Fury Community Feedback

General Discussion
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Here we are again, bringing up Warrior DPS specs. This time however the Warrior Community(Thanks everyone from the Warrior section, MMO-Champion, and the Warrior Discord for feedback) has recognized that Fury is in dire need of help. In week 1 of Emerald Nightmare, Fury was one of the lowest specs in raid content. We received our tuning pass which was a pittance of a buff somewhere between 3-5% - the problem is, that since Old War was nerfed by 33%, and since most other classes recieved a similar or in some cases a significantly better buff, we ended up in the same exact spot, right there at the bottom of the charts.

This isn't complaining about sim data, this is drawing conclusions based on real world log data. Constructive feedback is constantly asked for, here it is - and nobody can say we didn't try.


Juggernaut - Increase buff duration to 12-15 seconds. Decrease maximum stack count to ~20 and increase per stack damage to 10%
The current duration at 6 seconds is far too short for realistic use in a raid setting. Mechanics can and do happen sub 20%, and losing juggernaut stacks is a massive dps loss. A few quick examples that would cause this would be Renferal Feeding Time, Ursoc charge on you, or Nythendra rot. We shouldn't be punished so harshly for playing correctly.

In progression right now I'm lucky if I get over 20 stacks, when farm rolls around, I'll probably only get around half that. Juggernaut gets dramatically weaker as content ages - right now it's significantly weaker than Arms execute, in a few months Fury will be practically left in the dust. In addition Juggernaut is almost entirely useless on 5 man bosses, execute phase is simply too short for Juggernaut to do any significant amount of damage.

Furious Slash - Increase damage by ~100%
Furious Slash may not be used much, but boy would it sure be nice if our single target filler did at least as much damage as Whirlwind on a single target. I think it was forgotten that off-hand attacks deal 50% damage.

Taste for Blood - Increase stack duration to 20s, increase bonus crit chance per stack to 25%, Whirlwind hitting 2+ targets also triggers Taste for Blood
I think Furious Slash usage was greatly overestimated when initially designing the ability, the duration is so short right now that the stacks are equally as likely to fall off before BT has a chance to consume them, as the effect to actually work. In addition, very rarely do players reach more than 1 stack before it either falls off or gets consumed, and as such 15% is far too low to have a meaningful impact. On the issue of Whirlwind, it's entirely intended to replace Furious Slash in any cleave scenario, so should it not also proc the same benefits? On 2+ targets if FS received a buff and did the same amount of damage as WW per target, WW would still be the more efficient ability due to at least twice the damage, while also cleaving your next BT/Rampage, so does it not make sense for TfB on 2+ targets to reflect that intention?

Enrage - Reduce damage taken to 20% base, 15% with Warpaint
An extra 30% damage taken might have been acceptable in a time when BT was a 5% heal, we had significantly more HP while enraged, and the Bloodcraze trait was much stronger - but now that time has passed. It does not feel good to play perfectly and still look at log after log where I'm holding the #1 spot below the tanks in damage taken. Incidentally the 30% damage taken makes Warpaint a mandatory talent in raiding even when I would like to have the utility of one of the other two talents.

Odyn's Champion - Buff CD reduction back to 2s per ability, Buff from 20% chance on Rampage to 1.0 rppm for more consistency
Odyn's Champion really is a weak trait, the only reason it's taken first is because of Helya's Wrath, and the other fairly good minor traits in the middle row leading up to it. In its current state at a 20% proc chance on Rampage with 25% haste you can achieve 5 abilities and thus 5 seconds seconds off CDs within the proc window. This amounts to around 3.5 seconds off your CDs per minute on average. For a gold trait, this is extremely lackluster. The new numbers would net around 10s/minute on average, and with a change back to rppm we'd see much more consistent procs, and not half a fight with none, and then 8 back to back. I assumed the whole reason the rppm system was designed was to get rid of clunky complete RNG mechanics like % chance.

Rage of the Valarjar - Increase chance to proc from 10% on Rampage/Execute to 1.0 rppm
Contrary to Odyn's Champion, Rage of the Valarjar is a decently potent buff, after all it's around half the effectiveness of the T17 Fury set bonus. The problem is - it just doesn't proc enough, or consistently enough to feel rewarding. Rage having a % chance to proc off of Rampage AND Execute presents the unique problem that it has a rather low proc rate above 20%, but once execute phase starts(With Massacre, since that is the go to talent right now) the chance that you'll proc Rage increases significantly, around twice as much on average. I'd much rather see a more consistent proc rate with rppm over an oddly skewed rate that will only indirectly nerf the trait as kill times decrease and execute is shorter. We already have enough pseudo execute mechanics, I'd rather help out the upper 80% of the rotation.

To Conclude
I don't want Fury to be #1, tippy top spec, but I do want to be a viable choice when my guild gets around to stepping into Mythic. I've heard story after story of players who are being told to swap to Arms or sit when entering into Mythic progression. This isn't guilds being nasty, it's a logical thing to do - after all we're nearly the worst spec in the game, with only Frost mages who are HFC Survival hunter tier right now consistently below us; add on that we're inherently taking more damage and thus using more mana and it's a fairly easy choice to make. When you have 20 slots, and more than 20 people to fill them, you have to choose what players will have the highest chance of downing bosses. I want Fury to have a fighting chance at being one of those 20.
Inner rage should be baseline as it is so essential to the smooth flow of the spec its not even funny.
Changes need to be made. If these are all the right ones, I'm not 100% sure, but then again thats not my job. I just know as it sits the Enrage mechanic is clunky, Rampage does no damage, and it fights against Juggernaut. The other golds have low proc rate. And on top of that the Enrage/Mastery mechanic makes PvP just about 0 fun as Enrage falls off before you get much of a chance to do anything with it.

The class just needs a refinement, things don't jive together. I think all the abilities are there, just they need to be tweaked to work together. It all feels very clunky as it sits.
Lots of good stuff in here, hope we don't get overlooked in the next couple weeks here and beyond in 7.1. Here are my thoughts on Fury.

Shorter term:

-Buff single target damage by 5-10%. Fury is lagging behind heavily on single target, while it shouldn't be top tier ST, Fury's ST is detrimental and the mythic logs show it. Despite many mythic fights being extremely AoE heavy, Fury is still the worst performing spec. Why? It does crap single target damage. Sure, it can burst for 800k+ in the first 10s with Odyn's Fury and then you cry as it drops down to 150k only to burst back up to 300k and eventually even out at some subpar amount.

-Lower Enrage to 15% damage amp baseline and make warpaint lower it to 10%. At least pick a manageable number, 30% is too much. This makes the spec either OP or UP in both pvp or pve. In beta, Fury had so many advantages to offset that crippling 30% so it was OP. Those were all nerfed, and now Fury's cripple mechanic overwhelms the minute self-healing it gets and the increased HP. If the 30% amp is here to stay, Fury damn well should be a top tier damage dealer, but that's dumb design imo. This change also opens up the talent tier warpaint is on for more options, right now 100% of the time you take warpaint.

-Up the artifact trait proc rates and the stack duration on Juggernaut. Fury has one of the coolest artifacts on paper, but in actuality, the golden dragons are completely awful. Odyn's and Rage never proc, you'll be lucky to get 1 in a sustained encounter. Out in the world doing quests? You'll be lucky to get 1 in an hour. Juggernaut is cool in theory, but execute's base damage is so low as the tradeoff and guess what happens? The ability ramps up far too slowly (and will never come close to stacking up to the max of 99, you'll be lucky to get 20) and falls off. Nearly every fight has movement, target switching, or a phase change that just causes it to fall off. Every Fury golden dragon is supremely awesome on paper, but supremely underwhelming and disappointing when you sit down and play.

-Change Enraged Regeneration to a 1 minute CD. This is a must if we get no changes at all. Fury has the most punishing glass cannon mechanic in the game but doesn't have the tools to deal with it. Whereas someone like a rogue lacks passive mitigation, they have a ton of defensive options and stealth to deal with threats. Fury lacks passive mitigation thanks to enrage, and has no defensive options aside from this 2 minute CD that only negates the inherent -30% and gives a nice heal (not a 2minute CD heal) that hinges on you being able to attack. Hell, this could be balanced even as a 45s CD, it's cooldown simply does not reflect it's power especially when considering that it is the only defensive ability given to a spec with very weak passive survivability.

Long term: Ditch the enrage glass cannon, self-damage amp mechanic. The fury warrior class fantasy should be a relentless berserker that gets harder to kill while enraged, not easier lol. What kind of a warrior is a glass cannon?

tldr: Reduce the punishing impact of the enrage mechanic slightly, buff single target damage output by a bit, and buff the proc rates on some of the cool golden dragon artifact traits. In the long term, revisit the enrage self-damage amp mechanic entirely.
Let's keep this on the first page guys. We need to do everything we can to draw attention to this thread (but not in a negative way).

Be persistent but not rude or obnoxious.
Something has got to give, fury feels so skewed at the moment. Take extra % damage for what? when in higher end game content it turns you into a liability and the sad part is there doesn't feel like there is any real trade off for that. We don't even come close on single target fights compared to other classes, and we can burst aoe once a minute for quite a lot and then watch the meters while choking back tears as we slip back into mediocrity. My point is fury feels very high risk and low reward as it stands now.
I feel that fury warriors were designed to be a type of glass canon, but trouble is we're all glass and no cannon.

I am no longer playing mine for the first time since BC because the constant dying became very unfun for me very fast. I don't mind a class that is more difficult to manage, in fact I'm all for a challenge, but when things go wrong on a fury warrior there is nothing difficult or easy you can do regain control of the situation. You can really just burn things down fast as possible and hope that somehow, if you're lucky, everything dies before you do.
I decided not to go Fury this expansion mainly because I really didn't feel like being squishier than a mage.
Bumping to the top. Changes are needed.
These are excellent suggestions, Fury currently is sub par and non competitive compared to other melee classes.

We need a small single target buff, and a rethink of our increased damage taken debuff to be viable for mythic raiding.

My biggest issue is in fights where we take constant damage and can not be fully topped off, our extra health pool does not make up for 20% extra damage taken, especially with hard hitting mechanics.
I agree with a lot of the points. And I think Fury is close to being good, but right now, it is not.

Of the pieces of the rotation that feel really out of place is Furious Slash. It doesn't feel like it has a place in the rotation. In fact, it feels like a sucker bet. Hmmm, everything is on CD... should I hit Furious Slash? No dont do it! Furious Slash feels like... poke enemy in tummy and tickle them.

TLDR: Please rename Furious Slash to Curious Poke. Hey you still there? Poke.
+1 for Haveth.

These changes are actually really sound. Increasing dmg on furious slash would definitely be well deserved and the reduced cd's help make the spec feel more active and engaging while increasing dps. WW activating Taste for Blood is also very appropriate imo.

I also agree baseline 20% dmg taken opens up build diversity as discussed in warrior forums.

I'd still like to see a dmg increase on Rampage of 15%-20%.

@Haveth, what do you think about adding an increase to the heal on Bloodthirst from 4% to 5%? Currently at 4% we are 1.1% p/sec where most other classes are at 1% p/sec. I think for sustainability due to % dmg taken the extra 1% would be very helpful. I also feel if people got wind we got a healing buff and slight % dmg taken nerf, they would be more likely to let us join raids/groups.
The actual flow of the spec rotation wise isn't the worst to me. However, with that being said, the class is behind. There is no doubt. Things in raid are killing me an not others. Makes us look bad. Not to mention the fact that if you guys want us to use group finder, it is almost IMPOSSIBLE to find a group that doesn't decline a fury warrior. And I get it. I know there's a lot of melee out there as well. But why would I take a fury warrior in my group? We are a bit of a liability and that liability needs to be addressed.
- Enrage incoming damage 20%. 10% with Warpaint Talent.
- Enrage output damage increased 5-10%.
- Victory Rush returned.
Of course i agree with pretty much all of these suggestions, Juggernaut in particular is in drastic need of being changed. Sadly i think changing stuff like Juggernaut will not be happening until 7.1.

Fury is in such a weak place in raids right now that we can't wait until 7.1 for buffs, we need something right NOW. Our single target is what is severely lacking, so how do we fix that? Well you could buff Raging Blow, since that's a pure single target ability, but you'd need to buff by something like 20% and Raging Blow already hits pretty hard as it is and is already our best attack. I feel buffing it by such an amount would be problematic. So what else can you buff?

Furious Slash. Now, Furious Slash has a very bad reputation among the warrior community for just how awful of an ability it is, and although i agree it is awful i do not share the same mentality as the rest of our community that it's outright garbage. Furious Slash serves a purpose, and that purpose is it's a single target filler attack that helps buff Bloodthirst. The problem is that it's just so weak and does too little damage. I did not design this spec obviously so i could be wrong, but to me when i look at this spec i look at Furious Slash and i look at Whirlwind and i think "okay, so Furious Slash is what you use for your filler attack when single target, and Whirlwind is what you use for filler on multiple targets". Makes sense, right? This is not the case though, Furious Slash is so weak that your brain wants you to use Whirlwind as your filler always cause it does better damage, and because the buff from Furious Slash is so negligible.

The solution to this is to simply buff Furious Slash's damage so that you actually WANT to press it as your single target filler. This would require a hefty buff though, the OP suggested buffing it by 100%, i'm no math guy so i'm not sure if that would be overkill or not but the buff requirement is definitely around there. Like i said, it needs quite a hefty damage increase, but i feel this is the correct choice for a hotfix buff for us. Giving it a damage buff so it actually gives us a decent dps increase would be wonderful, and since we'll be wanting to press it every chance we can then the Bloodthirst buff might actually become noticeable and only further help increase our damage via Enrage uptime.

We definitely require some more in depth changes for sure though, but as i said i doubt these would come before 7.1 at the earliest.
They definitely missed the mark on fury warrior. Take the most damage and do the least, not sure what they were going for class fantasy wise.

In WoD I played arms for awhile and then switched to Fury because it was the better PvE spec. With Artifact Power, it's much harder to switch and puts a bigger light on Spec balance.
Yes there needs to be changes made.
Juggernaut definitely needs a duration increase.
Great thread! You have my support.
Agree with just about everything in here, Too many talents are forced on us in order to have smooth gameplay, and be able to do any sort of real damage.

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