Why no Orc/Draenei Demon Hunters?

Story Forum
09/14/2016 02:27 PMPosted by Jacksprat
I think there may actually be a lore reason. Illidan has incorporated orcs into his Illidari army. But when orcs feed on demons they just become fel orcs. And Illidan ihad incorporated them to the point that he was intentionally creating fel orcs. I think fel just affects orcs more violently than it does elves. Those that don't have enough fel to become demonic are already in game as green orcs.


That is a good point there, this is only a theory of mine, but maybe the blood experiments on the Orcs that Illidan had going in Hellfire Citadel could have been his attempts to create Orc Demon Hunters. He could have been trying to find the proper levels and dosage of Fel an Orc would need to become like the Elven Demon hunters, this would make sense as there are very limited numbers of Elves that can become DHs, a 1 in 5 ratio if I recall correctly, but Outland is just teeming with Orcs. What if he had an idea to make Orc Demon Hunters the rank and file bulk of his army and the Elves Commanding Officers. Hence the experiments with Magthederion's blood, naturally things did not go the way he had hoped, this is one of the things Illidan is known for, not thinking things completely through and despite whatever good intentions he might have had, things going horribly awry. Just a theory.
09/14/2016 04:19 PMPosted by Shiwu
The Illidan novel says otherwise.


Yeah, I'd need a quote from the Illidan novel, or at least for it to be repeated by someone with credibility. Given that what you said earlier was

09/14/2016 11:22 AMPosted by Shiwu
But it wasn't. Every time we've seen demon hunters it's literally a sea of elves.


I would actually be shocked if the Illidan novel ever declares that orc and draenei demon hunters would 'break the lore.' And in the absence of direct support for your claim, I've already addressed the point you made earlier.

But you can't even say "they don't exist." All you can say is "we haven't seen one yet."


09/14/2016 02:27 PMPosted by Jacksprat
I think there may actually be a lore reason. Illidan has incorporated orcs into his Illidari army. But when orcs feed on demons they just become fel orcs. And Illidan ihad incorporated them to the point that he was intentionally creating fel orcs. I think fel just affects orcs more violently than it does elves. Those that don't have enough fel to become demonic are already in game as green orcs.


That's a point worth considering, certainly the only one that provides even the start of an explanation for why it couldn't happen.

However, in Rise of the Horde we saw the Eredar were capable of being warped by the fel in multiple ways. Similarly we see that fel corrupted Night Elves can be Satyr, or Demonhunters. And we saw fel corrupted Blood Elves throughout Burning Crusade and they showed the same penchant for violence as fel corrupted orcs. It's been established that the fel can have more than a single effect depending on how it's applied.
09/14/2016 04:25 PMPosted by Draelik
It's not really as much of a lore thing as a design restriction thing.

It's a mixture of both. They designed the class in such a way where they would have to devote a lot of extra resources to making addition models for each race's customization, as well as their metamorphosis and potentially their animations (They would probably have to add the unique animations to each race they added the class too, similar to what they had to do with the monk.).

The Starting experience is another hurdle they would have to tackle due to it taking place during a time when only elf Demon Hunters existed.

09/14/2016 04:30 PMPosted by Xilexa
I know the starting expreeience now does. But, in the future other races could have s seperate starting experience should they go that rout.

While I agree that a seperate starting experience would be the ideal solution, I doubt that Blizzard would devote the time and resources to doing that.
Yeah, I'd need a quote from the Illidan novel

Before I even do that, do you actually own the Illidan novel? There's no point in me giving you quotes unless you can actually read it for yourself given that you seem to be the type of person that wouldn't believe it otherwise.

Let me put it to you this way, any time it mentions a Demon Hunter or the Demon Hunter trainees races, it always either says Blood Elves or Night Elves. Don't you think that if there were other races being trained as Demon Hunters at that time it would have mentioned it in the novel where Demon Hunters and their training is one of the major focuses?

The only Demon Hunters we've ever seen, heard about in game and read about in novels (Including the one involving the origin of the Illidari Demon Hunters) have all been elves. Yeah, you can say that Demon Hunters of other races exist and we just haven't seen them somehow, but that's a massive stretch. That's the issue here.

You can say that there is an underwater city inhabited by Gnomes and Pandaren that learned how to breathe underwater too. After all, the lore never outright said it couldn't happen right?
09/14/2016 04:37 PMPosted by Shiwu

While I agree that a seperate starting experience would be the ideal solution, I doubt that Blizzard would devote the time and resources to doing that.

[/quote]

I know. This is why racial starting zones made more sense long ago. If you're a hunter you can be any race of hunter and every hunter starts somewhere else. If you're a death knight you can be any race of death knight, and they all start together.

Illidari are the elves only club thanks to the starting area.

I would not be opposed to other races, however; is my main thing. I only made a blood elf because it was the only race option for Horde. I don't have anything against making yet another blood elf, but I would have maybe made a something else had it been an option.
09/14/2016 04:37 PMPosted by Shiwu
Before I even do that, do you actually own the Illidan novel? There's no point in me giving you quotes unless you can actually read it for yourself given that you seem to be the type of person that wouldn't believe it otherwise.


That's oddly evasive and accusatory with no reason. Given how little credibility you've built up, are you sure going on the offensive is the best course?

Lets see how you follow it up.

09/14/2016 04:37 PMPosted by Shiwu
Let me put it to you this way, any time it mentions a Demon Hunter or the Demon Hunter trainees races, it always either says Blood Elves or Night Elves.


And here we go. As predicted. I addressed this already, and then quoted where I addressed it in the post you are responding too. That you feel to make this mistake even though you've been warned away from it twice goes to establish that it was indeed a mistake for you to go on the offensive and in fact that I was right to classify you as someone with no credibility.

Now remember, the claim you made was.

09/14/2016 02:14 PMPosted by Shiwu
I take it that putting any other Demon Hunter in the DH starting experience would completely break the lore isn't a good enough reason for you either?


That is what you so glibly claimed the Illidan novel established before so dramatically and blatantly running away from the point.

So no, the fact that orc and draenei demonhunters are never mentioned in the Illidan novel does not establish that their existence would break the lore.

Do you have anything intelligent to say? Can you do something to establish that you can follow the logic of your own claims? Or is this entire exchange going to amount to you saying it can't happen because you ain't never seen it before?
09/14/2016 05:15 PMPosted by Gibbet
That is what you so glibly claimed the Illidan novel established before so dramatically and blatantly running away from the point.

If you knew me, you'd know why my debate skills aren't up to par at the moment. However....

09/14/2016 05:15 PMPosted by Gibbet
Do you have anything intelligent to say? Can you do something to establish that you can follow the logic of your own claims? Or is this entire exchange going to amount to you saying it can't happen because you ain't never seen it before?

After seeing this I have no intent of letting you get to know me tbh. Countering someone's arguments is perfectly fine. However, acting like a condescending jerk and belittling your opponent is not.

There's no point in continuing this discussion with someone who acts the way you are currently acting. Consider this a win for yourself if you want to, I really couldn't care less.
09/14/2016 05:50 PMPosted by Shiwu
After seeing this I have no intent of letting you get to know me tbh. Countering someone's arguments is perfectly fine. However, acting like a condescending jerk and belittling your opponent is not.

There's no point in continuing this discussion with someone who acts the way you are currently acting. Consider this a win for yourself if you want to, I really couldn't care less.


I have typed out three to four serious responses that addressed the issue from multiple angles.

You failed to read any of them, then posted inane responses that missed the point, while straw manning my position every time and failing to keep the thread of your own argument. You presume to tell others what is and is not required for this to happen, always making the requirements the most extreme possibilities, all while showing a glaring lack of understanding of this games development or history. And now that I'm frustrated enough to call you on your ineptitude, on your unjustified arrogance, all of a sudden you aren't glib, you are wounded. You are the injured party and it is I, who made the mistake of actually reading your posts and considering your position, and somehow expecting the same from you, who am the disrespectful one.

Not engaging with you is no big loss. You'll fade into the background of internet 'experts' who are perpetually amazed when things don't work out how they expect. My only regret is that you're going to tell yourself that your failure to contribute anything of worth in this thread while simultaneously dismissing others ideas is okay because I was mean to you. Not that your failures are my responsibility, but I'll always wonder if there was a way to make the 1 sentence of every post of mine you read and responded too full enough, complete enough, clever enough to convey the whole thought.

Rationally of course I know there is no person in the world who would get you to understand their point of view with the amount of lazy effort you were willing to invest in understanding me. But emotionally, this, you sulking and refusing to engage even a single argument or defend a single one of your assertions, will always feel like my failure.
It was a RPG retcon.

The old Warcraft RPG specifically said Humans could be Demon Hunters, and any race could train to become one.

Now that it's retconned, it's been changed to only Night Elves and Blood Elves of the Illidari.
09/14/2016 06:26 PMPosted by Decree
It was a RPG retcon.

The old Warcraft RPG specifically said Humans could be Demon Hunters, and any race could train to become one.

Now that it's retconned, it's been changed to only Night Elves and Blood Elves of the Illidari.

I had forgotten about that part of the old RPG. I wonder why they changed it.

09/14/2016 06:17 PMPosted by Gibbet
09/14/2016 05:50 PMPosted by Shiwu
After seeing this I have no intent of letting you get to know me tbh. Countering someone's arguments is perfectly fine. However, acting like a condescending jerk and belittling your opponent is not.

There's no point in continuing this discussion with someone who acts the way you are currently acting. Consider this a win for yourself if you want to, I really couldn't care less.


I have typed out three to four serious responses that addressed the issue from multiple angles.

You failed to read any of them, then posted inane responses that missed the point, while straw manning my position every time and failing to keep the thread of your own argument. You presume to tell others what is and is not required for this to happen, always making the requirements the most extreme possibilities, all while showing a glaring lack of understanding of this games development or history. And now that I'm frustrated enough to call you on your ineptitude, on your unjustified arrogance, all of a sudden you aren't glib, you are wounded. You are the injured party and it is I, who made the mistake of actually reading your posts and considering your position, and somehow expecting the same from you, who am the disrespectful one.

Not engaging with you is no big loss. You'll fade into the background of internet 'experts' who are perpetually amazed when things don't work out how they expect. My only regret is that you're going to tell yourself that your failure to contribute anything of worth in this thread while simultaneously dismissing others ideas is okay because I was mean to you. Not that your failures are my responsibility, but I'll always wonder if there was a way to make the 1 sentence of every post of mine you read and responded too full enough, complete enough, clever enough to convey the whole thought.

Rationally of course I know there is no person in the world who would get you to understand their point of view with the amount of lazy effort you were willing to invest in understanding me. But emotionally, this, you sulking and refusing to engage even a single argument or defend a single one of your assertions, will always feel like my failure.

Gibbet, you need to dial it back dude. You're making a lot of assumptions about someone you barely know and quite frankly you're being a little pretentious atm.

You aren't the reason I'm upset, stuff that is actually important to me is. When I'm upset, I don't debate well, which is what you're seeing in this thread. I said I was done with this debate because you were throwing insults and acting condescending but that isn't because what you were doing was hurting my feelings (You'd have to do a lot more than that to hurt my feelings) but because of my views on what a debate is. In my eyes, the moment someone starts acting condescending or rude like you were doing and are continuing to do, the debate is over.

Now seriously, let's be done with whatever this is supposed to be. Stop with the condescending remarks and let's act like adults. There's no reason to derail the thread any further.
I had forgotten about that part of the old RPG. I wonder why they changed it.


It would have been a cool thing to have kept in, especially because I think I remember the RPG having it where a contingent of human Demon Hunters were guarding Hyjal.

Considering the appearance of the human Demon Hunters from the RPG book... it would have been bad !@# to see these heavily armoured warlock looking types fighting at Hyjal against the Twilight's Hammer.
09/14/2016 07:01 PMPosted by Mythlanai
I had forgotten about that part of the old RPG. I wonder why they changed it.


It would have been a cool thing to have kept in, especially because I think I remember the RPG having it where a contingent of human Demon Hunters were guarding Hyjal.

Considering the appearance of the human Demon Hunters from the RPG book... it would have been bad !@# to see these heavily armoured warlock looking types fighting at Hyjal against the Twilight's Hammer.

Yeah, that would have been pretty rad. It's odd that they decided to turn the Illidari Demon Hunters into an Elves only club when they had an interesting concept like that. But, what's done is done
09/14/2016 07:01 PMPosted by Mythlanai
...

It would have been a cool thing to have kept in, especially because I think I remember the RPG having it where a contingent of human Demon Hunters were guarding Hyjal.

Considering the appearance of the human Demon Hunters from the RPG book... it would have been bad !@# to see these heavily armoured warlock looking types fighting at Hyjal against the Twilight's Hammer.

Yeah, that would have been pretty rad. It's odd that they decided to turn the Illidari Demon Hunters into an Elves only club when they had an interesting concept like that. But, what's done is done


It wasn't a specific retcon, but at Blizzcon (2010? Maybe?) Metzen on stage de-canonized the entire RPG due to a few stupid things.

Over the years they had already begun retconning certain things, like the Scarlet Crusade when they ruined them with the Ashbringer comics. I like them as stories, but compaired to the RPG lore? Gimmie back.

I would've liked the RPG version of Demon Hunters as well, it would've added more spice to it, but sadly this is one of those things that may not happen for a long time, if ever.

They said maybe the Illidari will train other races to become Demon Hunters, but who knows.

They also said a lot of things in the past...

Only time will tell.
If you are going to lean your argument on something about how Orcs/Draenei are too strong and bulky to be Demon Hunters, I'd like to draw your attention to the Vengence Demon form and how flipping giant it is. The fact that it is a type of Demon Hunter trained and equipped to go head to head with powerful demons (IE, A tank), it clearly indicates that Illidan has need of this sort of highly mobile yet incredibly physically robust infantry that differ from Havoc Demon Hunters. As Orcs and Draenei are clearly far more physically robust by nature than Elves, they would be the perfect choice to make into Vengence Demon Hunters. I know nobody mentions Vengence DHs in the book, but if they are in the game they are canon. Besides, Orcs can be Rogues. One of the best Rogues ever was an Orc, Garona. If you want agility, you look at Rogues.

It is NOWHERE in the Illidan novel explained why Illidan chooses Elves, why he only chooses Elves or if he does specifically choose Elves. As far as the book explains, Elves just seek out Illidan to learn to fight the Legion, roll up to the Black Temple and try out. I have a feeling it would be very biased against anyone who wasn't an Elf, because their training (as the book indicates, but the book didn't cover everything because there's no mention of Vengence DHs) is all about mobility and agility and that style of Melee combat that only works in fantasy stories.

The power the Demon Hunters wield are drawn from a demon they bind inside their bodies. They kill a demon, eat it's heart and absorb it's essence into themselves, and can then draw on it's power to fight and use Fel magic. This is never defined as a process that could only work on Elves specifically.

Other races should have had the option to be Demon Hunters, specifically Orcs and in my opinion, Humans over Draenei, as Draenei are pretty hard-line about tampering with Demonic energies whereas Humans are willing to go down that route in individual cases.

Oh and somebody said this is an Elf expansion. Another boring and played-out Druid zone with another World Tree tipped me off already. I mean, why did we care about the one Archimonde wanted to wreck if this one was still here?
If I remember the short and simple reason, it's because Illidan was a tad bit racist.

Not, "ALL THE ORCS NEED TO DIE!" racist but more along the lines of, "Oh my goodness could you imagine them trying to become a demon hunter? They'd be be holding the warglaives all wrong with their little clumsy fat fingers mumbling their inane orc babble."

In his mind only an elf has what it takes to become a demon hunter-and to his defense it is tailored to the highly agile. But nothing has ever shown us that they are all that's capable.
Wow...downvoted to oblivion. Well then.

Maybe in the future they'll be playable. Sorta like they did with DK's in Cata (no, we ALWAYS had Worgen and Goblin Death Knights, you just weren't looking hard enough). Perhaps Illidan had a small number of "non Elf" demon hunters he was starting to train towards the end of BC or something.

Didn't mean to ruffle any elf feathers. Just an idea. :)
09/15/2016 06:21 AMPosted by Arentir
If I remember the short and simple reason, it's because Illidan was a tad bit racist.


Maybe. But they're also working really hard to establish Illidan as a hero now, and Blizzard doesn't usually write racists as heroes. I'd expect his racism to be quietly retconned out of existence, along with his megalomania, his massacres, his delusions of grandeur, and anything else that pushes him too far into the anti side of anti-heroism.
09/14/2016 10:47 AMPosted by Shiwu
Because only Elves are Demon Hunters. That has always been the case and the Illidan novel and Harbingers only further backed that up.

09/14/2016 10:41 AMPosted by Daemonsunfel
I remember a eredar was Illidari and many fel orcs

http://wow.gamepedia.com/Illidari_Lord_Balthas

They weren't Demon Hunters though.


All true, but it doesn't mean it was a good story. A touch of variety would go a long way with this bland class of elves.
I'd appreciate having at least 2 races per faction for each class. I don't really care if new lore is made to justify it as long as it doesn't retcon previous lore.

I actually liked the Blood Knights more when they were bitter, disenchanted Paladins that viewed the Light as a non-divine force - Just another school of magic to be mastered. Keeping everything OG doesn't always tell the most interesting story. You need some level of evolution. We have enough do-gooder Paladins, anti-hero Paladins weren't so bad.

Similarly, we don't need an entire class bound to two races when fel magic and melee combat are utilized by virtually all races. It's not like we're giving an Orc a religious/cultural title like Priestess of Elune or anything.
It's a mixture of both. They designed the class in such a way where they would have to devote a lot of extra resources to making addition models for each race's customization, as well as their metamorphosis and potentially their animations (They would probably have to add the unique animations to each race they added the class too, similar to what they had to do with the monk.).

Goblins and worgen have monk animations, so that's not really a hurdle.

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