Explain 7.1 Warlock talent swap plz

General Discussion
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Demonic Skin should be base line.
Demonic circle should be base line.

Dark pact, be it base line or talent, one thing for sure it doesn't belong in CC or mobility talent tiers.

Our CC talents should be
Howl of Terror
Mortal Coil
Shadow Fury

As well our mobility talents should be
Demon Gate
Burning Rush
Demonic/Fel Leap (new version with minor visual updates) - all specs
Having DL act like goblin's rocket jump racial, including DL travels 10 to 15yards. With a 15 to 30 second CD.
10/17/2016 01:17 PMPosted by Gilloch
...because having demon skin and dark pact gives us too much survivability.

Well literally we need it, we have no escape and no interruption like other classes so
10/17/2016 01:17 PMPosted by Gilloch
...because having demon skin and dark pact gives us too much survivability.


Ion said they are trying to double down on strengths. After the change, it now begs the question.... what are warlock's strengths?

Tanky caster? Nope. Not any more.
Slow, immobile, average squishy clothy? Maybe.
10/17/2016 01:10 PMPosted by Mero
10/17/2016 12:05 PMPosted by Fappy

All I'm looking for is a why. Personally I really dislike the change because I'm probably going to be forced off of taking burning rush which is one of my favorite talents :(


Ok, I'll take a stab at it. Right, wrong, or indifferent, I'm pretty sure the thinking goes something like this:

Blizz considers it a design flaw when one talent in a row becomes so good relative to the other two that you would always take it, no matter what. Demon Skin was so good that players rarely took anything else - at least in a raiding environment.

Swapping the talent accomplishes two things: first, it opens players up to feeling like they can take advantage of more of the utility their class has to offer, because they no longer feel compelled to take Demon Skin.

Second, moving Demon Skin gives players the option the choose different play styles in terms of how they deal with damage: they can simply take a passive that makes them a little tougher all the time; they can take an on-use talent that makes them a lot tougher on a cool down; or they can choose to take a small amount of damage in order to move and simply avoid taking a lot of damage. All of these present interesting choices to the player, and each may have the opportunity to shine in different encounters.

Not saying I would have advocated for this change; just that I'm pretty sure this is how the devs are approaching it.

But by that same line of thinking how does that move towards making us "tanky" as they apparently want to going by the Q&A where we actually got them to talk a little bit? This change actually lowers our overall tankyness so while the logic makes sense in terms of why they're making the change it's at odds with the stated goal of "doubling down on our strengths", and in the case mentioned making us tanky.

Once again a design decision is being made, with no explanation, that appears to fly right in the face of what was stated as the intention of the class, and no clear reasoning beyond what people can piece together is stated. If they want to make the choices compelling, that's great, but it doesn't solve the fact they're not appropriately changing things to reflect the intention they already stated.
10/17/2016 01:07 PMPosted by Bomdanil
10/17/2016 12:14 PMPosted by Raalos
I'm hoping it is because they are making something else in the row baseline. Like Demon Skin is a permanent passive.

I also can't wrap my head around why they are removing Drain Life, yet Destro has multiple artifact traits centered around casting it....


The removal of drain life was reverted. I'm hoping it was given back to us because it's stupid as hell to balance us around a mana mechanic that requires killing ourselves, without also giving us a means to recover from using it, but that level of forethought would have prevented its removal in the first place.


They reverted the removal of drain life however they decided to nerf it as well....
Well, for what it's worth, fellow Destro locks, you can macro your imp's cauterize master with Unending Resolve. Around point 17 or so in your artifact progression, UR is on a 60 second cooldown - as is Dark Pact. I never remember to use cauterize on its own, so instead I now have an "oh excrement" button available about ever 30 seconds or so. And we still have the 10% reduction, so, eh...I'll miss the incredible survivability, but we will adapt and adjust, as we always do.
10/17/2016 01:17 PMPosted by Gilloch
...because having demon skin and dark pact gives us too much survivability.


Hahahahahahaha.... No. No it doesn't. Affliction has absurd survival because of how strong its drain life is due to artefact bonuses. Demonology and destruction does not have anywhere near affliction's self-sustain, especially in a raid environment where casting drain life is a last resort measure.

10/17/2016 01:25 PMPosted by Vuldanis
They reverted the removal of drain life however they decided to nerf it as well....


Putting vinegar in the sugar is the WoW team's SOP, especially if it's something they had their heart on before having it pointed out to them what an awful idea it was.
This basically just boils down to the perpetual problem of lack of communication and Blizzard's new 'changing things for the sake of change' mantra with warlocks.
10/17/2016 01:09 PMPosted by Xykor
The amount of people being baffled and having their minds blown from the randomness of their choices should be enough to warrant a response from Blizzard.

It really does seem like they don't care about anyone.

Seriously, I'm beginning to think they are so addicted to RNG that's how they determine what to buff, nerf, prune, change.
They won't explain it.

As a former lock main, blizzard doesn't care about locks anymore.
Got some answers from the development team on this.

The aim and ultimate goal of the swap is to create competition in the talent rows, with a secondary intent of adjusting tankiness and mobility overall. With this change (taking tuning into account), there should now be more interesting choices in some rows, instead of the usual feel of "mandatory-ness" that we've seen in this past cycle.

Demon Skin previously dwarfed its competition in nearly ever situation, and its combination with Dark Pact offered too much survivability.

With Demonic Circle, we heard the broad feedback about how it was missed when players had to opt-out of taking it because of better picks in its row. Now that it's lined up against more equally-powered and niche talents, we believe Demonic Circle will see more use overall.

Hope this answers some of your questions - I'm here for feedback and discussion on this. :)
10/17/2016 06:14 PMPosted by Ornyx
Got some answers from the development team on this.

The aim and ultimate goal of the swap is to create competition in the talent rows, with a secondary intent of adjusting tankiness and mobility overall. With this change (taking tuning into account), there should now be more interesting choices in some rows, instead of the usual feel of "mandatory-ness" that we've seen in this past cycle.

Demon Skin previously dwarfed its competition in nearly ever situation, and its combination with Dark Pact offered too much survivability.

With Demonic Circle, we heard the broad feedback about how it was missed when players had to opt-out of taking it because of better picks in its row. Now that it's lined up against more equally-powered and niche talents, we believe Demonic Circle will see more use overall.

Hope this answers some of your questions - I'm here for feedback and discussion on this. :)


so about that 1200 post outlaw thread?
10/17/2016 06:19 PMPosted by Xhd
10/17/2016 06:14 PMPosted by Ornyx
Got some answers from the development team on this.

The aim and ultimate goal of the swap is to create competition in the talent rows, with a secondary intent of adjusting tankiness and mobility overall. With this change (taking tuning into account), there should now be more interesting choices in some rows, instead of the usual feel of "mandatory-ness" that we've seen in this past cycle.

Demon Skin previously dwarfed its competition in nearly ever situation, and its combination with Dark Pact offered too much survivability.

With Demonic Circle, we heard the broad feedback about how it was missed when players had to opt-out of taking it because of better picks in its row. Now that it's lined up against more equally-powered and niche talents, we believe Demonic Circle will see more use overall.

Hope this answers some of your questions - I'm here for feedback and discussion on this. :)


so about that 1200 post outlaw thread?

I have some questions out to the dev team for Outlaws, but let's leave the Warlocks to their threads, yes?

1300* btw.

Below poster, see above.
how about those multiple DH and DK threads as well?
That would be wonderful, if not for survivability being the ONLY thing warlocks have left. Affliction might as well not exist, Destruction is barely middle of the pack, and demonology is so clunky that it makes the world's greatest klutz look graceful.

Hell, if the devs want to talk about "mandatory", explain the first talent row of Affliction, where Writhe in Agony is the ONLY talent worth taking for raids, or the last row where Soul Effigy, despite being a terrible, terrible talent designed to make Affliction warlocks want to bury Ulthalesh in someone's skull, is the de-facto talent choice.

EDIT: Look Ornyx, I really apologize if I came off harsh or rude here, but look at it from our point of view; not only are we and Affliction warlocks in particular, trailing far behind in damage, but this also impacts our vaunted 'tankiness'. To warlocks, this isn't seen as giving players a choice, it's the equivalent of holding us down and asking if we'd like to be stabbed through the kidneys, liver or stomach.

Unless the developers are willing to address warlock dps, and Affliction in particular which is one of the worst dps specs, then this design decision just drives the warlock playerbase more and more bitter.

I mean, what's the rationale for this, the Contagion nerf and the Compounding Horror nerf? Why is Affliction in particular being targeted? What about the more pressing concerns of Ulthalesh's niche golden dragon traits?
10/17/2016 06:23 PMPosted by Alzrian
That would be wonderful, if not for survivability being the ONLY thing warlocks have left


Sadly this is true.
10/17/2016 06:21 PMPosted by Ornyx
<span class="truncated">...</span>

so about that 1200 post outlaw thread?

I have some questions out to the dev team for Outlaws, but let's leave the Warlocks to their threads, yes?

1300* btw.

Below poster, see above.
WE WOULDN'T HAVE TO POST IN OTHER THREADS IF YOU YOU DIDN'T KEEP IGNORING OUR ROGUE THREADS.
10/17/2016 06:14 PMPosted by Ornyx
Got some answers from the development team on this.

The aim and ultimate goal of the swap is to create competition in the talent rows, with a secondary intent of adjusting tankiness and mobility overall. With this change (taking tuning into account), there should now be more interesting choices in some rows, instead of the usual feel of "mandatory-ness" that we've seen in this past cycle.

Demon Skin previously dwarfed its competition in nearly ever situation, and its combination with Dark Pact offered too much survivability.

With Demonic Circle, we heard the broad feedback about how it was missed when players had to opt-out of taking it because of better picks in its row. Now that it's lined up against more equally-powered and niche talents, we believe Demonic Circle will see more use overall.

Hope this answers some of your questions - I'm here for feedback and discussion on this. :)

I recall that a theme of warlocks this expac was to make it a tankier caster, why was our tankiness shoveled into one row?
10/17/2016 06:14 PMPosted by Ornyx
Got some answers from the development team on this.

The aim and ultimate goal of the swap is to create competition in the talent rows, with a secondary intent of adjusting tankiness and mobility overall. With this change (taking tuning into account), there should now be more interesting choices in some rows, instead of the usual feel of "mandatory-ness" that we've seen in this past cycle.

Demon Skin previously dwarfed its competition in nearly ever situation, and its combination with Dark Pact offered too much survivability.

With Demonic Circle, we heard the broad feedback about how it was missed when players had to opt-out of taking it because of better picks in its row. Now that it's lined up against more equally-powered and niche talents, we believe Demonic Circle will see more use overall.

Hope this answers some of your questions - I'm here for feedback and discussion on this. :)


I dont understand this, when dks had death's advance its too much mobility, and now locks apparently are too durable with both dark pact and demon skin? really? wasnt the aim to let locks survive a lot more dmg than mages? How will that be accomplished now exactly?
10/17/2016 06:14 PMPosted by Ornyx
With Demonic Circle, we heard the broad feedback about how it was missed when players had to opt-out of taking it because of better picks in its row. Now that it's lined up against more equally-powered and niche talents, we believe Demonic Circle will see more use overall.


It's pretty much one of the lamest mobility abilities in almost any situation and what does it compete against? Other stuff that generally isn't useful in raids. Doesn't seem like much of an interesting choice at all. Pick the lame duck mobility talent and don't give it a second thought because at least it might be useful sometimes. At least with Demon Skin and Dark Pact I didn't feel like my lack of mobility was catastrophic if caught in a bad spot.

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