We just beta tested tanks in INSTANCED PvP

Battlegrounds
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09/22/2016 10:08 PMPosted by Sudian
I've played since pre-WOTLK back when I had to buy fancy arrows in order to shoot and actually used mana (lol). I've PvP'd on and off it is mostly what I have done in this game and can tell you tanks were insane in pvp. I seen a tank with 3500k health while I am at 842 ilvl with only 2053k basically 60% more HP and since damage is much less in player vs player they would just self heal it took over 2 dps poping all CD's to kill a tank if you wanted to 1v1 you would battle for years. Tanks need to have a purpose in pvp and I think they do in almost all pvp battles. You can run flag, you can hold flags for example mines, stables or even just holding bosses like drek. You guys should be objective focused not being allowed to run into a group of dps and self heal on-top of being healed by a healer and tank 3+ people it is just insane.

They really need to split PvP and PvE buffs and nerfs, this nerf was 100% for PvP but caused brewmaster and guardian druid to become nothing in PvE. On top of that they just need overall PvP balancing for damage roles, for example I am a hunter I have 1 heal spell that is on a 2minute CD for 30% of my health yes that is right 30% every 2minutes nothing else (unless I aspect and bandage/potion) but I can't disease remove or dispel so I am basically just getting destroyed in a lot of pvp scenarios.

If blizzard really is having trouble with this whole balancing thing IDK why they are ignoring the community so much and delaying crucial class fixes. I mean we are the reason why this game is here, we have the biggest voice and it feels like we are just being turned away and ignored.


Unfortunately the core of your problem comes from the fact that PvP in this game heavily favors those with self healing in any situation where you do not have a dedicated healer watching your HP, ala instanced PvP like Arena and BGs - you are at a severe disadvantaged. In fact, if you don't have reliable self healing, it's difficult to do much of anything in this game alone. The game isn't balanced around 1v1 combat, though - and that's why this change is a bad change. Tanks shouldn't be able to be easily solo'd by a lone DPS - just like healers aren't designed to. They are a TANK, they should be hard to kill!

You could tell the exact same story you told about tanks being hard to kill, but about a healer, they are just as imbalanced in PvP and take 2 DPS coordinating cooldowns, CCs and interrupts to kill. In a 1v1 against a healer, as a hunter with no self healing, you bet you are just as screwed as you would be fighting a tank, simply because they can outlast you, they win the math game - and will eventually kill you because your 30% every 2 minutes isn't enough to save you.

But what if both of you had a healer healing you? Then who would be at an advantage? After the nerf, the tank doesn't have the damage to simply burst you or your healer, and now after all these nerfs the tank doesn't even have the survivability to handle a burst from a healer/dps combo. Tanks are literally a liability due to this nerf. That shouldn't be the case.

And that's why when you balance the game around 1v1, it's going to never be balanced in 2v2 or 3v3s. Tanks need to have the survivability to be relevant in PvP, they aren't another DPS, and they sure as hell shouldn't die faster than one like they do now.
Most tanks played tanks in PvP because they were powerful. Now that tanks got nerfed back in line, you are left with tanks who will continue to tank because they enjoy the playstyle and class fantasy, not because they are FotM rollers.

FotM rollers / fairweather fans do not deserve any "refund". Just move on to the next FotM like you always do.


Getting hit for 25% extra damage because you are a spec that is supposed to reduce damage taken does not fit the playstyle or class fantasy.
I was one of the ppl saying tanks needed a damage nerf in wpvp, that is the only place they were op. Honestly i felt they were alrdy a bit weak in instanced pvp before the nerfs. Blizzard just crushed tanks with the nerf hammer and any chance of tanks havin a spot in Rated along with them.

I think it should take at least 3 decent dps to kill 1 decent tank, but at the same time it should take 3 decent tanks to kill 1 decent dps. You shouldnt have to worry about a tank melting you in a few seconds but you should see a tank and think "!@#$ its a tank, those guys take forever to kill". The class should be ideal for running flags and base sitting, its a good niche for them and gives ppl another option other than dps and healing.

Why even bother with the whole equalized gear and pvp templates if they are just going to nerf classes across the board without any consideration that a spec functions completely defferent in pvp than it does outside of pvp.
Want to thank Abombanation for attempting to reach Holinka, and want to thank Holinka for taking this topic and tanks viability into consideration.

Currently, all tanks damage is now pathetic - with the recent nerfs to damage in PvE that impacted PvP, there is nothing tanks can do now. Our damage was very poor before, but now it's just disgustingly bad - honestly.

Some talents are also beyond words.
Example:
Blood for Blood
"Heart Strike damage increased by 50%, but costs 10% of your total health."

Why on earth would our main resource generator cost 10% of our maximum health for only 50% increase of damage. Hitting 25K (maximum on plate) is horrendus, but for it to hit 37K for 10% of our maximum health is even more absurd. Still, if it was reduced to 3%of our maximum health - it would still not be worth it as the damage is pitful.

Don't get me wrong, I like talents that cost something. However talents like these should be risky to use but rewarding if pulled off correctly. If I use this, I should be hitting fairly hard, but I would also have to be careful so that I don't get switched or bursted.
Let's keep the conversation rolling on this topic and tweet @WarcraftDevs at least one time today about the issue. Let's get this fixed.
09/22/2016 06:04 PMPosted by Mailmanmax
Most tanks played tanks in PvP because they were powerful. Now that tanks got nerfed back in line, you are left with tanks who will continue to tank because they enjoy the playstyle and class fantasy, not because they are FotM rollers.

FotM rollers / fairweather fans do not deserve any "refund". Just move on to the next FotM like you always do.


I play tank because I like to be survivable. I dont care if I can't kill anyone. I like to harass, support, and FC. But I cant do any of that now because I cant survive long enough.
Good post Rolent. Miss hanging out in Durotar with you since my xfer. Glad to see you are still playing.
They will need to be careful in how they want to incorporate tanks in PvP as to not make them OP or to make a DPS or healer too hard to kill via redirecting damage.

Furthermore, tanks should not be created equal. If they all deal roughly the same amount of damage and are roughly as tanky as the other, it would break class fantasy and the idea of strengths and weaknesses.
How about fury feeling like you're dual wielding wet noodles?
They will need to be careful in how they want to incorporate tanks in PvP as to not make them OP or to make a DPS or healer too hard to kill via redirecting damage.

Furthermore, tanks should not be created equal. If they all deal roughly the same amount of damage and are roughly as tanky as the other, it would break class fantasy and the idea of strengths and weaknesses.


If they do not do well in balancing tanks to be tanks, they can always make them a sort of DPS.
09/23/2016 06:44 AMPosted by Zarvardios
If they do not do well in balancing tanks to be tanks, they can always make them a sort of DPS.


I believe they can do well with tank balancing, it's just a matter of looking at key variables such as:

  • Health
  • Damage
  • Mitigation
  • Sustain
  • Mobility
  • CC
  • Outside variables would be healers and CC that are not your own. So if you're a Blood DK, I think it is safe to assume Blood DK's have the worst mobility among tanks but maybe their mitigation shouldn't be as high as a Prot Pally for example. Therefore, Blood DK should have a higher health pool, but not so high that it equals the damage mitigation of a Prot Pally and to make up for being less mobile and less "tanky" we can do more damage.

    Sustain should probably be as relative to their mitigation as possible as we don't want to be a nuisance if your team happens to have 3-4 healers which is one problem to solve.

    I know I've always liked the idea of running flags, sitting bases and intercepting to make the enemy team re-think their strategy instead of face-rolling. Holinka will need to find the ratios that make the tank specs stand out from each other as well as solve the problems tanks could impose if one side has too many healers and I think we could be golden, but maybe my hopes are too high?
    Monk has 2 incredible pvp specs and you picked the tank spec. Sorry bro but that's on you.
    I just like the idea of tanks not queing for heroic till they fix the tanks in pvp.
    I think all tanks should do that lol cause everyone should be able to play both pvp and pve. It's stupid to just kill a tank role in pvp. And I have never seen Guardian Druid out dps any class but their dps got nerf, which made me laugh. What would be funny is if one dps class become too OP and blizz does 25% nerf to all dps class as hot fix, just like how they fixed tanks :)

    P.s. Best part of playing hunters back in the days were BM and turning big red killing machine for 12 seconds and then kite. Even the OP Lock and rogue hated us. Now hunter r soo broken :(
    Tanks need the tools to be effective at the following jobs:

    • Target calling
    • Peeling
    • Node defending
    • Node spinning
    • Flag carrying
    • Defensive utility


    Blizzard isn't completely terrible at fulfilling these roles, currently the %damage increase on taunt is kind of interesting, perhaps it can be buffed. Some tanks (prot paladins) have interesting defensive utility in the form of poison and aoe healing talents. DH is great at flag capping. But there's still a lot of work to be done.

    Tanks must not be DPS-with-training-wheels stapled on. This applies to both wPvP and sPvP.

    I'll say it again:

    Tanks must not be DPS-with-training-wheels stapled on. This applies to both wPvP and sPvP.
    09/23/2016 09:08 AMPosted by Ephie
    Tanks must not be DPS-with-training-wheels stapled on. This applies to both wPvP and sPvP.


    ^^ This exactly. They should have viable roles in PvP. As flag carriers, node guards etc. but they can't be unkillable and certainly shouldn't out dps ANY dps class.

    A dps attacking another dps should be a fairly quick fight while a dps attacking a tank should be a longer fight (maybe 50%-75% longer). Both should have a chance of winning based on skill and nothing more.

    This would make tanks viable because a longer fight means the tank's team mates have more time to come and help. Buying time in a node based game should be their role. Being harder to kill in a ctf game should be their role. Of course we all now what role they have in the 40 mans. SotA? Should be abolished but until then I guess they'd be good on defense.
    09/22/2016 01:22 PMPosted by Gankinyou
    tanks really had no place in pvp to begin with.
    that's not true. Tanks could have a place if blizzard actually looked at them from more than just a tank dps.
    This 25% just seems so lazy and overdone.

    I fully except the fact the I am swinging a wet noodle but single DPS should expect that if they attack me be prepared for BIO breaks and maybe a halftime show.

    My role in PVP was always the same.

    - Run Flags
    - Guard Flags
    - Call INC while the 3 DPS that just jumped me bang their heads on a WALL

    I never expected to kill anything but the price I payed for that is the ability to survive. Now I cannot kill anything and I am made of glass.

    Again this just seems broken.
    I'm not sure speccing into a tank spec and taking more damage than everyone else as a result makes much sense. Tanks are now evaporating, useless for flag carrying and node defending, as they can't outlast a DPS until assistance arrives, nor can they kill one on their own without dying.

    I think it needs a bit more thinking, this execution is haphazard at best - irresponsible at worst. Please re-think the damage taken change.
    09/22/2016 07:58 AMPosted by Rolentu

    We lost 10% total dmg, had our PvP templates dmg lowered on top of that and now we also take 25% more dmg.

    All three of these changes effect INSTANCED PvP where there was no possible way you could say with the lowered PvP template PLUS we do 15% less dmg to players already before these changes that this seems fair at all.


    Thanks for the post about this. We understand your concern. Tanks in PvP are a real design and balance challenge for us and it may take time for us to get it just right. Unlike other PvP games (Overwatch and Heroes of the Storm for example), tanks in World of Warcraft are not tuned or designed around tanking other players. World of Warcraft tanks are primarily designed to withstand the onslaught of raid bosses, which do considerably more damage than players. While tanks have a lot of active mitigation buttons, they also have a lot of passive mitigation and survivability. During beta, we applied a lot of spell multipliers to tank active mitigation abilities while leaving their passive mitigation alone for the most part. But this approach has a side effect that a tank's active mitigation buttons don't feel like they're doing anything in PvP.

    The 25% increased damage from players is our first attempt at decreasing tank passive mitigation in PvP. Consequently, we will be relaxing or removing many of the spell multipliers we've made to tank mitigation abilities. That is a change we'll be making alongside the class team's upcoming tuning changes.

    We're often asked, "what is your vision for tanks in PvP?" First, if you enjoy playing a tank, we want you to feel like you can provide value to your team in some way. But, we don't want that value to be "I can never die." A tank should be harder to kill then a DPS, but not by a wide margin. Likewise, a tank should do less damage than a DPS (and preferably far less burst damage) but not damage you can simply ignore. We want a tank to be able to go into an arena with their friends, compete, have fun, and earn rewards. We're much more hesitant to say we want tanks to be viable in arenas at the highest level. However, in rated battlegrounds, we would very much like to see tanks at the highest level, not only as flag carriers or point defenders, but as target callers and frontline disruptors. We think that is a fun place for tanks to live in PvP.

    We don't think we've arrived at this vision by any means and it may take some time and iteration before we do. We appreciate your impassioned feedback and hope you'll continue to give PvP a try on your tank. Thanks!
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