Do Not Change Crusade.

Paladin
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The new crusade might be very good in pvp. Id take it if holy wrath was moved to the pvp tree. But according to some sims, it's currently a dps increase to not even choose a lvl100 talent.

This doesn't mean Blizz needs to buff 7.1 crusade, we just don't want it replacing the one we have now. it's going to completely screw our stats and more than likely all that mastery we've been avoiding lie the plague may be useful again. It's the complete opposite of how hard we got screwed in the prepatch.
10/17/2016 04:39 PMPosted by Arentus
10/17/2016 03:46 PMPosted by Ornyx
I'll send this over and try to get some clarification on what is exactly being changed so we can avoid relying on potentially incorrect datamined information.


What do you mean by "potentially incorrect datamined information"?

Up until the most recent PTR build, every datamined change was reflected on the PTR version. As of right now, Crusade isn't even functioning on the PTR, and the tooltip has reverted to the live version (except all of the numbers are replaced with 0).

I assume this is a PTR bug that you're seeing.

An update on this from the development team: we've reverted the change on PTR that folks were seeing from datamined information. Crusade will be staying the same in 7.1 as it is on live currently.

We may take another look at this skill in the future (design-wise), however, and when and if we do so we will look to the community for feedback.

Thanks for your feedback on this everyone!
10/17/2016 05:15 PMPosted by Ornyx
10/17/2016 04:39 PMPosted by Arentus
...

What do you mean by "potentially incorrect datamined information"?

Up until the most recent PTR build, every datamined change was reflected on the PTR version. As of right now, Crusade isn't even functioning on the PTR, and the tooltip has reverted to the live version (except all of the numbers are replaced with 0).

I assume this is a PTR bug that you're seeing.

An update on this from the development team: we've reverted the change on PTR that folks were seeing from datamined information. Crusade will be staying the same in 7.1 as it is on live currently.

We may take another look at this skill in the future (design-wise), however, and when and if we do so we will look to the community for feedback.

Thanks for your feedback on this everyone!


We did it?

did we do it?
10/17/2016 05:18 PMPosted by Socomm
10/17/2016 05:15 PMPosted by Ornyx
...
I assume this is a PTR bug that you're seeing.

An update on this from the development team: we've reverted the change on PTR that folks were seeing from datamined information. Crusade will be staying the same in 7.1 as it is on live currently.

We may take another look at this skill in the future (design-wise), however, and when and if we do so we will look to the community for feedback.

Thanks for your feedback on this everyone!


We did it?

did we do it?


There is still that pesky BoW mess as well....
10/17/2016 05:18 PMPosted by Socomm
<span class="truncated">...</span>
I assume this is a PTR bug that you're seeing.

An update on this from the development team: we've reverted the change on PTR that folks were seeing from datamined information. Crusade will be staying the same in 7.1 as it is on live currently.

We may take another look at this skill in the future (design-wise), however, and when and if we do so we will look to the community for feedback.

Thanks for your feedback on this everyone!


We did it?

did we do it?

You did it.*

*On this topic, at this time, in this instance, etc.
WE DID IT!!!!
10/17/2016 03:37 PMPosted by Berith
The argument that we have high Haste now and will only have much more later doesn't hold in light of changes to how secondaries scale in Legion. Secondaries this time around have been massively front loaded and will only increase slightly as the expansion moves on.

Blizzard has stated that this time around they are moving away from exponential growth of stats on gear. Secondaries scale linearly now and thus you gain much less. Also the argument ignore stat shifting as he start focusing on different stats as our weights shift around.

Crusade Haste is thus not an issue. Not to mention the proper fix if it was would be to make Crusade increase Haste/crit/Mastery for 1.5% each per stack, not this bastardized 2 button rotation from an era of 1 HoPo per GCD that just doesn't work with Legion's new fangled HoPo generation.

Poor argument made without me ch basis or game knowledge. Typically par for the course from. The usual suspect in this thread.


Even if stat increase is minor the fact remains that during crusade and heroism we hit the wall already, so any increase, even minor still hits the wall. The performance of the ability will not scale with gear. It will plateau, which is why fixing it now will be better in the long run. That's if its fixed correctly. The info we have now, well, its literally a dps increase not to pick crusade then to pick it (meaning DP is hands down the winner) in 7.1. Here's to good news from Ornyx!
10/17/2016 05:15 PMPosted by Ornyx
10/17/2016 04:39 PMPosted by Arentus
...

What do you mean by "potentially incorrect datamined information"?

Up until the most recent PTR build, every datamined change was reflected on the PTR version. As of right now, Crusade isn't even functioning on the PTR, and the tooltip has reverted to the live version (except all of the numbers are replaced with 0).

I assume this is a PTR bug that you're seeing.

An update on this from the development team: we've reverted the change on PTR that folks were seeing from datamined information. Crusade will be staying the same in 7.1 as it is on live currently.

We may take another look at this skill in the future (design-wise), however, and when and if we do so we will look to the community for feedback.

Thanks for your feedback on this everyone!


Ornyx, could you please, PLEASE, tell the dev team to at least look at other talents before trying to change the current ones that work? There is a reason why you see very little to no difference in what most players use. Make some of these other talents/abilities actually worth thinking about.
Thanks for listening Blizz
WE HAVE DID IT! THE WAR IS WON!
The light prevails.
Never before seen in the history of Wow.
Fantastic to hear thanks so much for relaying the info to the devs and getting back to us so quickly! Best Space Goat NA 2016 :)
10/17/2016 04:46 PMPosted by Richardfists
What about the marksmanship hunters who burst 800k in my main raid and end up sustaining 330k? What about the fire mages who burst that much and end up in the mid 300s? Your logic is flawed. A cooldown is a cooldown, and burst is burst; you shouldn't categorize the damage you do during a burst phase into the rest of your parse, it's not the point of the ability.

And a ele shaman that did 600k on burst damage and sustain 500k..

And this class got a buff, so pro blizzards logic
...

We did it?

did we do it?

You did it.*

*On this topic, at this time, in this instance, etc.


MASSIVE sigh of relief.

Condolences to those that were looking forward to the return of Hammer Spam. Perhaps now the Dev team can consider scrubbing Holy Wrath in favor of the hammer machine gun play style that a contingent would like to see return? Honestly Holy Wrath makes no sense outside of PVP. Standing in bad to activate Shield of Vengeance is bad enough, healers would !@#$ bricks if every paladin started intentionally playing like their heads were up their @$$ to get use out of their 3 minute CD.
...

We did it?

did we do it?

You did it.*

*On this topic, at this time, in this instance, etc.


I have been here since classic and while I do not particularly care for Paladins you have to be the hardest working CM I've ever seen. I appreciate you and how much you help the community even when a bunch of 'em throw apple cores at you.
Can we sticky this thread? That way everyone can check the stickies to see the good news.
No one can hide from the light!
Inb4 7.1 delayed a month to find some other way to nerf rets.

No i'm joking. The polite thing to do at this point is to offer our thanks.
I think that there's actually a reasonable justification for at least the consideration for the crusade change.

Mastery sucks. One of the main reasons it sucks is because of the ratio of Judgment and Holy Power spenders that we use relative to the Builders that we use.

If you straight up buff Mastery, we would be able to do a lot of burst, as it would benefit our highest-damage spells more than our lowest-damage spells.

One of the talents that helps mastery is Divine Purpose, which straight up increases the number of spenders we use relative to builders. However, that's on the same tier as Crusade which is pretty much mandatory.

Changing crusade could be a way to bring some balance to that talent tier. Making the change to crusade would increase the number of mastery-affected abilities during the buff. We would lose damage due to the loss of haste, but we would gain some damage due to the increased damage of judgment over crusader strike.

Ultimately, it could be balanced to the point that crusade and divine purpose are similarly powerful, and that you would choose crusade if you wanted to do high burst DPS for 20-30 seconds, and divine purpose if you wanted to do sustained increased DPS over time.

Also, there's a funny interaction between crusade and heroism and your character's natural haste which does change the relevance of the haste buff as you get GCD locked.

However, with the implementation that was on the PTR, it wouldn't really work out. We currently rely too heavily on crusade to deal damage, and we can stack it really fast. The implementation on the PTR stacked too slowly, and it is a pretty significant damage reduction overall. It would be hard to manage to make that change and keep paladins from becoming too weak at the same time (or too strong if you overcompensated.)

I agree with the idea to not fix what ain't broke.

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