@Outlaw Rogues

General Discussion
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10/18/2016 12:38 PMPosted by Xanatu
10/18/2016 12:32 PMPosted by Tralil
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So two things: If he is talking about the beta roll the bones, that was terrible design. Many of the buffs were so bad, rogues rerolled for only true bearing LOL. However, I think he is talking about before the hotfixes that nerfed the artifact traits. The increased energy cost to roll the bones mainly.

Yeah I figured he meant the pre-nerf fatebringer, but that wasn't really RTB. A reduced energy cost would be nice QOL but realistically probably not a big deal; figure even if you reduced it by 10 per roll, you only, ON AVERAGE, only have to roll 3 times before you get a 2/3/6, so over the course of a minute you save maybe 30-35 energy? Nice but not a huge chunk. Would probably FEEL quicker though.


I hate to sound so simple minded, but you dont need the reduced energy until you do. It's a snowballing effect, when you roll very well and get two buffs right away, the energy increase doesn't matter, you're swimming in energy and combo points.

However, when you get stuck on terrible rolls, you will feel every single 50 energy saber slash. When you are stuck on a grand melee, you will curse the energy increase to roll the bones. Thats the issue, when its good it doesn't matter, like you mention.

But when the rotation goes sour, you feel stuck in slow motion. While you sit there auto attack and glaring at the slowly filling energy bar. The tank is dying and the healer is running oom. You can't do anything to help aoe down the pack of trash to help.
10/18/2016 12:48 PMPosted by Xhd
So its 1pm blizzard time...are devs done with their lunch break to grace us with their feedback?


Well, Ornyx usually posts late. I don't expect anything until 5pm on, PT. I do hope he pops in regardless if he was updated or not.
Not holding my breath. Fix outlaw. Period.
10/18/2016 12:58 PMPosted by Tralil
10/18/2016 12:38 PMPosted by Xanatu
...
Yeah I figured he meant the pre-nerf fatebringer, but that wasn't really RTB. A reduced energy cost would be nice QOL but realistically probably not a big deal; figure even if you reduced it by 10 per roll, you only, ON AVERAGE, only have to roll 3 times before you get a 2/3/6, so over the course of a minute you save maybe 30-35 energy? Nice but not a huge chunk. Would probably FEEL quicker though.


I hate to sound so simple minded, but you dont need the reduced energy until you do. It's a snowballing effect, when you roll very well and get two buffs right away, the energy increase doesn't matter, you're swimming in energy and combo points.

However, when you get stuck on terrible rolls, you will feel every single 50 energy saber slash. When you are stuck on a grand melee, you will curse the energy increase to roll the bones. Thats the issue, when its good it doesn't matter, like you mention.

But when the rotation goes sour, you feel stuck in slow motion. While you sit there auto attack and glaring at the slowly filling energy bar. The tank is dying and the healer is running oom. You can't do anything to help aoe down the pack of trash to help.

Doesn't sound simple at all. That's why I was saying, even if the numbers wouldn't reflect this as a huge DPS increase, I think it'd be a BIG QOL change for us. It wouldn't feel so crappy to reroll.
Posting here only to give support to my fellow Rogues.

I made a suggestion a while ago that Roll the Bones should always roll 2 buffs. Yes, I do know that part of the excitement of playing Outlaw is the chance to roll 6 buffs, but let's be honest: the frustration of rolling 1 buff over and over outweighs the enjoyment of rolling 6 buffs. Plus, it's the very possibility of rolling 6 buffs that made Blizzard nerf us to begin with. As the OP said, "we had to be nerfed because of what we might do, without accounting for what we usually do, and that's do average DPS with occasional moments of pure glory."

Of course, if we always rolled 2 buffs, people would still re-roll to try to fish the perfect combination of True Bearing and Shark Infested Waters. That's why I think Roll the Bones should have a 10 seconds cooldown (similar to Symbols of Death) and roll in a Markov chain, to make it circle thru all possible combinations before repeating itself (I dunno if it can be done with the WoW Tech).

I don't have the numbers, but to always roll 2 buffs is probably a DPS loss, so a reversal of the RT nerf should accompany those changes.
10/18/2016 08:41 AMPosted by Friedchikin
10/18/2016 08:31 AMPosted by Shaden
...

The stats and logs disagree with you. And any person actually playing the spec would have to admit that the swing in DPS potential is weighted heavily on the low end. Sure there are lucky players out there, but they are statistical anomalies.

Yall aren't doing your rotations right. It's not nearly as bad as the people in this thread make it sound. Some of yall are talking about rerolling until you get two every time, that's not what you're supposed to be doing. You have to use your !@#$ing brain on this rotation, you can't just hurrdurr reroll for 2 every single time. And sometimes even when you get two, it may be better to find other ones depending on cds. Just stop playing like a damn robot following an algorithm and be flexible.


You are not saying anything that we don't already know and that has been posted here many many times
If the comments directed at hunters are anything to look at, we should strictly be approaching this from a numbers perspective for the time being. Wide changes to RTB etc would need to be balanced for weeks; a flat damage buff or energy reduction would be a much quicker fix to what ails us.
Waiting for this response is kinda like waiting for a good roll .
10/18/2016 02:30 PMPosted by Shyfty
Waiting for this response is kinda like waiting for a good roll .


lol! Best response in here by far rofl.
::Chews on fingers::
I think there have been a lot of thoughtful response (and of course other responses too) in both this mega thread, and other threads located in the rogue forums.

I personally prefer Outlaw (formerly Combat) play-style, to the play style of the other specs. I've raided as the other specs, but I've always found Outlaw/Combat more fun.

I also used to be in one of the top 10 man guilds back when that was a thing, but am extremely casual now after a couple years off trying to decide if I want to dip my toe back into a raid schedule again--I pushed hardcore content and have gotten top 5 world parses before, but play more casually now.

To me here is the state of Rogue, which for me is mostly a state of problems, with a short list of pros below:

Problems:

Current

--RtB, while very interesting to me for a variety of reasons, is not as fun to play as it should be. I want to be able to have all of those buffs and fish through them for various situations--by all accounts most of the top world kills of Cenarius featured Rogues fishing for True Bearing to reduce cloak CD so they could soak all the roots. So while I love the potential utility that gives me in an overly stripped down tool kit from past expacs, the implementation overall is lackluster--it should not be possible to roll 1 buff an infinite number of times in a row--no matter how improbable this is, I had fight that I rolled 12 single rolls in a row.

Possible Solutions: (some of these yoinked from others in this thread or elsewhere)

--weighted dice of some kind: This could take many forms. One would be simply that after one roll the odds rolling one again drops considerably, or perhaps the odds of rolling 3-6 jumps considerably, or both.
--ability to roll a 4 or a 5 included.
--some ability, like rolling a dot, where any roll could be refreshed if rolled again under some time threshold--say refreshed under 7 seconds, automatically refreshes current buffs and adds the remaining time to the roll.

Conclusion of RtB--I love the variety, and god I love getting a "Yahtzee" or "Jenga" (when I'm having a beer and running mythics with friends and forget the names of games), but rolling a one, 12 times in a row, is just miserable. Pre-nerf even that wasn't so bad, i had enough energy to reroll a couple times and wouldn't get crushed by energy starvation, but the nerf really allowed all of us to see down to the mechanic much more energy starved than we were before, and what's down there isn't pretty if it isn't covered up.

--Medicore Tool Kit now.

Smoke Bomb stripped, shiv stripped, combat readiness stripped, mass stealth, dismantle, evasion (I realize riposte replaced, but it's not the same), poison utility, all stripped,

Possible Solutions:

Make a talent, or make it pve area only way we can get our kit of tools back. The smoke bomb was ok for the 10% damage reduction, but it was even better and I would using it on CD in mythics right now for the ability to create LoS scenarios for my party. Rogues are crafty buggers, give us tools to use, even if we can't have all of them in PvP.

--Lackluster Artifact/Legendaries/Adrenaline rush global CD issues

Blunderbuss? Adrenaline rush cd reduction? Increasing damage of Between the Eyes? There are so many "meh" talents in our artifact it's yawn inspiring.

Plus, the whole spec suffers from adrenaline energy overcapping issues due to the GCD.

Solution--

New Artifact options: increase hit chance, we miss sooooo much. Other suggestions are littered through this and other threads.

Take things off the GCD during Adrenaline rush so the better the player is, the more they can take advantage of AR, or something so that our burst can really be a burst that takes full advantage. If you're going to give us the RNG of a fire mage, let us have the burst potential of one, and the chance to mess it up and blow it out of the water accordingly.

--Outlaw Scaling vs. other spec.

--Solution, math. Looking forward to the next 2-3 tiers this expac possibly, you're going to have to buff outlaw again to stay competitive with Sub. Work this out a little better somehow so our secondary stat priorities lead to better scaling. I mean, versatility is our #1 secondary, which is great for survivability, but meh for scaling.

Other issues in game in general--

Inter-dependencies. They are the meat of this game, the beauty of it.

Raiding inter-dependences are what you're now discussing bringing back so that every raid needs all classes. You just took that out by removing buffing, which was only one way of being viable. Raid cooldowns, stripped, etc. Now you're grasping to bring all of that stuff back. Ugh!

Gearing Interdependencies--the gear stat reforging might have gone too far, but really, removing the enchants, gems, belt buckles, leg armors, etc. Why? Those are interdependencies you removed, then didn't replace. Now professions are borked except Alchemy. Is that a surprise to you all?

Professions, Alchemy is only truly great profession--and really, the 3 star reward is bringing back proccing of pots/flasks, which you stripped out of the game previously when removing specs, except--they're still there on the professions page, just not active! Come on guys.

Make professions, make economic interdependencies interesting again. Make Gearing stuff interesting again--remember the old gem socket bonuses? That is a neat place to begin.

Make it so that there are gearing synergies, colors of gems, plus type of leg armor, plus type of ring enchant, equals synergy.

This is already a wall of text, but I love this game, and I want to see you guys over there who are the caretakers of it realizing what my class, and the vibrant life of this game needs--when you strip interdependent systems, it's like algebra, you have to balance the equation. You guys are like subtracting on one side, not adding anything back, realizing the remainders don't add up and are now scratching your heads trying to figure out why.
FYI - I didn't forget about this, and I've sent questions to the development team; waiting for those answers to come in now.

I'll post what I get as soon as I see it!
10/18/2016 03:01 PMPosted by Ornyx
FYI - I didn't forget about this, and I've sent questions to the development team; waiting for those answers to come in now.

I'll post what I get as soon as I see it!


Thanks for the update.
10/18/2016 03:01 PMPosted by Ornyx
FYI - I didn't forget about this, and I've sent questions to the development team; waiting for those answers to come in now.

I'll post what I get as soon as I see it!


Is it still gonna happen today?
10/18/2016 03:01 PMPosted by Ornyx
FYI - I didn't forget about this, and I've sent questions to the development team; waiting for those answers to come in now.

I'll post what I get as soon as I see it!


yesssss
10/18/2016 03:01 PMPosted by Ornyx
FYI - I didn't forget about this, and I've sent questions to the development team; waiting for those answers to come in now.

I'll post what I get as soon as I see it!


I hope some of the classes struggling actually will hear some things as well.
10/18/2016 03:01 PMPosted by Ornyx
FYI - I didn't forget about this, and I've sent questions to the development team; waiting for those answers to come in now.

I'll post what I get as soon as I see it!

::Continues to chew on fingers::
10/18/2016 03:17 PMPosted by Septicflesh
10/18/2016 03:01 PMPosted by Ornyx
FYI - I didn't forget about this, and I've sent questions to the development team; waiting for those answers to come in now.

I'll post what I get as soon as I see it!

::Continues to chew on fingers::

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