkjin
I bought a Phil Kessel jersey last year just in time for him to leave the team. Taking the Bruins to game 7 in the playoffs was the best thing we've done since the early 90s.


As a Pittsburgh native and strong pens fan.

:p

Kessel should have won the Conn Smyth trophy last year, don't care what some of those analysts say. He put up more points than most previous trophy winners in the past, and had one of the most solid play off performances in pens history.
09/19/2016 03:36 PMPosted by Disagreed
09/19/2016 03:09 PMPosted by Drinkjin
...

I may be a hypocrite for posting this, but take a look at the spec of the most toxic people on this forum... It could be because 99% of mages are that spec, but if that's the case; it's a problem. I've witnessed far more advice from the "underdog" spec threads, than Fire mages asking for help with their spec. They seem to get met with the standard "git gud" or "l2p".

I'd hate to be new to that spec and actually trying to learn... but that's the way FotM'ers are; class/spec elitists... If they're able to play it well, you should be able to as well. It's likely them who are the most hostile to the other specs getting any love... They rolled this class/spec to be the best DPS class after-all.

If it was just a 2-3% difference in damage, I'm sure people's individual preference would over-ride min/maxxing, in all but the most hardcore PVE guilds. I'd be fine with this. As for why things are currently the way they are; I haven't read anyone refute my points from my earlier post yet.


It's not hypocritical, it's more hyperbole than anything. I don't mean that as an insult, I mean that as a truth of the matter.

It's a logical fallacy built off you see X therefore assume all of Y are like X when Y meets a trait of X.

There's nothing to argue about on your original post in this thread, that's your opinion that frost is a more difficult spec to play than the other two, and you're entitled to that opinion.

No one who has a quarter of experience with mages as a whole, and not narrow minded into one spec will tell anyone that there's a reason to bring frost right now over fire. Arcane isn't anywhere near as bad as this forum leads it out to be, it's quite good actually. It has it's place with it's AoE dominance and it being about 5-6% off from fire most of the time. The problem with arcane is purely mechanics, because otherwise outside of maybe a small ST buff there's nothing fundamentally wrong with the damage it's putting out despite what posts on this forum will say.

The "git gud" "l2p" is a by product of the inherent abuse fire mages are taking, compound that with the sarcastic response we get when we inform mages to take rune of power or they'll eat a 15-25% DPS loss overall.

The only thing most of us "fire mages" did wrong was play and optimize the spec with the talents to get the best raid performance as possible. Most higher end raiders don't pick a spec because it's powerful, they pick a class with at the most specs they enjoy and are good at playing and play the most powerful spec that they're good at.

Look at the abuse and comments I've gotten just for logging out being spec'd fire. If I logged out with my two gold trait average item level 845 frost set up do you think I'd have gotten the same responses?


No-one is calling for a Fire nerf though. Yet the frosties and arcane mages who are asking for a buff are met with hostility and toxicity from people like "Tuné", as though those two specs being competitive are a threat to them. Even if I'm willing to grant them a small superiority in damage in a cutting-edge PVE environment. All we're asking is to be buffed enough not to be rejected from Mythics the second someone sees a water elemental.

The only explanation those players give is "Frost is easier", which since Legion it isn't. Perhaps this is an opinion, but it's based on conditionals and logic, which I haven't seen matched from their PoV.
Devs always said and keep saying that they want and will try to make each spec viable, never have the implied they intend to make a class remain with only 1 viable spec, there is no pvp spec, that is what community makes up based on current balance that always changes.

And honestly, fire is good but arcane isnt that far behind. And in pvp arcane is away better thanks to displacement and ok damage compared to fire's medicore pvp damage and lack of great mobility like arcane.

ANd like someone said, the dps might be good for fire, and sometimes arcane in dungeons because the bosses die incredibly fast, so you can use your cooldowns and they might not be up by the end of the fight.

In raids that will severely hurt both arcane and fire mages. Fire mages are dependent on combustion for strong burst and after that are quite mediocre, and arcane mages are able to burst for longer but after that your damage drops quite severely and cant do much until evo is up again.

HOnestly, they both seem to be pretty close in long term scenarios.
09/19/2016 03:08 PMPosted by Cerripha
09/19/2016 12:10 PMPosted by Ambuur
I think the mindset comes from the fact that you have to level your weapon as well as your character and switching can be kind of pain.


But it's not like this was just sprung upon us. There was a beta. There is altered time. We knew where the specs ranked. We knew that Blizzard said they weren't doing any balance changes until they collected data from EN at least.


They literally just said that a few days ago. And even if they said in beta "We are leaving things as all until after the first raid." it is no excuse to have a spec that is completely under tuned and pretty much forcing anyone that wants to do competitive DPS into one spec. That may have flew in other expansions before artifacts but now it just doesn't.
09/19/2016 03:11 PMPosted by Nightcoil
I bet 78% of these players used to be Frost, hehe.


I'd hope not because they were suppose to get off that wagon after Highmaul.
People need to stop using the "2nd artifact" argument.

Even if Arcane has comparative patchwerk DPS, the mechanical aspects of it may prohibit it from functioning optimally in realistic scenarios. These aspects include phase changes, melee mechanics that complicate AOE rotations, and the fact that our optimal AOE that doesn't destroy our mana requires Arcane Barrage while the one that makes us viable as ST requires us to maintain a 6 second buff and never cast Arcane Barrage.

So Fire is better on ST, cleave, sustained AOE, losing only to Arcane on burst AOE and even then that's dependent on whether or not you time Combustion.

Fire never has to worry about melee mechanics. Never has to worry about maintaining a buff. Never has to worry about its resources. It's far easier to manage in progression.

"Go Fire' is not a solution for those who are invested in Arcane, because there's no situation in which they'd actually get to play Arcane

So in the end you might as well just switch Fire and never touch Arcane again.

You CHOSE to play Arcane or Frost. Blizzard said hybrids should not have to pay hybrid tax. Why does a pure DPS class have to pay pure tax? I should NOT feel compelled to switch Fire, just like a Feral Druid should not be compelled to switch to Restoration to play their class effectively.
Arcane has that potential there.. I mean you can reaaally feel how strong it is when you start to hit 20-25 stacks of Quickening. Annnd then phase swap/having to execute a mechanic and your DPS, which was actually really good, takes a crap.

I love the spec though, and I do love Quickening. It is a really, really fun talent.

However, for the above reasons, it is just.. clunky. Clearing with barrage? That's why some sims for Arcane tell you not to ever cast Barrage.. a signature spell.. that speaks for itself.

As far as spec swapping and stuff goes: I debated for days about what spec to play. My play time is going to limit myself to Normal and maybe some Heroic raids on weekend, but mostly just Mythic+ key running with a group of friends. The old Heroic raid leader/min max player in me said "Fire is top, you know the drill." In the end however, I chose Arcane because I enjoyed it more after playing both Fire and Arcane for about two weeks with equal weapons. It was a really tough thing.

So with my limited time, all resources go into Arcane. In a few weeks, I will catch Fire up with Research Notes adding up, but.. I do pretty damn well for the content I aim at with Arcane and have a blast with my friends. That doesn't mean I don't think it needs some lovin' tho.

I am hyped to do Normal raids and see how far I can stack Quickening though! Wont do Heroic/Mythic as Arcane though, as I feel it may hold others back. I feel Arcane will do all right in Mythic 5+ for now.
Get gear, get gud. U need moar legendary.
People need to stop using the "2nd artifact" argument.

Why does a pure DPS class have to pay pure tax? I should NOT feel compelled to switch Fire


This right here exactly, people should be allowed to play their favorite spec and not be made to feel like an !@#$%^- for wanting to do so.

That being said I feel like Arcane could use with a lot of work even if the numbers have the potential to be there. If we're going for the whole class fantasy thing where the hell are my cosmic powers as an Arcane mage.

For the spec that's supposed to feel the most magical it's the least impressive spell effect wise and that is a huge turn off to me
09/19/2016 07:04 PMPosted by Yotza
Arcane has that potential there.. I mean you can reaaally feel how strong it is when you start to hit 20-25 stacks of Quickening. Annnd then phase swap/having to execute a mechanic and your DPS, which was actually really good, takes a crap.

I love the spec though, and I do love Quickening. It is a really, really fun talent.

However, for the above reasons, it is just.. clunky. Clearing with barrage? That's why some sims for Arcane tell you not to ever cast Barrage.. a signature spell.. that speaks for itself.

As far as spec swapping and stuff goes: I debated for days about what spec to play. My play time is going to limit myself to Normal and maybe some Heroic raids on weekend, but mostly just Mythic+ key running with a group of friends. The old Heroic raid leader/min max player in me said "Fire is top, you know the drill." In the end however, I chose Arcane because I enjoyed it more after playing both Fire and Arcane for about two weeks with equal weapons. It was a really tough thing.

So with my limited time, all resources go into Arcane. In a few weeks, I will catch Fire up with Research Notes adding up, but.. I do pretty damn well for the content I aim at with Arcane and have a blast with my friends. That doesn't mean I don't think it needs some lovin' tho.

I am hyped to do Normal raids and see how far I can stack Quickening though! Wont do Heroic/Mythic as Arcane though, as I feel it may hold others back. I feel Arcane will do all right in Mythic 5+ for now.


09/19/2016 06:11 PMPosted by Mythlos
People need to stop using the "2nd artifact" argument.

Even if Arcane has comparative patchwerk DPS, the mechanical aspects of it may prohibit it from functioning optimally in realistic scenarios. These aspects include phase changes, melee mechanics that complicate AOE rotations, and the fact that our optimal AOE that doesn't destroy our mana requires Arcane Barrage while the one that makes us viable as ST requires us to maintain a 6 second buff and never cast Arcane Barrage.

So Fire is better on ST, cleave, sustained AOE, losing only to Arcane on burst AOE and even then that's dependent on whether or not you time Combustion.

Fire never has to worry about melee mechanics. Never has to worry about maintaining a buff. Never has to worry about its resources. It's far easier to manage in progression.

"Go Fire' is not a solution for those who are invested in Arcane, because there's no situation in which they'd actually get to play Arcane

So in the end you might as well just switch Fire and never touch Arcane again.

You CHOSE to play Arcane or Frost. Blizzard said hybrids should not have to pay hybrid tax. Why does a pure DPS class have to pay pure tax? I should NOT feel compelled to switch Fire, just like a Feral Druid should not be compelled to switch to Restoration to play their class effectively.
This.
Mage is fine
09/19/2016 12:02 PMPosted by Colivar
No idea where this current mind set of all must be equal is coming from.
It comes from the multiple posts from various Blizzard employees who have stated that they want all specs to be viable and their goal is to have them within 5% of each other. Stop being petulant and accept that some people don't like Fire, nor should they be punished in group content for wanting the other two specs to be competitive.

09/19/2016 12:34 PMPosted by Fåelystiri
Fire isn't like Frost where its really easy.
Have you even played Frost this expansion? It has literally twice the set up, twice the buttons, and a "rotation" that is twice as complex as Fire (even discounting the fact that Frost doesn't have to run RoP) just to achieve results that are sub-par in comparison. Fire is by far the easiest Mage spec currently.

When you said it was really easy (compared to Fire), where did you even pull that from?
I'm going to guess MoP, where it was a 2.5-button spec.

09/19/2016 01:52 PMPosted by Aenlon
You'll be one or two points behind on your main arti at most.
Yeah no. Perhaps that is the case prior to the 1st dragon trait, but once you get to the stage where it's costing you 20k AP per point it's simply not a viable option to split that between two artefacts.

09/19/2016 02:05 PMPosted by Aenlon
So is every single world quest you skip which gives AP
At 400 points per quest you soon get to the point where it takes ~50 quests to get a trait (I play casually and I'm easily at that point). If you split that between two weapons you'll end up needing up to 100 quests.

09/19/2016 03:53 PMPosted by Drinkjin
No-one is calling for a Fire nerf though. Yet the frosties and arcane mages who are asking for a buff are met with hostility and toxicity from people like "Tuné", as though those two specs being competitive are a threat to them.
Exactly. No one has an issue with Fire being the top spec. What we're asking is for Frost to be somewhat competitive so that it is at least viable. In its current state groups are understandably denying Frost because it really is THAT far behind.

09/19/2016 10:07 PMPosted by Hazzym
Mage is fine
No, FIRE is fine. Arcane is Ok in terms on numbers, but mechanically it is broken. Frost is both mechanically cumbersome and weak.

I'm with the OP. Just look at this thread and notice all the Fire Mages telling the others to suck it up. I'll warrant a guess that they haven't even considered touching the other specs, but like to run their smugness in everyone's faces given that they're the current top spec.

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