Am I just bad at PvP?

Mage
Playing a fire mage, and in world pvp I cannot do !@#$. If I get attacked by a physical dps, I just give up at this point.

I'm probably going to take out a 2nd mortgage so I can afford the ridiculous price to transfer characters to a PvE server.
Too general to tell. Fire mages kite and good kiting is a skill.
10/02/2016 06:23 AMPosted by Raest
Too general to tell. Fire mages kite and good kiting is a skill.


I almost died of laughter.

Kiting and peeling are different, and fire mages no longer play the kite game, they play the hard peel game.

The slow that Flamestrike affords is so petty compared to things like Chains of Ice, Hamstring, Disable, and Shadow Strikes that you can spend your entire time running from a melee in Frost Nova and still not have the full duration of the slow fall off.

It's very easy to be caught with your pants down right now as a fire mage since you have to spent a gratuitous amount of effort just zoning a single person, nevermind two or more. With practice you can do some damage, but in terms of raw swing per GCD we're still behind the curve which makes us feel underwhelming since we went from HUGE BURST the last two expansions to a more temperate VAGUELY CONSISTENT PRESSURE. Exciting, I know.

You're going to see a lot more uptime with melee, and there's damn near no way to escape when they do get on top of you. Your best bet is to learn how to fake the !@#$ out of people to pull kicks and then start hardcasting in their face while you wait for Frost Nova, Dragon's Breath, etc.

And just to twist this knife a little further in the spellcaster gut, let's not forget that every spec's burst is completely dispellable. Arcane Power? Purge. Combustion? Purge. Icy Veins? Purge. We have to rely on external buff protection to keep them meaningfully and if there's another mage with Kleptomania he can safely sit on his Spellsteal until you burst and then just snap it away in a single cast then macro dispel it to keep you from taking it from him.

There's also the fact that while our Pyroblasts are now hitting like teddy bear being fired from a pitching machine... THEY'RE STILL DISPELLABLE! Why? That BC patch made me WTF harder than I ever have when I saw Frost lose its dispellable burst and Fire inherited it.

In summary, is this damning to the class? Ehh... no? No, not really... but we're basically glorified polybots that don't do a whole lot of frightening front-end pressure when we want to. The playstyle isn't as excessive and big-numbered like we're used to so it feels lacking. You can perform as fire with a considerable amount of effort, but it wont make it any more fun.
Battlegrounds is a complete uphill battle on fire, unless the melee is really bad... or a ret paladin.

We get a lot better in arena but with no dispel protection still a good priest or shaman can make your life hell.

In world pvp we get a lot better since the stat template isn't there to hamper fire's playstyle. You should be winning your world pvp fights tbh.
I stopped trying to pvp with fire and switched to frost. I'm absolutely loving it! Dealing with melee has become less of a burden.
10/02/2016 03:32 PMPosted by Gríz
I stopped trying to pvp with fire and switched to frost. I'm absolutely loving it! Dealing with melee has become less of a burden.


Can you give me any advice? I've been trying to PvP Frost in BGs lately and I'm having a hard time surviving, especially when two or more melee stick to me. I just can't seem to do anything.
I started doing BGs as fire and didn't go much on it either but they seemed to give frost some love as I am performing ok in this spec now.
10/02/2016 05:30 PMPosted by Iceshards
10/02/2016 03:32 PMPosted by Gríz
I stopped trying to pvp with fire and switched to frost. I'm absolutely loving it! Dealing with melee has become less of a burden.


Can you give me any advice? I've been trying to PvP Frost in BGs lately and I'm having a hard time surviving, especially when two or more melee stick to me. I just can't seem to do anything.


Normal BG's? Heaps of options depending on the scenario you're in.

Frost nova x2, icy nova, pet freeze, cone of cold when in melee range, shimmer x2, ice block if you can see team mates on their way or to remove dots (or negate big incoming/wait out burst), spell steal for buffs, silence other casters on their CC or heals. I rarely sheep in BG's but can be good in a 2 on 1 situation if the target already used trinket.

There's probably more that I'm forgetting.

From a damage side, frost bolts while they're out of melee, ideally when frozen. Just run away when they're in melee lol. Keep your FoF ice lances and instant flurries for when they're chasing you (or running away) unless it's about to drop off, glacial spike when you can ideally into a frozen target.

Ummm just trying to think what else? That's probably enough to do okay. The rest will be practice. Just stick it out. Sometimes you'll be in a winning BG and you'll feel like a god. Other times it will be not so nice.

Just have fun with it and don't worry if you don't crush it every time.
Mage is the strongest caster atm by far. Also, pvp is balanced around 3s, so don't expect to be a Duel God in WPVP.

Our damage is built around burst, so you need to love long enough to build up enough icicles for a Glacial Spike into an Ice Nova, but if you do, that alone is half a player's health.

Something I don't see used enough by mages in WPVP is polymorph. Sheep the enemy and cc enemy CDs. Don't even try to kite or live them. The longer you can hold on to your blinks, temp shield and block, the better.

Also, remember that gear in WPVP also plays a factor. Mages are capable of winning a battle of attrition against most melee in arenas, but in WPVP, whether mythic raid gear is a thing, expect to get unfairly two shot by pve bads who think they are good rofl.
Thanks folks. Yeah my goal is casual PvP. I don't do much beyond normal BGs, some world PvP, and the occasional 2v2 arena.

I'm playing around with different talent options atm. One combo I thought might work is Chilled to the Bone + Burst of Cold. Figured it would work well against groups of melee when they decide to target me.

Another thing I'm debating is whether to go with Glacial Spike or Comet Storm. I know that when it does work, Glacial Spike can hit pretty hard with Ice Nova. But at the same time it takes a lot of preparation, and good luck getting one off when a single rogue or demon hunter even looks at you funny.

10/02/2016 05:53 PMPosted by Vennodrood
I rarely sheep in BG's but can be good in a 2 on 1 situation if the target already used trinket.


10/02/2016 06:25 PMPosted by Lorendrethil
Something I don't see used enough by mages in WPVP is polymorph. Sheep the enemy and cc enemy CDs. Don't even try to kite or live them. The longer you can hold on to your blinks, temp shield and block, the better.


Polymorph seems to work well in small scale fights. Not so much the bigger ones from what I've experienced. Lots of AoE going around, lots of people hitting different targets, etc.
Great response, Caldrich. Very well summed up.

To the others who pop into these threads telling us of your successes : So basically, we just have to give up on Fire for PvP, start leveling Ebonchill, and perfectly timing Glacial Spikes?

I've had a lot of fun leveling and doing dungeons with Fire but I guess we just have to give up on it if we want to PvP?
10/03/2016 11:29 AMPosted by Milambehr
Great response, Caldrich. Very well summed up.

To the others who pop into these threads telling us of your successes : So basically, we just have to give up on Fire for PvP, start leveling Ebonchill, and perfectly timing Glacial Spikes?

I've had a lot of fun leveling and doing dungeons with Fire but I guess we just have to give up on it if we want to PvP?

Fire is perfectly fine in pvp and in some scenarios it's better than frost. Rerolling frost for pvp if you like fire isn't necessary.

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