Flow (usually) beats RoP. Here's why.

Mage
10/20/2016 09:31 AMPosted by Baege
So basically take IF because you can't find a 10 second window to stay within a circumference of 16 yards.


I don't know what version of wow you are playing, but for us in this current version, RoP is about a 1 yard circumference.
10/20/2016 10:28 AMPosted by ßrandön
10/20/2016 09:31 AMPosted by Baege
So basically take IF because you can't find a 10 second window to stay within a circumference of 16 yards.


I don't know what version of wow you are playing, but for us in this current version, RoP is about a 1 yard circumference.


Have you actually tested the spell?

The boundaries of the glyph are not the boundaries of its effect.
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I don't know what version of wow you are playing, but for us in this current version, RoP is about a 1 yard circumference.


Have you actually tested the spell?

The boundaries of the glyph are not the boundaries of its effect.


Isn't it an 8 yard diameter ? Also,circumference is the distance around the outside of a circle.
10/20/2016 10:30 AMPosted by Riisi
10/20/2016 10:28 AMPosted by ßrandön
...

I don't know what version of wow you are playing, but for us in this current version, RoP is about a 1 yard circumference.


Have you actually tested the spell?

The boundaries of the glyph are not the boundaries of its effect.


Well F me in my taint you are right... wtf was the point in blizzard reducing the animation size then...
I followed the same logic as the OP for the first month and a half of the expansion. I though I'd rather take a 12.5% average DPS increase over a whiffable temporary 50% buff.

I was wrong.

While there may be fights where IF might be better than RoP, I grossly overestimated the difficulty in making full use RoP. Even on a fight like Cenarius etc, it's not hard to find a time to stand still(ish) for 10 seconds.

Mages rely on burst windows and RoP multiplies those windows. When Icy Veins is giving you a 20s 30% haste buff and a 20% damage increase, and you can multiply that by an addition 50% from RoP, the amount your damage increases from RoP ends up being far in excess of the average IF buff.

I don't care if you're a good mage or a bad mage, if you have a passing knowledge of boss mechanics you can find a 10s window to blow your load safely.
10/20/2016 09:31 AMPosted by Baege
So basically take IF because you can't find a 10 second window to stay within a circumference of 16 yards.


Or take it if you decide you don't want to play your mage like a trained stand in the circle monkey.

I get the perk of standing in a circle of power like a trained monkey and stacking buffs, but it feels restricting. Trinkets that boosted spellpower used to be a bigger thing, lined up with cooldowns, and were placed ON The caster where movement would hurt but not potentially eliminate the buff.

BUT TEH CIRCLE RANGE IS LARGE - I don't care. Even if it was the entire floor of a boss fight, mixing that ugly spell in the rotation offends me. It's not even instant cast. Trinkets can be macroed to apply instantly, rune of power takes long as hell to cast, and messes up the "flow" of my rotations.

Oh wait guyz, let me put up my damage circle so I hit harder than a wet noodle. for a 10s window before I drop off into the abyss, if I line everything up with this clunkiness that feels AWFUL I can do more damage.

Screw that. Screw abilities that DEMONSTRABLY make the class less fun and fluid to play. A trinket does NOTHING but enhance things, I used to have macros for trinkets and arcane power as I launched into my volleys, it ENHANCED the feeling in all respects. That is NOT rune of power.

You all dare, you DARE suggest we drop down on bended knee, defeated and BROKEN like the rest of you chasing little boosts of dps in exchange for making the entire class feel like more of a chore.

I refuse. I refuse to use that spell. It won't matter though, too many mages as we see on these forums and elsewhere have already bent the knee, they are like those orcs that accepted the Fel.

I will break you all, you think that little boost will be enough?
Jonaleth, you've learned nothing from your exile.
I dislike the spell too but standing relatively still for 10s every 40s isn't the end of the world.

Most of the time I'm standing still anyway, why are you moving around so much?
i dont think its news to anyone that if you are bad then of course taing the passive talent is gonna increase your dps
Original poster hit it dead on:

Rune of Power is capable of producing higher dps than Rune of Power because the effect is magnified if stacked with a burn cycle. This effect becomes more pronounced the stronger the burn.

This is as it should be: An ability that is activated and requires more skill to use should be superior when played well than a purely passive ability. And when played poorly the passive ability should be better.

Do I dislike Rune of Power? ... not so much actually.

I couldn't stand it last expansion. So much so that I refused to use it and stuck with Incanter's.

But this expansion is different. I don't have to stand in the Rune the whole fight... just during burn phases. And the increase to damage is so strong it's actually quite satisfying to use.

Note also that you don't have to stand on the Rune. Standing near it is sufficient to get the buff. At a guess, I'd say the actual circle you need to stand in is about 3x the diameter of the graphic on the ground.

Personally, I'm fine with the current implementation of Rune of Power.
10/20/2016 11:09 AMPosted by Jonaléth
10/20/2016 09:31 AMPosted by Baege
So basically take IF because you can't find a 10 second window to stay within a circumference of 16 yards.


Or take it if you decide you don't want to play your mage like a trained stand in the circle monkey.

I get the perk of standing in a circle of power like a trained monkey and stacking buffs, but it feels restricting. Trinkets that boosted spellpower used to be a bigger thing, lined up with cooldowns, and were placed ON The caster where movement would hurt but not potentially eliminate the buff.

BUT TEH CIRCLE RANGE IS LARGE - I don't care. Even if it was the entire floor of a boss fight, mixing that ugly spell in the rotation offends me. It's not even instant cast. Trinkets can be macroed to apply instantly, rune of power takes long as hell to cast, and messes up the "flow" of my rotations.

Oh wait guyz, let me put up my damage circle so I hit harder than a wet noodle. for a 10s window before I drop off into the abyss, if I line everything up with this clunkiness that feels AWFUL I can do more damage.

Screw that. Screw abilities that DEMONSTRABLY make the class less fun and fluid to play. A trinket does NOTHING but enhance things, I used to have macros for trinkets and arcane power as I launched into my volleys, it ENHANCED the feeling in all respects. That is NOT rune of power.

You all dare, you DARE suggest we drop down on bended knee, defeated and BROKEN like the rest of you chasing little boosts of dps in exchange for making the entire class feel like more of a chore.

I refuse. I refuse to use that spell. It won't matter though, too many mages as we see on these forums and elsewhere have already bent the knee, they are like those orcs that accepted the Fel.

I will break you all, you think that little boost will be enough?


yikes @ ur brain
I am just going to point out, that your DPS does NOT drop to zero during the cast time of RoP. Ignite, the Artifact dot from fire blast, living bomb and any other trinket dots you might have on the target add up to some damage. In the case of Ignite, it might be your most damaging ability in certain fights.
10/19/2016 09:50 PMPosted by Manabender
A while back, I got into a rather heated argument comparing Rune of Power and Incanter's Flow, two talents on the same tier. I mentioned that I always pick Flow, but couldn't really properly explain why because I was preoccupied at the time. Basically, their argument took the form of "lol u bad".

They're not wrong. I'm bad. Terrible, really. I derive skill by hedging against my lack of it. In the heat of combat, I make mistakes like Dragonforce makes identical songs. But that doesn't stop me from thoerycrafting.

Quick aside: I'm not analyzing Mirror Image (the third choice on that tier) because it requires information that I just can't be bothered to look up; I'm just comparing RoP and Flow. Additionally, this analysis should be spec-independent; it should be correct for arcane, fire, and frost in somewhat comparable measures. Lastly, this is only pertinent to PvE; PvP is something that is much harder to analyze, to speak nothing of how irredeemably horrible I am at it.

Before we continue, I should lay down a few assumptions. For the time being, ignore the fact that some of them are wrong.

-Discounting these two talents, a line graph of DPS over time is a perfectly flat line at y=(total_damage/fight_time). This means that, for example, if I do 300k DPS, then, over any given n-second interval, exactly n*300k damage was dealt.
-A fight lasts 450 seconds, or 7.5 minutes.
-GCD cap is 0.5sec at absolute minimum. (I honestly don't know what it is these days, but good luck getting the haste for a 0.5s GCD anyway.)

The benefit of Flow is easy to compute; 12%. This is simply the average increase it provides.

The benefit of RoP is a bit tougher. A naive approach would say that since it gives 50% for 10 seconds out of every 40, it gives 12.5% more damage. However, RoP has a cast time, whereas Flow does not. During this cast time, DPS is 0. A bit of arithmetic shows that, for RoP to average a 12% increase, it has to have a cast time (after haste) of 0.2s. This is below the GCD, so it has to be slower, and thus, the overall average gain is less. To give a concrete number, assuming that you cast RoP on cooldown, you'll get 12 in a fight (of 450 seconds), and if RoP has a cast time of 1s, the overall increase is 10.66 (repeating, of course) percent.

So, if Flow is better, why isn't everyone using it? Why does Icy Veins suggest RoP instead? Why does every skilled mage want to punch me in the face right now?

Remember how I told you to ignore the fact that the given assumptions are wrong? You can stop ignoring that now. The first assumption is dead wrong. (Your mileage may vary on the effect of the other assumptions being wrong, but it's the first one that's the game-changer.)

Damage is dealt at semi-irregular intervals. In some intervals, there's a ton of damage. In others, there's much less. Flow is still stable enough to still provide about 12% more DPS in almost any situation, even despite the irregular DPS/time curve.

RoP, however, targets specific 10-second intervals. This allows you to more than make up for the 1.33% computed difference, if you use RoP during your most bursty moments.

However...

This doesn't account for unfortunate things happening. Flow doesn't care what happens; it'll average 12% (or very close to it) no matter what you do. RoP, however, does care. If you ever have to move out of RoP, or if you fail to use RoP during your most bursty moments, its benefit starts dropping substantially.

This is why I always use Flow. I don't trust myself to be able to reliably use RoP to its fullest. Like I said before, I derive skill by hedging against my lack of it, and this is exactly what Flow offers.

TL;DR: If you have to ask someone else whether Rune of Power or Incanter's Flow is better, then, for YOU, Flow is better. If that statement makes you want to punch me in the face, then for YOU, RoP is better.

In other words, good design, Blizz!


A good analysis that includes just enough layman for the everyplayer to comprehend, and enough theory to keep the hardcore player intrigued. Nicely done, and you're quite right: If you have to ask, then Flow is better. If you went ahead and chose RoP without a moment's hesitation, then that's better.

TLDR: Flow's contribution is simple to compute, but Rune of Power's is impossible due to irregular burst and having to move in and out of danger zones. There are no mathematical variables for those occurrences--none.

For me, I chose Flow because of those incalculable variables. I've struggled too much with fitting RoP's cast time into a proper rotation, and have had too many experiences of not being able to use my own buff due to having to move away. I like predictable, and that's Flow.
There isn't really a discussion to be had RoP allows you to decide when to be most powerful. It's better all around because it forces you to think
10/20/2016 01:37 PMPosted by Powershell
There isn't really a discussion to be had RoP allows you to decide when to be most powerful. It's better all around because it forces you to think


There are a lot of fights in Heroic EN where you're not able to remain stationary or even within the same area for the full duration of ROP. On Heroic Ursoc for example I pulled about 230k with Flow and only 220k with RoP. Granted I was using Flow on the attempt we killed him.
10/20/2016 02:01 PMPosted by Notamage
10/20/2016 01:37 PMPosted by Powershell
There isn't really a discussion to be had RoP allows you to decide when to be most powerful. It's better all around because it forces you to think


There are a lot of fights in Heroic EN where you're not able to remain stationary or even within the same area for the full duration of ROP. On Heroic Ursoc for example I pulled about 230k with Flow and only 220k with RoP. Granted I was using Flow on the attempt we killed him.


I, uh, disagree 100%. In Heroic, standing within your rune for its full duration is quite simple. In Mythic, it's still perfectly doable, it will just require some forethought.
10/20/2016 11:20 AMPosted by Amoc
Jonaleth, you've learned nothing from your exile.


I had it right all along, all these sell out magelings, bending the knee to rune of power, this is what I will do to them all:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hk0sOGVSAP4

It is because of THEM that the blizzard gods deny us a better talent option, it is because of THEM that all of mages must be tempted with clunkyness or a bit more power. Once my thirst for power and finesse in mechanics was everything, now I hunger only for revenge, and I, WILL, HAVE IT !!!!!!!!!!
10/20/2016 02:30 PMPosted by Baege
10/20/2016 02:01 PMPosted by Notamage
...

There are a lot of fights in Heroic EN where you're not able to remain stationary or even within the same area for the full duration of ROP. On Heroic Ursoc for example I pulled about 230k with Flow and only 220k with RoP. Granted I was using Flow on the attempt we killed him.


I, uh, disagree 100%. In Heroic, standing within your rune for its full duration is quite simple. In Mythic, it's still perfectly doable, it will just require some forethought.

Yup. I mean if people are having trouble they could just set their boss mod to show upcoming mechanics on the main bars with less than 13 seconds left, and make the main timer bars big and red.
10/20/2016 02:30 PMPosted by Baege
<span class="truncated">...</span>

There are a lot of fights in Heroic EN where you're not able to remain stationary or even within the same area for the full duration of ROP. On Heroic Ursoc for example I pulled about 230k with Flow and only 220k with RoP. Granted I was using Flow on the attempt we killed him.


I, uh, disagree 100%. In Heroic, standing within your rune for its full duration is quite simple. In Mythic, it's still perfectly doable, it will just require some forethought.


Disagree all you'd like, but I'm still pulling 270-300k DPS average with Incanters Flow, with no noticeable difference between when I use RoP. As I mentioned, I'm also Arcane. So if you don't have any experience raiding as Arcane then perhaps you shouldn't attempt to dismantle my opinion.

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