Current state of Shadow is unacceptable

Priest
10/08/2016 11:28 PMPosted by Gutrage
Shadow Priests are great right now, and they're in the best spot they have ever been.


The Icecrown Citadel patch would like to have a word with you.

Don't get me wrong, you still had to work a lot harder than, say, Arcane Mages to be up there at the tippy top, but Shadow wasn't awful before you got gear. It just got better. Like a spec should.

I'll reiterate something I said the other day, it's awesome that SPriests have the capability to do extremely well. It is NOT okay that the trek UP to that gear level is painful beyond measure.
10/09/2016 10:23 AMPosted by Kaiomi
The Icecrown Citadel patch would like to have a word with you.


Actually you mean the Cata pre-patch. Shadow Priests in ICC were not really overly amazing, they were middle tier until the pre-patch for Cata which saw us get a huge return on the pre-patch content with higher level gear. But that's just it, the pre-patch is a pre-patch in prep for the next expansion and not a marker for a class.

10/09/2016 10:23 AMPosted by Kaiomi
Don't get me wrong, you still had to work a lot harder than, say, Arcane Mages to be up there at the tippy top, but Shadow wasn't awful before you got gear. It just got better. Like a spec should.


Shadow was terribly weak without gear even back then, and shadow has always been a very gear heavy spec because of the interaction of haste and crit with dots. They ONLY time shadow was good with lower tier gear was TBC, when scaling didn't work well for us so dot damage was more frontloaded. In Kara up to SSC/TK we were top or close to it in dps at lower gear levels, but as other classes got better weapons and more haste/crit they severally outscaled us.

10/09/2016 10:23 AMPosted by Kaiomi
I'll reiterate something I said the other day, it's awesome that SPriests have the capability to do extremely well. It is NOT okay that the trek UP to that gear level is painful beyond measure.


This is a matter of opinion. As I leveled and got gear I have relatively no issues and felt the class performed well throughout my play experience. There were issues here and there, but the class as a whole to me has not felt bad.
10/08/2016 11:28 PMPosted by Gutrage
4) The final talent row isn't garbage, it's just that S2M is too great. It's so great, and it's amazing. If you are frightened of dying at the end of S2M, that's how you should be feeling. You should learn the fight so that you die only JUST after the boss dies. It should stay the way it is now, the other talents just need to be changed to have their own niche to excel at, like a single target buffing talent, a clustered AoE talent, or maybe a movement DPS ability.


The other two are completely lack luster. The only reason to pick Lotv is just because u don't want to pick s2m. In pvp the only option is s2m. Mind spike is meh in most areas. Our entire final tier needs changed,lotv should increase insanity gen and mind spike should just be gotten rid of. In regards to the void torrent argument, PvE isn't the only place this effects us, getting a cast off in arena in general is difficult let alone a 4s channel that can be interrupted. Saying u should pay attention to the bosses ability set to use it isnt a good argument, no other specs have to worry about that, why should we?
10/07/2016 02:39 AMPosted by Biraelenn
A big chunk of our Survivability comes from Sol. Seriously guy is a pocket healer and outdpses Zabra. TC do you have Sol already?


I can attest even in raids our survivability is still really good...doesn't really help offset all that's wrong though. Sure Sol helps with WCs but we're pretty good even without him.
Is one of the reasons why changes shouldn't be made really "Get DBM"?

That's lunatic and utterly undermines any serious thing you could possibly say here.

I should first note that I am not necessarily in favor of any buffs. Shadow priest feels a little squishy for me, but outside of that, it feels far better than my lock does generally speaking.

But to really say that the thing that should stop us from receiving buffs (or nerfs) is an addon... well, that's insane. Addons should supplement gameplay. They should not be a solution to class short comings. At the very, very least using "get an addon" for why a spell can't be buffed ultimately undermines your entire argument and further proves the point. You've effectively said that this spell requires such a burden of knowledge to use, you need to hope that some Lua-savy person will come to your rescue and write or maintain an addon so you can use it... come on...
Thanks for all the replies.

First of all, I don't get the eagerness of some to defend the current state of things. "Shadow can pull top DPS on certain bosses" seems like a non-argument. It doesn't change the fact that shadow is terrible at soloing until it gets geared, is inferior at AoE, has a mediocre final talent tier and that the artifact ability lacks flexibility. All of these issues require only very simple fixes which would not significantly alter shadow's already great single target potential and without making them overpowered in other regards either. And I won't be nice here: I feel that anyone claiming that the final talent row is fine is disagreeing for the sake of being contrarian. You cannot honestly think that mind spike and LotV are fine as is, and that forcing players to use StM, a "kill yourself" mechanic, is good design.

To the others, do keep in mind that they do have a point: Once you get past a certain gear level, shadow is good at soloing once more and they have great single target damage.

I do like the suggestion someone made to make the faceless one pet a talent.
10/07/2016 06:55 AMPosted by Quìntos
LotV: Actually I think that this talent is fine as is.

No, not really.
It is -slightly- better than picking no talent. For LotV to begin approaching "good" it needs to fill up that partial insanity bar when VF is activated. To catch up with S2M it would have to make VF castable at an even lower threshold.

LotV and Void Lord were obviously designed to go in tandem to be an alternate to chasing deep VF stacks, but the combo simply isn't good enough.
10/07/2016 02:35 PMPosted by Kaiomi
Don't forget that in order to be remotely decent dps you have to literally be a robot. And I do mean literally with the classical definition.

It is not possible to do even "good" dps (at least when compared to other similar specs) without the aid of crucial addons.

If you don't have an insanity tracker, you literally have to guess when to use certain abilities. A corollary to this that doesn't necessarily require an addon (though I'm sure one exists) is that you have to memorize how much insanity all of your abilities give.

If you don't have a dot tracker, you can't do ANY cleave or AOE worth mentioning.

You have to use a spell tracker to know when your insanity brings your Mind Blast/Void Bolt to certain CD breakpoints.

Can you do without those? Sure. But your DPS is going to be utterly pathetic compared to literally every other dps spec. You know, those other specs that don't HAVE to use addons just to do 200k dps in Mythic dungeon gear.


This simply isn't true. I don't want to say "get good" but using the default UI and your unit frame grants you most of the info you need. You can also fairly easily tab target mobs down. While it may be more complicated and clunkier than other classes it is definitely possible to do these things well without addons. Honestly, I'm not trying to be mean but i don't think shadow priest is the class for you.

But, I do agree if you are a fresh 110 with quest/normal dungeon gear, you don't stand much of a chance against more than 2 mobs regardless of addons and/or skill.

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