Xera: "What would you have done differently?"

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Xe'ra does seem to find it prefectly accptable to murder your own friends and allies in arms on the whim

any who, the psychopathic behavior in the Naaru is alarming to say the lease
Maybe. when the draenai say "The naaru has not forgotten us" it a cautionary warning
Sort like "Look out, They're angry bee's in next room"
10/25/2016 09:40 PMPosted by Kyveli
10/25/2016 09:34 PMPosted by Torvald
...

Except Illidan was right. The choices were:

A. Everyone dies.
B. Soldiers who were already willing to die to stop the demons get sacrificed to stop the demons.

Also, Kurtalos appeared to be the jerk in that event. Here he's shouting about how the colossal infernal is about to kill them all and burn the place from the inside out, and no one's abilities are able to stop it, and Illidan manages to avert everyone's death by using his soldiers. Instead of being thanked for managing to prevent total annihilation for everyone, he gets moral posturing from a guy he just saved.
Except with Broxxigar and Rhonin there, on top of who knows how many Ravenguard, it's unlikely that Illidan needed to eat a few dozen people so he could collapse a star inside the infernal. He chose the most expedient path(which would coincidentally give him the most power), not the one that would save the most lives.


Sounds like you're projecting your wishes for a different plot onto a plot that you don't like. The plot as it was doesn't have Rhonin or Broxxigar or the Ravenguard manage to stop the colossal infernal if you stand there as Illidan and try to use your other abilities to stop it. They're all present, and none of them are capable of salvaging the situation. The plot has Kurtalos screaming "Do something Illidan! It's tearing us apart! The hold cannot take much more!"

It's exactly as I said. Illidan, according to the plot, has two options. Use ineffective magic and the legion wins. Or sacrifice his moon guard to save the people that could still be saved.

To Xe'ra question of "what would you have done differently?," the implicit answer, of course, is nothing differently in terms of his actions, because the entire scenario was written to underline the fact that his actions were the only course by which anyone survived at all.

Criticism of Illidan for not having waited for Rhonin or Broxxigar or something else to come up with a solution reflects less on the character and more on the discomfort of the person making the criticism with stories where protagonists are forced to choose between a bad option and a worse option.
10/25/2016 04:35 PMPosted by Patchs
Idk, maybe not murder dozens upon dozens if not hundreds of my own soldiers.

And if I had to do it, maybe I'd try not to be a humongous jerkwad about it afterwards.


Totally!

I kind of want to punch her in the face though.
10/26/2016 04:23 PMPosted by Torvald
10/25/2016 09:40 PMPosted by Kyveli
...Except with Broxxigar and Rhonin there, on top of who knows how many Ravenguard, it's unlikely that Illidan needed to eat a few dozen people so he could collapse a star inside the infernal. He chose the most expedient path(which would coincidentally give him the most power), not the one that would save the most lives.


Sounds like you're projecting your wishes for a different plot onto a plot that you don't like. The plot as it was doesn't have Rhonin or Broxxigar or the Ravenguard manage to stop the colossal infernal if you stand there as Illidan and try to use your other abilities to stop it. They're all present, and none of them are capable of salvaging the situation. The plot has Kurtalos screaming "Do something Illidan! It's tearing us apart! The hold cannot take much more!"

It's exactly as I said. Illidan, according to the plot, has two options. Use ineffective magic and the legion wins. Or sacrifice his moon guard to save the people that could still be saved.

To Xe'ra question of "what would you have done differently?," the implicit answer, of course, is nothing differently in terms of his actions, because the entire scenario was written to underline the fact that his actions were the only course by which anyone survived at all.

Criticism of Illidan for not having waited for Rhonin or Broxxigar or something else to come up with a solution reflects less on the character and more on the discomfort of the person making the criticism with stories where protagonists are forced to choose between a bad option and a worse option.


And his behavior after that show us he is almost a sociopath.

The ends don't justify the means or we will be in darker place. In game speaking, Arthas, Staghelm, Garrosh and Sargeras had similar actions and intentions. They are not all of a sudden saints.
if you told me years back in Burning Crusaides
that a psycho naaru fan girl be force feeding me fan fic of a raid boss

I would say your crazy. Yet, here we are years later
10/26/2016 04:31 PMPosted by Ostin
10/26/2016 04:23 PMPosted by Torvald
...

Sounds like you're projecting your wishes for a different plot onto a plot that you don't like. The plot as it was doesn't have Rhonin or Broxxigar or the Ravenguard manage to stop the colossal infernal if you stand there as Illidan and try to use your other abilities to stop it. They're all present, and none of them are capable of salvaging the situation. The plot has Kurtalos screaming "Do something Illidan! It's tearing us apart! The hold cannot take much more!"

It's exactly as I said. Illidan, according to the plot, has two options. Use ineffective magic and the legion wins. Or sacrifice his moon guard to save the people that could still be saved.

To Xe'ra question of "what would you have done differently?," the implicit answer, of course, is nothing differently in terms of his actions, because the entire scenario was written to underline the fact that his actions were the only course by which anyone survived at all.

Criticism of Illidan for not having waited for Rhonin or Broxxigar or something else to come up with a solution reflects less on the character and more on the discomfort of the person making the criticism with stories where protagonists are forced to choose between a bad option and a worse option.


And his behavior after that show us he is almost a sociopath.

The ends don't justify the means or we will be in darker place. In game speaking, Arthas, Staghelm, Garrosh and Sargeras had similar actions and intentions. They are not all of a sudden saints.


You mean the stellar voice acting where, after an intense battle where lives were saved at great sacrifice, Illidan got angry with moral lecturing from those he just saved? Not sociopathic or "almost sociopathic."

Also, it's silly to apply the term "ends don't justify the means" broadly across the whole spectrum of WoW's plot. "Ends justify the means" is a context-sensitive statement. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. It depends what the specific plot points were in the story you're being told. WoW has plenty of stories where they do, and plenty of stories where they don't. The player character, after all, spends most of their time as a contract killer from level 1 - 110.

Here, with Illidan, they wrote a small scenario story where the ends were very clearly justified by his means. You might not like the heavy-handed narration of the Naa'ru. Xe'ra's not a very good narrator. But still, that's the story.
10/25/2016 10:11 PMPosted by Koro
10/25/2016 10:09 PMPosted by Aederyn
"Okay Xe'ra, you get two minutes to defend Illidan's demon-infested sex palace."

Oh, so now having a demon infested sex palace is a crime?

...

I have to go do something unrelated to hiding a sex palace.


Mine kinda came with my class hall when I bought the place!
10/26/2016 04:52 PMPosted by Torvald

You mean the stellar voice acting where, after an intense battle where lives were saved at great sacrifice, Illidan got angry with moral lecturing from those he just saved? Not sociopathic or "almost sociopathic."

Also, it's silly to apply the term "ends don't justify the means" broadly across the whole spectrum of WoW's plot. "Ends justify the means" is a context-sensitive statement. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. It depends what the specific plot points were in the story you're being told. WoW has plenty of stories where they do, and plenty of stories where they don't. The player character, after all, spends most of their time as a contract killer from level 1 - 110.

Here, with Illidan, they wrote a small scenario story where the ends were very clearly justified by his means. You might not like the heavy-handed narration of the Naa'ru. Xe'ra's not a very good narrator. But still, that's the story.


That is the story Xe'ra want us to believe. We were not there, so we don't know. We are hearing Xe'ra version.

I won't start arguing about what our characters did and why. I play on RP server so Ostin has his reasons to murder some people and he admits that sometimes he was manipulated.

Focus on the plot in question, it was a lame plot twist in my opinion, sorry. I can't see anything about it and not to think of tvtropes. A plot twist well done, hinted at earlier stages of the history, is Snipe on the Harry Potter series. Illidan? Nah.

I don't have a problem if people like Illidan's plot and hate Snipe - it is just my opinion and thanks gods my truth is not universal.
10/25/2016 09:39 PMPosted by Tadkins
I bet next expansion Xe'ra is going to make us feel bad and say we were wrong for killing Arthas in WotLK.


Well, he killed me first, so fair is fair.
10/26/2016 05:06 PMPosted by Ostin
10/26/2016 04:52 PMPosted by Torvald

You mean the stellar voice acting where, after an intense battle where lives were saved at great sacrifice, Illidan got angry with moral lecturing from those he just saved? Not sociopathic or "almost sociopathic."

Also, it's silly to apply the term "ends don't justify the means" broadly across the whole spectrum of WoW's plot. "Ends justify the means" is a context-sensitive statement. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. It depends what the specific plot points were in the story you're being told. WoW has plenty of stories where they do, and plenty of stories where they don't. The player character, after all, spends most of their time as a contract killer from level 1 - 110.

Here, with Illidan, they wrote a small scenario story where the ends were very clearly justified by his means. You might not like the heavy-handed narration of the Naa'ru. Xe'ra's not a very good narrator. But still, that's the story.


That is the story Xe'ra want us to believe. We were not there, so we don't know. We are hearing Xe'ra version.

I won't start arguing about what our characters did and why. I play on RP server so Ostin has his reasons to murder some people and he admits that sometimes he was manipulated.

Focus on the plot in question, it was a lame plot twist in my opinion, sorry. I can't see anything about it and not to think of tvtropes. A plot twist well done, hinted at earlier stages of the history, is Snipe on the Harry Potter series. Illidan? Nah.

I don't have a problem if people like Illidan's plot and hate Snipe - it is just my opinion and thanks gods my truth is not universal.


There's really nowhere where the game or the writers or anything hints that we're seeing a false history that's only "Xe'ra's version." The story is that Xe'ra is allowing us to see echoes of Illidan's actual memories. If Xe'ra is an unreliable narrator and what we're seeing did not, in fact, happen, then it would be pointless to assess anything done by Illidan until you saw the "real" version of events. But there's zero reason to think that we're seeing a false version. It's pretty clearly written to be an accurate "re-living" of a key point in Illidan's life.

Also, it's a little weird to say "focus on the plot in question, it was a lame twist." The plot of this scenario wasn't a twist. It was backstory. If you're looking at it through a lens of wanting a twist, you're sure to be disappointed.

If you want to broaden the topic to be talking about other things with Illidan outside this particular scenario, then that's fine, but that's a separate topic than what I was discussing in my prior posts.

I would say this (the Blackrook Hold scenario) was one of the better written pieces of quest content in the game, minus Xe'ra's narration. Personally, I thought Illidan's voice actor delivered his point within the scenario forcefully and well enough that you didn't need Xe'ra to repeat the idea that Illidan did what had to be done.
You mean the stellar voice acting where, after an intense battle where lives were saved at great sacrifice, Illidan got angry with moral lecturing from those he just saved? Not sociopathic or "almost sociopathic."

That's.. a thought.
10/25/2016 11:55 PMPosted by Ilius
Wait till we upload Xe'ra into Tyrande, because Elune wanted her to know she picked wrong. ;) I kid. The story is a bit funny at times, but there are some fair points that can be drawn if you look at the size and scope of the Legion's threat (and what forged the Legion).


"Oh, I'm so sad, the love of my life chose my brother over me. I am wrapped in sadness. Also, in many many pairs of ankles of Black Temple concubines. But mostly saaaaaadness."

Meanwhile Marcus the human Paladin looks up from a cuddle puddle of steaming tauren flesh to remind Illidan that it's okay in a three-way and he really needs to get over it.
Yea, but now once again...here I am...at the end of the scenario....laughing (at AWAY Johnny) and crying at "Tyrande..."

*slow clap*

Thanks, Blizzard. I needed a meltdown this week.
10/26/2016 04:18 PMPosted by Seger
Xe'ra does seem to find it prefectly accptable to murder your own friends and allies in arms on the whim

any who, the psychopathic behavior in the Naaru is alarming to say the lease
Maybe. when the draenai say "The naaru has not forgotten us" it a cautionary warning
Sort like "Look out, They're angry bee's in next room"


The Naaru are our allies, and we know how they find it appropriate to treat allies, so... weaponized Naaru as anti-Legion weapons?
10/26/2016 04:35 PMPosted by Seger
if you told me years back in Burning Crusaides
that a psycho naaru fan girl be force feeding me fan fic of a raid boss

I would say your crazy. Yet, here we are years later

He deserves a redemption story.

Everyone deserves love.
I liked the symbolism I thought existed in his original story. He was born with golden eyes/a great destiny (it really only means druidic power, but the symbolism still works).

Sargeras symbolically destroyed Illidan's great destiny by burning out his eyes.

Turns out he's still the savior of the universe and all that good symbolism is retconned jargon (or it was never intended at all).
Yeah, after doing that scenario I'm having second thoughts about getting Illidan to help us fight the Legion.

If he's willing to snack on his own men for a quick power boost, imagine what he'd do to a group of random adventurers.
The writing of this plotline is intolerable. Its right up there with having to get those drug addicts in Suramar their next fix. I have no "sympathy for the devil."
10/26/2016 08:09 PMPosted by Arbiter
Yeah, after doing that scenario I'm having second thoughts about getting Illidan to help us fight the Legion.

If he's willing to snack on his own men for a quick power boost, imagine what he'd do to a group of random adventurers.


Yeah, I want him to stay dead because this redemption nosense cheapens the impact of his death. But with all that is going on here, I want to revive Illidan just to kill him again right in front of Xe'ra -- purely out of spite.

Unfortunately, it's clear that we need to revive him... it is either that or let Sargeras himself possess Illidan's corpse, and I think everyone would like that thought even less than Illidan's binging habits.
10/26/2016 08:20 PMPosted by Zyliros
Illidan's binging habits.


Dude, you almost made me have to clean my keyboard. I was drinking when I read that. "Binging habits". Cute.

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