Victory my Brothers ..Work Still To Be Done

Paladin
.. Awwyeeah and a few other notable Crusaders comes limping back from battle , holding each other up by the shoulders , sustained only by the good news to share .. and what must come next ...

Brothers we have won this victory but there is still work to be done:

I assume this is a PTR bug that you're seeing.

An update on this from the development team: we've reverted the change on PTR that folks were seeing from datamined information. Crusade will be staying the same in 7.1 as it is on live currently.

We may take another look at this skill in the future (design-wise), however, and when and if we do so we will look to the community for feedback.

Thanks for your feedback on this everyone!


Great work my brothers, let this be testament that if we stand together in the light , all will be possible.

Let us compile constructive feedback about which talents have little to no use and how we can improve ( opportunity for creative ideas times) the best ideas , ones popular by community will be archived in reserve section. Let us secure the future of our spec , together.

Disclaimer: Please note this is not a protest post , this is a space to gather feedback on a broad spectrum of abilities , sort of like a goodie bag of information for dev's to use for when they are seeking feedback to minimize us having heart attacks every major patch. Please keep discussion calm and constructive.
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Talent Revisions:

Tier 15

Execution Sentence Talent
3 Holy Power 20 yd range
Instant 20 sec cooldown
Requires Paladin (Retribution)
Requires level 15
A hammer slowly falls from the sky, dealing (1100% of Attack power) Holy damage after 7 sec.


Reasons need to be changed:

Consecration
Instant
Requires Paladin
Consecrates the land beneath Paladin, doing 27000 Holy damage over 20 sec to enemies who enter the area.


Reasons need to be changed:

Tier 60

Blade of Wrath *New*

Your auto attacks have a chance to reset the cool down of Blade of Justice.


Reasons need to be changed:

Tier 90

Seal of Light
1 to 5 Holy Power 100 yd range
Instant
Requires Paladin (Retribution)
Requires level 90
Draws upon your holy energy to increase your movement speed by 20% for 20 sec per holy power spent.


Reasons need to be changed:

Tier 100

Divine Purpose Talent
Requires Paladin (Retribution)
Requires level 100
Your Holy Power spending abilities have a 20% chance to make your next Holy Power spending ability free.


Reasons need to be changed:
I would prefer if they did not change Blade of Wrath. I like the normal low cool down as it is rather than a potential feast or famine from having an RNG cool down reset. Even if, on average, its duration would be as Blade of Wrath is now, there is just too much risk for feast/famine style scenarios that could cause the rotation to feel insanely fast or god awful slow. I would prefer having the rotation stay a bit more deterministic. I know that may seem dull but hear me out.
If they want to potentially make the rotation feel faster, give us a separate ability that has a chance to proc when we critically hit (or like what Fires of Justice already does which gives a chance of reducing the cost of holy power spenders by 1 or Divine purpose where we get a freebie). That way, the core rotation is still roughly the same, but every so often we get those 'huzzah' moments. I do not think having the core rotation revolve around the 'huzzah' moments (which the change to Blade of Wrath would do) is a good design decision.
Further, having an ability like that (that can speed up the rotation based on crit) enables players who do NOT want to stack ALL the haste, to stack other stats (in this case, namely crit) instead or perhaps balance between the two (haste and crit).

Rather than seal of light, I'd prefer they just bring back the old speed of light or the ability that enabled our judgment to increase our movement speed (either or, doesn't matter). Having to spend holy power for movement, rather than damage, sounds like a terrible idea, especially if the ability uses up ALL holy power rather than some fixed amount. How about 1 holy power and a really low cool down so that if someone WANTS to spend all 5 they can, but they are not FORCED to.

I do not really know what to say for Consecration or Execution Sentence as I do not use those abilities.

I would add that Holy Wrath should be a PvP talent. In PvE, it promotes a stupidly risky playstyle. Either re-work it back to the channeled ability that generates a ton of holy power or throw it on the PvP talent tree to replace Hammer of Reckoning.
How about you whiny brats just enjoy the fact that we're not getting nerfed instead of trying to pile more stuff on? Talk about ingrates....
Watcher did say that there'll be a new build on the 7.1 PTR soon with actual patch notes. I say wait for that, play around with it, then we can come back with suggestions.

Anything we say now, that wasn't already in the PTR, would probably (at best) be filled for future reference and forgotten.
Ret doesn't have numbers problems, it has playstyle problems. Feels clunky without decent Haste, can't target switch, talent tree is apocalyptically bad in design. The core of the spec is good, but it's as if they took a good core and then called it a day, giving the rest over to the interns. We're not the worst off, by far, and we are being heard if the Crusade debacle is any indication, but you shouldn't settle for 'good' when you can get 'perfect'. Minor tweaks here and there, tweaks that aren't any harder to do than Blizz has already demonstrated they're willing to, and we've got an amazing spec on us.

Firstly, baseline Zeal, nerfed accordingly with secondary damage. To replace it on the tree I'd suggest;
Wrath of the Crusader - Critical hits with Zeal reduce the cooldown of Avenging Wrath by X seconds.

Secondly, make Execution Sentence and Justicar's Vengeance affected by the legendary cloak and EotH on Ashbringer. This also buffs Divine Purpose, so not sure if that talent will need tweaks.

Thirdly, remove Divine Hammer, replacing it with original Blade of Wrath. Rename the 7.1 rework to... mmm... Art of War?

Fourthly, GBoM reworked and our damage buffed to compensate (or maybe not... baseline Zeal is a pretty huge buff as-is).

More here, since I made this before the tuning pass: http://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20749117936
Don't like the thread? Don't click on it.

I don't think making consecration last longer is the answer to it's problem. Things tend to get pulled out of it, making it very difficult to get maximized use out of it. If it lasts longer, things are just more likely to get pulled away from consecrated areas. It's actually pretty strong AoE damage (when the pack stays in it). It just really falls off ST, and that's no surprise because the talent most choose from the first tier is a buff to both TV and DS. Maybe it just needs to tick a tiny bit harder when there's only 1 thing in the consecrated area to justify using the GCD on it rather than anything else?

I think for execution sentence they should probably bump the damage and make it a 5 HoPo spender, so it synergizes with DP. Make it like JV is at 100, dealing a little less damage than 2 buffed TVs, so it's worth using the free cast, but not necessarily worth building to 5 just to drop an ES.
AWWWWWWWWWWWWWYEAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH
10/18/2016 06:50 AMPosted by Daromir
I would prefer if they did not change Blade of Wrath. I like the normal low cool down as it is rather than a potential feast or famine from having an RNG cool down reset. Even if, on average, its duration would be as Blade of Wrath is now, there is just too much risk for feast/famine style scenarios that could cause the rotation to feel insanely fast or god awful slow. I would prefer having the rotation stay a bit more deterministic. I know that may seem dull but hear me out.
If they want to potentially make the rotation feel faster, give us a separate ability that has a chance to proc when we critically hit (or like what Fires of Justice already does which gives a chance of reducing the cost of holy power spenders by 1 or Divine purpose where we get a freebie). That way, the core rotation is still roughly the same, but every so often we get those 'huzzah' moments. I do not think having the core rotation revolve around the 'huzzah' moments (which the change to Blade of Wrath would do) is a good design decision.
Further, having an ability like that (that can speed up the rotation based on crit) enables players who do NOT want to stack ALL the haste, to stack other stats (in this case, namely crit) instead or perhaps balance between the two (haste and crit).

Rather than seal of light, I'd prefer they just bring back the old speed of light or the ability that enabled our judgment to increase our movement speed (either or, doesn't matter). Having to spend holy power for movement, rather than damage, sounds like a terrible idea, especially if the ability uses up ALL holy power rather than some fixed amount. How about 1 holy power and a really low cool down so that if someone WANTS to spend all 5 they can, but they are not FORCED to.

I do not really know what to say for Consecration or Execution Sentence as I do not use those abilities.

I would add that Holy Wrath should be a PvP talent. In PvE, it promotes a stupidly risky playstyle. Either re-work it back to the channeled ability that generates a ton of holy power or throw it on the PvP talent tree to replace Hammer of Reckoning.


These are great suggestions, I especially agree Holy Wrath should be a PVP talent , possibly to replace Divine Punisher as I dont believe we have HP generator issues in PVP.
We have to save 7.0 Blade of Wrath. I don't want to sound greedy, but we already have a proc playstyle for those who want it. It's called Divine Purpose and Justicar's Vengeance.
10/18/2016 08:10 AMPosted by Torgash
We have to save 7.0 Blade of Wrath. I don't want to sound greedy, but we already have a proc playstyle for those who want it. It's called Divine Purpose and Justicar's Vengeance.


So what do you guys think about the proposed wrath changes in light of crusade remaining the same , does this change how we view the talent?
Now if they don't change Blade of Wrath.... All will be good.
Blade of Wrath's major benefit to me, is the reduced cooldown, sustained damage, and that it helps smooth out the rotation.

The cooldown on Blade of Justice is simply too long and results in too much down time. Adding in a proc to reset the cooldown is simply to risky in my opinion. Either the damage or chance to reset would need to be buffed to account for a bad luck streak.

The problem as I see it, is that the proposed damage and chance to reset will be based on not the worst case scenario, but the greatest. In short, Blizzard may assume that you get a lot of procs and therefore make the damage or chance to reset lower.
blizzards logic

hmm, paladins, right? Warriors of the light..... hmm, no holy damage for you. NEXT
10/18/2016 08:10 AMPosted by Torgash
We have to save 7.0 Blade of Wrath. I don't want to sound greedy, but we already have a proc playstyle for those who want it. It's called Divine Purpose and Justicar's Vengeance.


I wholeheartedly agree. Being that I primarily PVP, having a proc based on auto-attacks is about as worthless as a talent can get. I would FAR prefer the current Live Blade of Wrath, for no other reason than the lower, predictable, reliable cooldown.

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