People actually think Legion killed casuals?

General Discussion
My alt that I use almost exclusively for farming herbs/minerals just got a piece of 860 gear thanks to Withered J'im (meanwhile, my main only got gold).

Getting that kind of gear from what amounts to throwaway content would not have happened on virtually any other expansion, so I agree that Legion still very much caters to casual players.
10/11/2016 02:00 PMPosted by Kromkosh
"No need for alts"

Nice meme, I've since been benched from my raid group because DK DPS is in the trash right now across both of our DPS specs.

The problem isn't Death Knights, it's your raid group being dicks. Find a new raid group that isn't a bunch of dicks, problem solved.
Hey, cowardly downvoter, feel free to offer a coherent thought for a change instead of mindlessly clicking on a button.

I'm guessing logic or reasoning is not your strong suit, hence your bad opinions and undesire to share them.
10/11/2016 02:39 PMPosted by Cindersworn
10/11/2016 02:34 PMPosted by Sabyrr
I am a casual player. My preferred form of Casual play is leveling alts and professions. Both of which have been pretty much decimated by legion.

This. I pay my $15.00 a month to do stuff like this...I'm not good at dungeons, I hate them, and don't want to do them. But Blizzard is forcing me into them to do professions, and no...I'm not happy about it.

Y'know, y'all should be glad I feel that way about dungeons...otherwise I'd inflict my bad playing on everyone unlucky enough to get in my way. Sure, I'd get kicked...a lot...but y'all would still have to deal with the deaths I've caused in the interim. So...why do you want to force me to do them? Really?

And no, I don't want to play a single player game. I'm perfectly fine interacting with other long as its not in dungeons or raids. Y'know that player that has no problem helping you out with stuff if you ask over broadcast? More than likely its one iteration of me.

Think about it.

You're in an extreme minority. Dungeons have been a cornerstone of WoW since Classic, don't expect things to change for you.
I do need my alts. They are the reason I'm still playing.
What I don't need is dungeons gating.
10/11/2016 02:00 PMPosted by Kromkosh
"No need for alts"

Nice meme, I've since been benched from my raid group because DK DPS is in the trash right now across both of our DPS specs.

Judging by your logs, it's your fault your dps is low.
10/12/2016 10:46 AMPosted by Frostchi
You're in an extreme minority.

"Almost every facet of WoW is an activity that caters to a minority of the playerbase. That may sound odd at first blush, but it’s true. In a sense, that’s part of the magic of WoW. It is not a narrow game, but rather one that can be enjoyed in numerous different ways, by people with hugely diverse playstyles. A minority of players raid. A minority of players participate in PvP. A tiny minority touch Mythic raiding. A tiny minority of players do rated PvP. A minority of players have several max-level alts. A minority of players do pet battles, roleplay, list things for sale on the auction house, do Challenge Mode dungeons, and the list goes on. Virtually the only activity that a clear majority of players participate in is questing and level-up dungeons, but even then there’s a sizeable group that views those activities as a nuisance that they have to get through in order to reach their preferred endgame. And yet, taken together, that collection of minority groups literally IS the World of Warcraft."

- Ion Hazzikostas, May 2016

As quoted here, since Blizzard purged it from their own forum:
I don't mind raids being exclusive, and the people who don't raid, I don't know why they should mind that I spend most of my time there.

I don't like rep grinds, forced grinds, gating, and if I wanted a second job that I didn't enjoy I am quite certain I could have found one quite easily and they would have payed me... not the other way around.
10/11/2016 02:36 PMPosted by Alcsear

Classic raiding, with the exception of perhaps classic Naxx because it was far overtuned, was mind-numbingly easy as well, and didn't come with harder difficulties like we have 2 of today. Not sure why you believe classic raiding was difficult. You find 40 people, 15 of them are afk or might as well be because they have no idea how to play their class.

People have gotten better at playing their classes since then. Theorycrafting and addons are widespread, so it gives the false illusion that content is easier but its really not, people just learned.

Raiding in vanilla was difficult, but often not for the reasons that a raid encounter is difficult today. Coordinating the actions of 40 people is a greater logistical challenge then coordinating 10-25 people. I hope that's not a surprise, especially those 40 people in vanilla had 10+ fewer years of raiding experience compared to now.

Game mechanics were also a lot different back then. Players running out of mana was a legit concern, particularly in MC and BWL. Threat management was...well, an actual thing. Threat meters were a mandatory addon in BWL and classes without good threat reduction abilities would sometimes have to actually throttle their damage to avoid pulling aggro. Obviously having to lower dps = longer encounter = more stress on healer mana.

Even some boss attacks worked differently back then. All dragon bosses and some non-dragon bosses had frontal cleaves that could chain. So that rogue that wanders too close to the front of the boss can cause a frontal cleave to chain to all melee and possibly to the entire raid if the space is small enough (such as Vael's room).

This of course doesn't even go into non-encounter stuff like, back in 2005 people having worse internet connections, worse computers (relatively cheaper to build a PC capable of running WoW nowadays...I've got a screenshot of a boss kill from 2005 where apparently I was running the game at around 20fps). Blizzard's servers are generally much better now. If you played on a high pop server in vanilla it wasn't too uncommon to have boss attempts ruined by massive server lag.

Raid encounters are a lot more interesting now and you have more options for doing them - both great things - but I think it's unfair to say that vanilla raiding was *easy*. You have to consider those raids in their own time. They were challenging, but for reasons that are unfamiliar to us today.
Game is great for casuals. I think some of the hardcore players dislike it because RNG isn't on their side.
10/11/2016 01:58 PMPosted by Salhezra
The game is more casual friendly today than it has ever been.

Classic: No LFG, no premade group finder, no missions, no story, no single player. Raiding was only for the dedicated.

BC: Same as above, except added more dailies that you could do on your own. Heroic daily quest, you haf to make friends or go to trade chat. Added a few easier raids, but credibly no LFR.

WotLK: Same as above, added LFG later.

Cata: Same as above, added LFR.

MoP: Same as above, better story. Did not remove old casual content, added challenge modes for dedicated players.

WoD: Same as above, did not remove any casual content, kept challenge modes for dedicated players, ADDED more casual content with garrisons.

Legion: Same as above, and added more single player epic story. No need for alts because there's so much to do on a main character, especially if you are casual.

How can anyone perceive this game as being less casual?

Every iteration of Wow has been more catering to casuals than its predecessor.

I am a casual, by the way.

Not it is not. It is the most hostile expansion EVER. Vanilla there was little expectations that casual people would raid.

If you have an hour and a half a day to play just trying to do rep grinds, world quests and Suramar will eat up all your time. Not to mention the 45 to 50 minute waits for queue. Oh and then there is profession monkey business you have to do.
10/11/2016 01:58 PMPosted by Salhezra
No need for alts because there's so much to do on a main character, especially if you are casual.

I don't play alts because I "need" to, I play alts because I like playing alts.

Now leveling alts and getting them up to speed once they're capped is annoying. More annoying than I remember it ever being.
10/12/2016 10:12 AMPosted by Lungress
How do you not have time to form a mythic group? They fill faster than a LFD dps queue.

Because these pre-made groups only want people who are 860+ with keys that I do not have. It's not easy to get into a group if you aren't into grinding and gearing your main to oblivion.
10/12/2016 06:40 AMPosted by Mvura
10/11/2016 03:11 PMPosted by Melinjem
I don't call it "casual" when end game is pushed at the player base as a whole for some meta or professions, don't care whether it is through a group finder, random, lfd or a raid boss, push instanced content at me and the expac has becomes one of Blizzard pushing even harder their ideals on how to play.

Name a game where you can just do whatever you please and still succeed.

I'll wait.

I can go through Dark Souls 2 at the lowest possible level with the lamest armor and just a ladle for a weapon if I want.

Or I can go through Mirror's Edge without having to kill a single enemy if I want.

I levelled a character all to max level in Guild Wars 2 simply by doing crafting, because I wanted to.

I played Final Fantasy 1 with a party of Black Mages only and still beat it - it was a chore, but I did it. Why? Because I wanted to.

I would go through Street Fighter 2 using only weak punches and kicks and no special attacks, and still succeed. Because I wanted to.
10/11/2016 02:13 PMPosted by Bálor
No need for alts? People don't go on their alts because the artifact and such is too much of a pain to level on more than one character, it's not because there's "too much to do on our mains"

It really isn't. I got this guy up to 861 in 1.5 weeks and am at AK3 almost 4, with like 19 levels in my weapon.
10/11/2016 02:24 PMPosted by Serpentium
My only beef with this statement, and i'm not going to have a cow over this, but...

You think legion raiding, and more importantly anything above WotLK, was equal to classic 40 MC, or 40 AQ?

Legion normal, is literally the easiest raiding I have ever done. In fact, the only reason I don't have a full clear, is due to the fact that I am focusing more on PvP on my main this xpac.

Point is, back in classic, you had to find 40 people who were level 60, let alone in dungeon blues / epics, then you had to worry about mechanics so mind bogglingly evil, that it would take 12 hours, just to down a boss... (Lookin at you baron geddon...) And dear god almighty, can you even imagine the poor raid leader, having to coordinate more people then you usually see in one day in legion? Yeah, BC was indeed the same in terms of mechanical complexity, but alot easier it terms of raw numbers, and overall organization. Wrath, same thing, innovative mechanics, easier to coordinate, etc. etc. etc... Cata, however, was the turning point, when everything slowly got easier, and easier. by the time WoD had come around, you could be a raiding player, fresh from level 1, in a matter of a week. (Oh and note, that with the addition of the dungeon finder, finding players raid ready, became 100% easier.)

In vanilla if you could get 40 non-retards together that had plenty of spare time, you wouldn't have much trouble in AQ40/Naxx
Vanilla and BC: You're missed the biggest casual player activity, the thing that separated WoW from other MMOs and could arguably be the main reason for it's success; LEVELING and being able to do it completely solo.

Leveling a character to the level cap back in Vanilla and BC took 300+ hours to do and this was back when most people didn't have every class at or near the level cap, so casual players could easily spend more than a year getting them all to 70.

Leveling has been made trivial since then and the games been out for so long that most people have every class at least to lvl 100.

And even though we still have LFR and LFD 5-man heroics, they are no longer an acceptable casual endgame option like they used to be back in Cata and mop.

It used to go level to cap -> Normal 5-mans -> Heroic 5-mans -> LFR/dailes for valor points for the casual endgame.

Now it goes hit 110 -> WQ for 2 weeks to get 840 gear, done you hit the character advancement wall, get into organized group content or unsub because you're not going to be advancing your character with LFD, LFR, or dailies anytime soon.

You run out of ways to advance your character a lot quicker than you did in past expansions.
10/12/2016 07:13 AMPosted by Kromkosh
10/11/2016 02:32 PMPosted by Murlocholmes

Not quite sure what you guys mean. Unholy still does very respectable damage. You can't look at the 95th percentile of what the most recent logs say because realistically you and your guild are not going to play at that level.

If your guild is sitting you for heroic modes because they think DKs are that terrible, there's either a serious disconnect between coherent thought and the people who organize the raid, or there's a serious disconnect between class potential and the people playing it.

Define "very respectable damage", because according to logs we fall behind every single spec that isn't FDK as item levels increase, and the more they increase, the greater the disparity because Unholy doesn't scale well and historically never has. Typically we're strong at he start of expansions but peeter off toward the end due to said scaling, but this time we don't even get to be strong at the start. Even disregarding the low numbers from our limp attacks, the spec is just broken mechanically. RNG atop RNG stop RNG that basically makes us Outlaw Rogues minus the damage output, our main Runic Power spender doing as much damage as our autoattacks, and being the only pet spec in the game whose pet doesn't scale with mastery doesn't make a class good or "very respectable".

You missed his/her point. Your dps is not relevant compared to other classes. It is only relevamt to the fight. If your spec can enter the fight and dps it, discussion over. If your issue is your dps vs other classes, thats a different question.
10/11/2016 02:13 PMPosted by Bálor
No need for alts? People don't go on their alts because the artifact and such is too much of a pain to level on more than one character, it's not because there's "too much to do on our mains"

One alt is more than enough. As for the OP our guild is desperately in need of dps.....oddest thing I have ever seen. More tanks and healers than anything. That is why at the start of an expac you pick your main, your alt is just for fun.

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