Horrible design - Return to Karazhan

General Discussion
10/25/2016 09:41 PMPosted by Trialforlife
Don't get me wrong, I love the aesthetic and the content in this dungeon but why is there no "checkpoints" in this dungeon? Seriously, if you wipe at last boss, you'll have to walk all the way over there again. And the shortcuts can only help so much. I feel really annoyed that I'm a warlock and that my only speed ability is a talent that is not worth as the other two talents.


Couldnt disagree more. If anything the wipe and runback we had galvanised us even more to poke that guy's eye out.
10/25/2016 11:46 PMPosted by Gryth
Back in my day, if you wiped in a dungeon, you had to run back to the entrance from a graveyard OUTSIDE the dungeon, yeah I know, crazy right? And then, you had to fight your way through trash mob respawns.

You new kids are so damn spoiled.


I remember this.

I never want to go back to it.
Back in my day, if you wiped in a dungeon, you had to run back to the entrance from a graveyard OUTSIDE the dungeon


Something, something, pepperidge farm, something, remembering something.
WELCOME TO 2006's WOW
I would like some checkpoints really.
10/25/2016 09:52 PMPosted by Haloch
10/25/2016 09:48 PMPosted by Gabbie
I think a lot of these things go over a player's head: yes, it's annoying. That's the point. It was annoying when it was current content, too, now you get to experience it.

Is it modern? Of course not. It's meant to be funny and a nod at what players used to go through.

And also, you don't go into that dungeon expecting it to get done in an hour - wiping is why.


Wrong. There were at least ways to get around kara easily. This time around, there isn't.


When I did Kara the doors that were locked would open as we progressed, which did make it easier to move around.
10/25/2016 09:46 PMPosted by Sjwcucklord
get good and dont wipe


You're amazingly stupid.
10/25/2016 11:50 PMPosted by Memorize
10/25/2016 11:43 PMPosted by Spazlord
Monks have heal and tank specs, just saying.


Thank you for offering to roll one and tank/heal for me in that case.


And then he can come tank/heal for me because I only have Vault left and there are no tanks/heals left. I've checked LFG both dungeon and custom and they are all dps looking for tank/heals.
And hunters don't have a tank or a heal spec.
The walk back is a bit annoying, but in my opinion that isn't the worst thing about the design. The place to far overtuned for the ilvl needed to get attuned. I know there is a lot of people clearing it, calling it easy, and trolling "the casuals" that complain about the difficulty. When I look up the profiles of the people who call it an easy clear, they are always in 860+ gear.

Keep in mind to get attuned you need to run 4 mythics that drop 840 loot. These mythics can be done in 830 gear. Kara drops 855 - 860 gear. The quest ring is just 850. If you look at the ilvl needed to get keyed and the loot rewards, this place should be set to ilvl 840. There is no way this place is ilvl 840.

This locks out a lot of players who are not doing heroic emerald nightmare and/or mythic +6 - 10 content. If the intendant ilvl for this place is 860, bliz should have made the key quest all mythic plus runs. That would have set the correct expectations. Centering the attunment quest to ilvl 830 content clearly set the wrong expectation.

As for the mechanics being too hard, that I can't wrap my head around. So far I love the mechanics. It's just the damage folks in ilvl 840 - 850 gear is too much.
10/25/2016 11:46 PMPosted by Gryth
Back in my day, if you wiped in a dungeon, you had to run back to the entrance from a graveyard OUTSIDE the dungeon, yeah I know, crazy right? And then, you had to fight your way through trash mob respawns.

You new kids are so damn spoiled.

Yes, I remember that well. We put up with it because that's just the way it was.

If you enjoy tedium for the sake of closet masochistic tendencies then more power to you, but I don't appreciate the assertion that the desire to cut out that tedium makes people 'so damn spoiled.'

The real question is are enough players at large going to deal with an overtuned and tediously designed five-man raid disguised as a dungeon for the kind of ilvl gear they'll be able to get by LFR queuing for Nighthold in a month or so.

Seems to me Blizzard's taking some pretty unnecessary risks with the goofy dungeon progression and mythic exclusivity of content in Legion. I see it blowing up in their face before the majority of the WoW community extols the virtues of long corpse runs.

But hey, that's just me.
10/25/2016 09:48 PMPosted by Gabbie
I think a lot of these things go over a player's head: yes, it's annoying. That's the point. It was annoying when it was current content, too, now you get to experience it.

Is it modern? Of course not. It's meant to be funny and a nod at what players used to go through.

And also, you don't go into that dungeon expecting it to get done in an hour - wiping is why.


Is DHT also supposed to be a nod to the past?

10/28/2016 07:26 AMPosted by Relena
10/25/2016 11:46 PMPosted by Gryth
Back in my day, if you wiped in a dungeon, you had to run back to the entrance from a graveyard OUTSIDE the dungeon, yeah I know, crazy right? And then, you had to fight your way through trash mob respawns.

You new kids are so damn spoiled.

Yes, I remember that well. We put up with it because that's just the way it was.

If you enjoy tedium for the sake of closet masochistic tendencies then more power to you, but I don't appreciate the assertion that the desire to cut out that tedium makes people 'so damn spoiled.'

The real question is are enough players at large going to deal with an overtuned and tediously designed five-man raid disguised as a dungeon for the kind of ilvl gear they'll be able to get by LFR queuing for Nighthold in a month or so.

Seems to me Blizzard's taking some pretty unnecessary risks with the goofy dungeon progression and mythic exclusivity of content in Legion. I see it blowing up in their face before the majority of the WoW community extols the virtues of long corpse runs.

But hey, that's just me.


Overtuned? LOL
They went back to the old classic and BC model, where you have to run everywhere to get anywhere. SSC anyone?
10/26/2016 12:59 AMPosted by Daarkk
10/25/2016 11:46 PMPosted by Gryth
Back in my day, if you wiped in a dungeon, you had to run back to the entrance from a graveyard OUTSIDE the dungeon, yeah I know, crazy right? And then, you had to fight your way through trash mob respawns.

You new kids are so damn spoiled.


100 times this. The entitlement is shocking.


You guys are dumb. I've been playing since release as well, yet Garbage like this doesn't make the game more difficult. It simply makes it more annoying. Arbitrary waste of time, that adds no benefit to the game whatsoever.
So.... It's basically what happened in old Karazhan then right?
As I remember the old Karazhan has a teleport system, may it was a later addition?

I can't see how adding teleport would hurt Karazhan.
10/26/2016 06:04 PMPosted by Ted
On top of the long walks, you cant break it up into 2 night run.

has to be done in one shot.


Yes you can. We did. And we'll be back a third night. There is a bug - if you leave and zone back in as a group, you get a new instance. Just leave the instance, break up the group, everyone zone in individually - you'll be able to see each other - and then invite into the party when everyone is in the instance. It's a bug.
I for one thoroughly enjoyed clearing Kara this week. Here are my thoughts:

- LOVE the mechanics. Small group situational awareness is key in this instance, and I find it to be a breath of fresh air. It already feels like pugs can faceroll regular (+0) mythics, while ignoring certain mechanics. In Kara, at least for now, everyone has to learn the mechanics and perform the fight or you wipe. This is especially apparent on Shade of Medivh and Mana Devourer. But really, it's important on almost all the bosses in Kara.

-The instance lockout needs to be changed. Take for example my experience. My guild group did the first 5 bosses, Opera, Maiden, Moroes, Attumen, and Curator. It took us almost 3 hours, so we stopped there for the night. However, the next night our tank got called into work, so we picked up another guildie who didn't mind skipping the first 5 bosses. However, when we picked him up our whole instance was RESET. All the trash was back, and we started at the beginning of the instance, instead of the menagerie checkpoint where we left off the night before.

We all dropped group and zoned in individually, which put the 4 of us who had completed the first five bosses the night before back in the menagerie at the checkpoint. We formed the group there. We then had to find a tank that had killed all 5 bosses, and was on the same checkpoint as us in order to continue directly to Shade of Medivh. Talk about a pain in the butt. It took us literally almost an hour to find a tank who was at the exact same progression spot as us in the Karazhan instance. This needs to be fixed before any tuning goes out.

-The gear. Holy crap some of the coolest effects come out of this place. Trinkets with sweet effects? Yes please. Cloak with passive +10% to crit heals? Yes please. The gear is definitely worth the difficulty level in this place, especially with WF/TF being a possibility.

To wrap up this post, I love Karazhan. The boss fights are well done, the trash isn't overwhelming at all. Once you get used to the layout, it's easy to navigate; especially once all the doors are open (rusty keys).

If Blizzard can fix the issue with grouping and resetting the instance completely, or not bringing the new person up to the group leader's progression point, it will become my new favorite instance... until it's not.
We wiped twice on the last Boss and we got placed back in the Library which was a short run back. Was this a new change since the OP because that wasn't a long run at all.
Kara, the greatest raid they ever made is now the greatest dungeon they ever made.

Good job, Blizz. Top notch.

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