Blizzard devs, I urge you to remove AP lock

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10/13/2016 04:28 AMPosted by Porcovaca
10/13/2016 03:35 AMPosted by Deadthor
ah, another thread where people are too lazy/dumb to plan things out, do their research and enjoy the system

there are basically chokepoints where its retarded to push to the next rank without letting your AK catch up and make things viable. when you hit the point where you can do 10k AP EASY in one set of dailies, you dont have a reason to complain that you did the first 13 ranks of your artifact in a half hour

stop being entitled little brats


I've seen so much of this in this thread, it gets funny. People missing the whole point just to assume we complain simply are too stupid to understand how artifact knowledge works or too lazy to play the game.

Buddies listen to me, I have news for you. It's not that complex. You're not special for deciphering it.

As you can read in bold letters, AP is irrelevant. What is wrong is the fact that in order to keep a single other spec in the same level, you have to farm twice the amount of AP. 2x. 100% more. Dos, amigos.

Someone else claimed versatility (aka access to your own class) is an advantage to farm AP and the tax is fair. Lmao. Tell that to warlocks, mages, locks, hunters, rogues.

That aside, if it is indeed easier for you to farm AP as a tank or healer, first of all it has been like that for years. The reason for that is the lack of tanks and healers. Secondly, being easier to farm gear or finding teammates or whatever encourages players to try out and actively play those roles, which is a huge step towards balancing the community out.


Yes I am one of the people who understands what you are saying, and I am saying you are wrong. AP should be for the spec you use it for not the entire class. The gear grind got MUCH easier and this replaces it for the most part. At least the AP comes in an item so you can gather it as one spec and use it while in another. They could have made it worse and set it up so that you gain AP for the artifact you were using at the time you completed whatever it was that awarded it.
10/13/2016 03:28 AMPosted by Noç
10/13/2016 01:32 AMPosted by Cerebrias
...

Opinion =/ facts. Do some mythic or heroic raiding with artifact level 14 vs a level 36, huge diffrence.


This right here is the problem. You "want" the high end gear. You "want" the high end experience. You "want" the special things. But you're "not" willing to put in the time and effort to obtain it.

I am having to duel spec for my guild. Shadow as main, Holy as offspec. I am having to level my artifact weapon up. I'm 21/20 right now. I am putting in the effort to obtain the artifact power because I do want to be in the Mythic Raids. I do want to be in the Mythic +'s.

If you don't have a certain level of artifact, then you should not be setting your eyes on certain content. That is the "fact" you so elaborately pointed out. Just like a level 1 character is not going to be jumping into Emerald Nightmare.

You have a choice like the green poster stated. You either focus on 1 spec and level it as "quickly" as you can if that's what you want. Or, you focus on 2 or 3 and progress a bit slower but have more versatility. May take you a little longer to do the things you're wanting to do right now, but that was your choice.

This "I want it and I want it now" mentality is really detrimental to the gaming industry. 15 years ago if you got into a fender bender, you'd see if there was any damage and then shake hands and be on your way. Now days it's "MY NECK!". The same thing is happening inside of video games. Players want everything handed to them. They want the instant gratification. They want the cheat codes. It's why there are "Auto" levels in games like Geometry Dash. So that people get the gratifaction of completing a crazy impossible level without actually doing anything.

Either put in the time to accomplish your goal, or don't. Bejeweled is that way ->


I seriously cannot up vote this post enough. This is exactly how I feel.
10/13/2016 03:28 AMPosted by Noç
You have a choice like the green poster stated. You either focus on 1 spec and level it as "quickly" as you can if that's what you want. Or, you focus on 2 or 3 and progress a bit slower but have more versatility. May take you a little longer to do the things you're wanting to do right now, but that was your choice.


The time investment isn't that long. I know I get massively downvoted each time I link, but people have run the numbers and keeping an off-spec up to date is barely any effort at all, and won't even set you back that much :

http://blizzardwatch.com/2016/08/29/can-level-artifact-second-spec/
10/13/2016 06:11 AMPosted by Norgred
10/13/2016 03:28 AMPosted by Noç
...

This right here is the problem. You "want" the high end gear. You "want" the high end experience. You "want" the special things. But you're "not" willing to put in the time and effort to obtain it.

I am having to duel spec for my guild. Shadow as main, Holy as offspec. I am having to level my artifact weapon up. I'm 21/20 right now. I am putting in the effort to obtain the artifact power because I do want to be in the Mythic Raids. I do want to be in the Mythic +'s.

If you don't have a certain level of artifact, then you should not be setting your eyes on certain content. That is the "fact" you so elaborately pointed out. Just like a level 1 character is not going to be jumping into Emerald Nightmare.

You have a choice like the green poster stated. You either focus on 1 spec and level it as "quickly" as you can if that's what you want. Or, you focus on 2 or 3 and progress a bit slower but have more versatility. May take you a little longer to do the things you're wanting to do right now, but that was your choice.

This "I want it and I want it now" mentality is really detrimental to the gaming industry. 15 years ago if you got into a fender bender, you'd see if there was any damage and then shake hands and be on your way. Now days it's "MY NECK!". The same thing is happening inside of video games. Players want everything handed to them. They want the instant gratification. They want the cheat codes. It's why there are "Auto" levels in games like Geometry Dash. So that people get the gratifaction of completing a crazy impossible level without actually doing anything.

Either put in the time to accomplish your goal, or don't. Bejeweled is that way ->


I seriously cannot up vote this post enough. This is exactly how I feel.


Eh, your frustration is misguided. I don't have any issues working for it, in fact I have worked for it. I'm 21 at AK level 6. I just wanna have the same reward as other players for the same amount of work.
10/13/2016 06:18 AMPosted by Berith
10/13/2016 03:28 AMPosted by Noç
You have a choice like the green poster stated. You either focus on 1 spec and level it as "quickly" as you can if that's what you want. Or, you focus on 2 or 3 and progress a bit slower but have more versatility. May take you a little longer to do the things you're wanting to do right now, but that was your choice.


The time investment isn't that long. I know I get massively downvoted each time I link, but people have run the numbers and keeping an off-spec up to date is barely any effort at all, and won't even set you back that much :

http://blizzardwatch.com/2016/08/29/can-level-artifact-second-spec/


I'm fine with how long it takes. Not a problem at all for me.
Blizz fanboy checking in here - I hate AP and would gladly give back my Artifact for a decent BiS weapon farm and a legit talent tree. Also I'm salty about no legendary and feeling locked on to my main cause !@#$ it all if my alt gets it first... you can have those back too. Take them and re do it old school with a long quest chain so it feels like we accomplished some %^-* instead of handing them out like razor laced candies on Halloween. Good art and music tho mates :P
If I put all of the AP towards my next trait to my off spec, I would only be 3 traits behind on that other weapon.

Hadly putting alts/off-specs "massively" behind. Holy hyperbole.
10/13/2016 03:28 AMPosted by Noç
10/13/2016 01:32 AMPosted by Cerebrias
...

Opinion =/ facts. Do some mythic or heroic raiding with artifact level 14 vs a level 36, huge diffrence.


This right here is the problem. You "want" the high end gear. You "want" the high end experience. You "want" the special things. But you're "not" willing to put in the time and effort to obtain it.

I am having to duel spec for my guild. Shadow as main, Holy as offspec. I am having to level my artifact weapon up. I'm 21/20 right now. I am putting in the effort to obtain the artifact power because I do want to be in the Mythic Raids. I do want to be in the Mythic +'s.

If you don't have a certain level of artifact, then you should not be setting your eyes on certain content. That is the "fact" you so elaborately pointed out. Just like a level 1 character is not going to be jumping into Emerald Nightmare.

You have a choice like the green poster stated. You either focus on 1 spec and level it as "quickly" as you can if that's what you want. Or, you focus on 2 or 3 and progress a bit slower but have more versatility. May take you a little longer to do the things you're wanting to do right now, but that was your choice.

This "I want it and I want it now" mentality is really detrimental to the gaming industry. 15 years ago if you got into a fender bender, you'd see if there was any damage and then shake hands and be on your way. Now days it's "MY NECK!". The same thing is happening inside of video games. Players want everything handed to them. They want the instant gratification. They want the cheat codes. It's why there are "Auto" levels in games like Geometry Dash. So that people get the gratifaction of completing a crazy impossible level without actually doing anything.

Either put in the time to accomplish your goal, or don't. Bejeweled is that way ->


I wish I could upvoted this 1000x.

There are issues with Legion (tradeskill RNG and certain classes need help) but having to make hard choices and work for reward is not one of them. I barely play and have 20 on my heal and 17 on my enh weapons. I keep going with my AK research and know I'll get there eventually, and when I do get there, if I have the time for the high end raiding, there will be a group or guild needing a body.
Remember when multiple specs mean carrying around multiple sets?

Pepperidge farm remembers.
10/13/2016 04:28 AMPosted by Porcovaca
10/13/2016 03:35 AMPosted by Deadthor
ah, another thread where people are too lazy/dumb to plan things out, do their research and enjoy the system

there are basically chokepoints where its retarded to push to the next rank without letting your AK catch up and make things viable. when you hit the point where you can do 10k AP EASY in one set of dailies, you dont have a reason to complain that you did the first 13 ranks of your artifact in a half hour

stop being entitled little brats


I've seen so much of this in this thread, it gets funny. People missing the whole point just to assume we complain simply are too stupid to understand how artifact knowledge works or too lazy to play the game.

Buddies listen to me, I have news for you. It's not that complex. You're not special for deciphering it.

As you can read in bold letters, AP is irrelevant. What is wrong is the fact that in order to keep a single other spec in the same level, you have to farm twice the amount of AP. 2x. 100% more. Dos, amigos.

Someone else claimed versatility (aka access to your own class) is an advantage to farm AP and the tax is fair. Lmao. Tell that to warlocks, mages, locks, hunters, rogues.

That aside, if it is indeed easier for you to farm AP as a tank or healer, first of all it has been like that for years. The reason for that is the lack of tanks and healers. Secondly, being easier to farm gear or finding teammates or whatever encourages players to try out and actively play those roles, which is a huge step towards balancing the community out.


no, its stupidity. there are several points where it becomes completely inefficent to put ap into your primary because of the cost vs gain difference.

ITS DESIGNED THAT WAY

is it their fault you are too stubborn/stupid to realize that you should hold off until AK kicks your AP gains back up to something pretty good for the cost of the next point in the artifact? no, that would be a massive PEBKAC issue. they cant fix stupid
10/13/2016 06:03 AMPosted by Norgred
The grind for gear now is WAY easier then it ever used to be. The major items that need to be changed between specs are trinkets and that's really it. Everything else has main stats on it that change depending on spec. The secondary stats are the issues and those, while somewhat helpful, can be played around with.

Sorry but I am with Crepe on this. Gearing is simpler now then it ever was and the gearing issues have been replaced with Artifact Power. And even then that's a time gated thing.

I am quite happy they finally made choices have consequences. If you choose to work once spec then you should have a little more power then someone who focus on all their specs. In time you will be more powerful in them all as you dedicate time but don'r expect to be able to switch seemlessly between them at any time you want within the first 2 months of an expansion. At least you can go back in this game and reverse choices. In some games once you make a choice you are stuck with it.


The idea that gearing up off spec/alts is easier, and that "choices can/should have consequences" don't exactly mesh.

The fact that the Artifact Power and Artifact Knowledge grind did not exist prior to Legion is just that, IT'S A FACT. It has been a hurdle that has been added which is exclusive to this expansion.

The grind of questing/leveling, acquiring gear, etc, still exists for alts/off specs. That has not changed. As stated previously, this is even more prevalent given how weighted secondary stats are.
10/12/2016 01:19 AMPosted by Grandis
Remember when you needed an entire new set of gear to have a viable off-spec?


Most raid guilds got to a point where off spec gear is freely given to any member interested once everyone had their main spec pieces and the requisite enchants. Switching to off spec was usually as easy as hemming and enchanting the off spec pieces, and away you went.

And if you wanted to get a different class up to speed, the guilds I participated in and I am sure many others did alt raids on off nights, or would let you bring an alt on farm night.

Getting gear wasn't difficult, and it was usually fun, as you were playing the content you wanted to in the process. For instance, if I wanted to raid Firelands with a different class, I would grind heroic dungeons and farm valor for a week or two to get the requisite gear to raid Firelands with the alt group or the main group when the opportunity presented itself. That's all it took.
10/13/2016 08:06 AMPosted by Elizondo
10/12/2016 01:19 AMPosted by Grandis
Remember when you needed an entire new set of gear to have a viable off-spec?


Most raid guilds got to a point where off spec gear is freely given to any member interested once everyone had their main spec pieces and the requisite enchants. Switching to off spec was usually as easy as hemming and enchanting the off spec pieces, and away you went.

And if you wanted to get a different class up to speed, the guilds I participated in and I am sure many others did alt raids on off nights, or would let you bring an alt on farm night.

Getting gear wasn't difficult, and it was usually fun, as you were playing the content you wanted to in the process. For instance, if I wanted to raid Firelands with a different class, I would grind heroic dungeons and farm valor for a week or two to get the requisite gear to raid Firelands with the alt group or the main group when the opportunity presented itself. That's all it took.


Many guild did do that...but not after a month in. Besides, nothing is stopping you from doing that now and guess what, you get AP from doing things you would normally be doing anyway.

Also, I'm not going to criticize what you consider "fun", but grinding the same heroics over and over for something that will get replaced doesn't seem much different or better than doing some quests for something that you'll have the entire xpac.
Agreed, OP
Blizz devs, i urge you to keep the lock in.

10/12/2016 12:54 AMPosted by Porcovaca
every point you spend in another spec puts you behind in your main.

Mfw ppl overvalue AP.

Not saying it's not in the least bit important, but jeez, people. Lol.
I can get from rank 1-13 in less AP than it will take me to get from 22-23. As long as you keep doing your research, you won't be that far behind.
10/13/2016 08:23 AMPosted by Spy
10/13/2016 08:06 AMPosted by Elizondo
...

Most raid guilds got to a point where off spec gear is freely given to any member interested once everyone had their main spec pieces and the requisite enchants. Switching to off spec was usually as easy as hemming and enchanting the off spec pieces, and away you went.

And if you wanted to get a different class up to speed, the guilds I participated in and I am sure many others did alt raids on off nights, or would let you bring an alt on farm night.

Getting gear wasn't difficult, and it was usually fun, as you were playing the content you wanted to in the process. For instance, if I wanted to raid Firelands with a different class, I would grind heroic dungeons and farm valor for a week or two to get the requisite gear to raid Firelands with the alt group or the main group when the opportunity presented itself. That's all it took.


Many guild did do that...but not after a month in. Besides, nothing is stopping you from doing that now and guess what, you get AP from doing things you would normally be doing anyway.

Also, I'm not going to criticize what you consider "fun", but grinding the same heroics over and over for something that will get replaced doesn't seem much different or better than doing some quests for something that you'll have the entire xpac.


You have a valid point in the expansion only being two months old. However, it won't be long before it becomes a reality. Guilds are already selling Heroic carries.

You did make a point on my behalf. You argue that grinding heroics isn't any more fun or different than grinding AP. I agree, just that now we have to do both.

Right now I am left with the choice of continuing on with my Ele Shaman as weak as it is, switching specs and losing 21 levels worth of AP, or switching class, losing 21 levels worth of AP, and restarting the rep grinds and Suramar. I am torn between going back to WW monk and staying as Ele, and the only thing stopping me is what I listed above. If it were just a matter of farming gear, I would have switched already.
10/13/2016 08:06 AMPosted by Elizondo
10/12/2016 01:19 AMPosted by Grandis
Remember when you needed an entire new set of gear to have a viable off-spec?


Most raid guilds got to a point where off spec gear is freely given to any member interested once everyone had their main spec pieces and the requisite enchants. Switching to off spec was usually as easy as hemming and enchanting the off spec pieces, and away you went.

And if you wanted to get a different class up to speed, the guilds I participated in and I am sure many others did alt raids on off nights, or would let you bring an alt on farm night.

Getting gear wasn't difficult, and it was usually fun, as you were playing the content you wanted to in the process. For instance, if I wanted to raid Firelands with a different class, I would grind heroic dungeons and farm valor for a week or two to get the requisite gear to raid Firelands with the alt group or the main group when the opportunity presented itself. That's all it took.


So spend a week or 2 doing the same types of things but collect AP in addition?

Your main spec could be 23 and your offspec 20 at the same AP spend rate of having your main spec at 24 and your offspec at 0.

A lot of this sounds like having something to constantly work for on your main isn't liked. They'd prefer to "complete" the power increase on their main outside of raid night and then be able to get their offspecs into a similar "complete" state.
Artifact power is punishing because Blizzard doesn't get classes right. You're locking yourself into a spec that you have no clue how it will perform long term or even in the short term. Blizzard's idea of "bring the player, not the class" was great in theory but they completely and abjectly failed in attaining that.
10/13/2016 09:05 AMPosted by Sevenplagues
Blizzard's idea of "bring the player, not the class" was great in theory but they completely and abjectly failed in attaining that.

I don't think they will get it perfect but they will certainly get it better. It's a work in progress, always has been, always will be.

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