So Much For Promises

General Discussion
Prev 1 6 7 8 14 Next
10/06/2016 07:57 AMPosted by Shämwów
I know... and I did (check my activity if you want)... and many more will follow me because of the exact attitude you are displaying right now. It's the same as the Devs. "We know what's fun if you don't like it GTFO". Blizz actually tries to be more diplomatic... tries to convince players who know what they like that "it isn't that bad" or "try it we swear we know what's fun for you".

This is not structure.... it's a subscription retention tactic that will fail miserably. You might want to think about the fact that I believe there is a huge upswell against some of the decisions Blizzard has made now (and it didn't just start... people hated several of the most controversial ideas from announcement, like RNG legendaries). They will lose a lot of subs... I predict in nine months it will be under 4 million without drastic changes. That could mean that Blizz doesn't plan many future expansions. If they are in the 3 million sub range, the next one could be the last (if it happens).


I simply recognize that there is an innate conflict created by differences in how people have fun, as well as that resources (including labor) are limited, and that for both of those reasons it is a fool's errand to try to make everyone happy. MMORPGs are games that naturally encourage and require players to do a diverse array of content to get the fullest experience possible. That's fine. It just means that they're games primarily for people who are at least tolerant of doing a diverse swath of content, if they don't outright enjoy doing so. Players who are more rigid in their demands are better suited for other games that offer a more narrow gameplay experience. Attempting to change WoW to appease those players would likely ruin it for the group that's actually suited for this type of game.
10/06/2016 08:04 AMPosted by Nixx
10/06/2016 07:57 AMPosted by Shämwów
I know... and I did (check my activity if you want)... and many more will follow me because of the exact attitude you are displaying right now. It's the same as the Devs. "We know what's fun if you don't like it GTFO". Blizz actually tries to be more diplomatic... tries to convince players who know what they like that "it isn't that bad" or "try it we swear we know what's fun for you".

This is not structure.... it's a subscription retention tactic that will fail miserably. You might want to think about the fact that I believe there is a huge upswell against some of the decisions Blizzard has made now (and it didn't just start... people hated several of the most controversial ideas from announcement, like RNG legendaries). They will lose a lot of subs... I predict in nine months it will be under 4 million without drastic changes. That could mean that Blizz doesn't plan many future expansions. If they are in the 3 million sub range, the next one could be the last (if it happens).


I simply recognize that there is an innate conflict created by differences in how people have fun, as well as that resources (including labor) are limited, and that for both of those reasons it is a fool's errand to try to make everyone happy. MMORPGs are games that naturally encourage and require players to do a diverse array of content to get the fullest experience possible. That's fine. It just means that they're games primarily for people who are at least tolerant of doing a diverse swath of content, if they don't outright enjoy doing so. Players who are more rigid in their demands are better suited for other games that offer a more narrow gameplay experience. Attempting to change WoW to appease those players would likely ruin it for the group that's actually suited for this type of game.


You seem to be missing the main point though. That many ways people DID enjoy the game have been swept out from under them and placed in spots they didn't want to go to begin with.

For example I see many people who DESPISE pvp, yet feel "forced" (They arent. I hate that word lol) to go and do it to continue on playing the way they enjoy.

That is a valid point you cannot refute. Because it is based on a personal perception.

EDIT: The forums are fairly childish here. You present your arguments rationally and calmly. Far more nicely than I ever would.

But because people disagree with you they want to silence you in any way they can. Hence downvotes lol. I may disagree with you but you are a rare gem genuinely interested in conversation.
...

So what I'm understanding is, people are getting upset that other people did more content for more rewards and that's somehow unfair because they want the reward without having to do the content?

Or am I misunderstanding something?


If it's content they have no desire to do then yes. Never has this much content required you to do things that may not appeal to you.

To put it in perspective.....what if to PvP or to run Mythic+ people were required to do pet battles for rep or some kind of currency? You think people would be happy that have no desire to do pet battles.

It's real easy for people to say it's not a big deal until it impacts their enjoyment of the game.


Alright so the problem is the reward being tied to a certain type of content.

What if say it was possible to get the same rewards via class halls by sending out your champions and minions on a dispatch with a recipe being a reward?

Now that I understand somewhat of where you guys are seeing things, why not instead of just saying "we need more options to get rewards", try coming up with ideas and suggestions of other possible ways to get said rewards.
10/06/2016 08:15 AMPosted by Espiritos
...

If it's content they have no desire to do then yes. Never has this much content required you to do things that may not appeal to you.

To put it in perspective.....what if to PvP or to run Mythic+ people were required to do pet battles for rep or some kind of currency? You think people would be happy that have no desire to do pet battles.

It's real easy for people to say it's not a big deal until it impacts their enjoyment of the game.


Alright so the problem is the reward being tied to a certain type of content.

What if say it was possible to get the same rewards via class halls by sending out your champions and minions on a dispatch with a recipe being a reward?

Now that I understand somewhat of where you guys are seeing things, why not instead of just saying "we need more options to get rewards", try coming up with ideas and suggestions of other possible ways to get said rewards.
no. Im not being paid for my ideas nor is it likely they will see the light of day.

In our position it is far more valuable to critique current content we use than to offer suggestions. (THAT ISNT TO SAY that suggestions dont make it through because they do. Im just a defeatist in this aspect)
10/06/2016 08:11 AMPosted by Snoramynna
10/06/2016 08:04 AMPosted by Nixx
...

I simply recognize that there is an innate conflict created by differences in how people have fun, as well as that resources (including labor) are limited, and that for both of those reasons it is a fool's errand to try to make everyone happy. MMORPGs are games that naturally encourage and require players to do a diverse array of content to get the fullest experience possible. That's fine. It just means that they're games primarily for people who are at least tolerant of doing a diverse swath of content, if they don't outright enjoy doing so. Players who are more rigid in their demands are better suited for other games that offer a more narrow gameplay experience. Attempting to change WoW to appease those players would likely ruin it for the group that's actually suited for this type of game.


You seem to be missing the main point though. That many ways people DID enjoy the game have been swept out from under them and placed in spots they didn't want to go to begin with.

For example I see many people who DESPISE pvp, yet feel "forced" (They arent. I hate that word lol) to go and do it to continue on playing the way they enjoy.

That is a valid point you cannot refute. Because it is based on a personal perception.

EDIT: The forums are fairly childish here. You present your arguments rationally and calmly. Far more nicely than I ever would.

But because people disagree with you they want to silence you in any way they can. Hence downvotes lol. I may disagree with you but you are a rare gem genuinely interested in conversation.


Really... maybe you should go read there post where they say a certain group has no business playing this game & there just a cancer. Yep pretty rational to me. Sure is a gem alright.
10/06/2016 08:19 AMPosted by Merlwyn
10/06/2016 08:11 AMPosted by Snoramynna
...

You seem to be missing the main point though. That many ways people DID enjoy the game have been swept out from under them and placed in spots they didn't want to go to begin with.

For example I see many people who DESPISE pvp, yet feel "forced" (They arent. I hate that word lol) to go and do it to continue on playing the way they enjoy.

That is a valid point you cannot refute. Because it is based on a personal perception.

EDIT: The forums are fairly childish here. You present your arguments rationally and calmly. Far more nicely than I ever would.

But because people disagree with you they want to silence you in any way they can. Hence downvotes lol. I may disagree with you but you are a rare gem genuinely interested in conversation.


Really... maybe you should go read there post where they say a certain group has no business playing this game & there just a cancer. Yep pretty rational to me. Sure is a gem alright.

Yeah so what? If you found out einstein was a superdouche would you claim his math was wrong?
Get out of here with your appeal to emotion. I dont buy into that garbage.
Espiritos says:
"Now that I understand somewhat of where you guys are seeing things, why not instead of just saying "we need more options to get rewards", try coming up with ideas and suggestions of other possible ways to get said rewards."

How about... Oh, I don't know... "To get crafting rewards, you do crafting things!"

Why do I need Exalted in Highmountain and Stormheim, and win rated BGs to get the rank 3 blacksmithing recipes?

Highmountain I can almost see, as the Anvil you need is there. But why not have the guys at the anvil have their own rep, which you earn by crafting stuff... and have THEM sell you the recipes based on rep? Tune it so you get the rank 3 bracer recipe very quickly, because of the Obliterum quest, then go up from there based on stat weight? The Breastplate would be last, as it's the best one.
10/05/2016 06:18 PMPosted by Silk
get our gear


10/05/2016 06:18 PMPosted by Silk
So why am I forced to enter a PVP area to do tailoring? Why am I forced to do dungeons to do herbalism? Why am I forced to to do raids to do alchemy? Why am I forced to spend hours working on VANILLA reps in order to do LEGION engineering?


they meant gear drops not professions.. not sure how you can't see the difference

they never said anything about professions having the same flexibility
10/06/2016 08:26 AMPosted by Idolla
Espiritos says:
"Now that I understand somewhat of where you guys are seeing things, why not instead of just saying "we need more options to get rewards", try coming up with ideas and suggestions of other possible ways to get said rewards."

How about... Oh, I don't know... "To get crafting rewards, you do crafting things!"

Why do I need Exalted in Highmountain and Stormheim, and win rated BGs to get the rank 3 blacksmithing recipes?

Highmountain I can almost see, as the Anvil you need is there. But why not have the guys at the anvil have their own rep, which you earn by crafting stuff... and have THEM sell you the recipes based on rep? Tune it so you get the rank 3 bracer recipe very quickly, because of the Obliterum quest, then go up from there based on stat weight? The Breastplate would be last, as it's the best one.


Alright good idea. Although the douche attitude could be fixed :)
10/06/2016 07:46 AMPosted by Lexxee
My mining is stuck at 783/800. I mine every mine I come across doing nightfallen dailies and world quest. I did not do the dungeon quest for mining. I don't know why it won't complete other than not doing that dungeon quest because I've not gotten any advance in mining for weeks of mining.


What's funny about that mining quest is it does nothing to actually advance your skill. It rewards no profession points and it rewards no follow up quests. (Do not be surprised if the words, "THAT'S IT?" escape your lips after completing the quest.)

Instead, you are awarded the chance to randomly learn the second rank mining skills for the various felslate mining nodes by doing the same things in the open world that you've been doing since your first day in the expansion.
10/06/2016 06:51 AMPosted by Lexxee
10/06/2016 04:42 AMPosted by Norgred
...

How are professions a method of character progression? I mean they don't help you down things quicker out in the world, they don't help you survive. TheI only real use is for gaining gold and the items they provide which are outdone by other things as expansions go on. Crafting in this game us quite subpar compared to other games.


It's called fun, having fun doing something you enjoy in the game. Something Blizzard decided to take out and add in stressful gates.


That's great if professions are fun to you but the game has always been about combat. Professions are a side thing. I love professions, I was a miner/blacksmith in UO back in 2000. I used to be at the smithy at nights repairing warriors armor for them. That game did professions right. Same with SWG. Here professions are not an end game. They are just used as a means to an end for more combat. If professions were more fleshed out then I could understand but in this game they are glorifled time sinks. I mean, honestly, you could remove them and nothing about how the game is designed would really change too much.
Blizzard is weird. They cannot stand to make anything truly "optional".

It's almost as if they have so little confidence in the intrinsic fun of their activities that they must put some exclusive carrot behind it fearing players won't do them.
10/06/2016 08:11 AMPosted by Snoramynna
You seem to be missing the main point though. That many ways people DID enjoy the game have been swept out from under them and placed in spots they didn't want to go to begin with.

For example I see many people who DESPISE pvp, yet feel "forced" (They arent. I hate that word lol) to go and do it to continue on playing the way they enjoy.

That is a valid point you cannot refute. Because it is based on a personal perception.


I've been playing since BC. If you aren't familiar with the expansion, back then you often had to go to dungeons to get a lot of basic recipes, and they weren't even guaranteed quest rewards. They were random drops or tied to factions you'd have to grind those dungeons repeatedly to get to the appropriate rep level with. Some of the most useful recipes in the game were low chance BoP drops from raiding, and the BoE recipes often made BoP gear, which necessitated having a particular profession to get that benefit. I really enjoyed BC professions overall, more than any other time in the game. This game has shifted away from that model and they gained and I lost as a result. Now the game is shifting ever so slightly back in the direction I want.

Why do I point that out? Because the way they enjoyed the game that has been swept out from under them was merely a result of the way I enjoyed the game being swept out from under me. I understand that happens from time to time. I accept that it happens. It's the nature of playing a game like this, which is constantly changing and has to be changed to appeal to a wide variety of people. That's the whole thing though. For the most part I am incredibly adaptable when it comes to game changes. I am suited for this type of game, which is in a never ending state of flux.

Who is "more deserving" of having their way though? What they want is directly at odds with what I want, and no doubt we're both directly at odds with what some third party wants. Their version also requires Blizzard to spend additional resources to craft all of the supposed options (though when one option ends up being easier than the others, real or perceived easiness will naturally shape player behavior, making the others mostly wasted), which will detract from resources that can be used to develop novel content.

I can't deny that they feel "forced" to do x, y, or z, no, but I'm also don't take the view that feelings are some ultimate authority. I'm not saying they should be discounted entirely, but merely that it's not enough for someone to feel a way about a thing to change it.

Blizzard has often talked about how players follow the path of least resistance, and just as these players feel "forced" to PVP, if the proposal of allowing people to gain the same rewards from virtually any content were put in place, you'd see a large impact on player behavior trending towards participation in whatever avenue is viewed as easiest. It would largely be for the same reason that the people currently complaining are complaining too, which is the best part. It wouldn't make sense to deprive yourself of a recipe that comes from raiding if you can get it from doing a few pet battles instead, so people would do that, and it would instantly render the raid drop pointless and defeat the purpose of it existing at all, because people who care about professions would not really be advancing them via raiding and people who don't care about professions... don't care. Worse, if it spread to other things, like gear rewards, people would plain lose the ability to feel like they can progress their character via the content they enjoy, and isn't that what these people are complaining about in the first place?

And that's what it comes down to: It's very easy to simply say "Everything should work in an ideal manner for everyone," but in the real world, there are inescapable constraints. There is no such thing as a true one-size-fits-all, and someone else's fun necessitates someone else's lack of fun because people have fun in different ways and Blizzard can't feasibly design a content rich game to the specifications of each individual who wants a game that is rich in only one type of content. It's simply not possible. I've quit WoW for long periods on multiple occasions because I stopped having fun and I don't consider it a failure of Blizzard that I did so (other than perhaps WoD because... WoD). It's just how life works.

10/06/2016 08:11 AMPosted by Snoramynna
EDIT: The forums are fairly childish here. You present your arguments rationally and calmly. Far more nicely than I ever would.

But because people disagree with you they want to silence you in any way they can. Hence downvotes lol. I may disagree with you but you are a rare gem genuinely interested in conversation.


Pretty much. The vote system is stupid. Blizzard originally said it was added to encourage constructive posting, but it was quickly turned into little more than a meaningless popularity contest.
10/06/2016 08:04 AMPosted by Nixx

I simply recognize that there is an innate conflict created by differences in how people have fun, as well as that resources (including labor) are limited, and that for both of those reasons it is a fool's errand to try to make everyone happy. MMORPGs are games that naturally encourage and require players to do a diverse array of content to get the fullest experience possible. That's fine. It just means that they're games primarily for people who are at least tolerant of doing a diverse swath of content, if they don't outright enjoy doing so. Players who are more rigid in their demands are better suited for other games that offer a more narrow gameplay experience. Attempting to change WoW to appease those players would likely ruin it for the group that's actually suited for this type of game.


Of course you can't make everyone happy. The issue here is that, in my opinion, they have made several decisions which have negative impacts on large groups of players who did not feel that way in past expansions. There are large segments of players and components of the game which are being negatively impacted by poor decisions. Many of these poor decisions were unpopular when they were announced, yet Devs these days ignore feedback until the bottom line is hurt, which will absolutely happen without a rapid change in direction.

You say "narrow gameplay experience", but what do you call being locked into one spec of one character? That's the type of system Blizzard has created. You are mistaking an endless grind for a broad, diverse gameplay experience. How does putting unprecedented hurdles in front of maintaining secondary specs and alts broaden the gameplay experience?

As far as who Blizzard is appeasing this expansion. There's two obvious groups. Both of them play probably at least 50 hours per week on average. One is the ultra casual who plays a ton that loves they can play all day long doing tedious, easy as crap, boring dailies and get a legendary from it and pretty skins for their artifacts blah blah blah. The other is the Twitch/no job Mythic raider who can now grind all day long while gaining significant advantages for it, which was limited in every expansion at least since Wrath. And yes, they are, in fact signficant. There is one Trait, ONE (this trait is there for every dps spec), that gives you a larger damage increase than the flask for most DPS specs. So, good news guys, according to Blizzard, flasking is not required for Mythic raiding or any raiding for that matter. So save your gold! Oh and that also applies to eating food, potting, enchants, and everything else a raider doesn't need to do any more because they're not "significant"... they give less DPS than a single Trait on your artifact tree, and those are not significant. Isn't logic fun?

Let me give you guys a LPT... when someone says something like that... consider the source and think about if they have something to gain by painting a picture more rosy than the reality. If they do, you might want to second guess their statement instead of taking them at their word.

Appeasing those two groups of players has made a huge group of players who Blizzard has supported for 10+ years now feel ostracized... that this game is not for them. Can you blame us for speaking out and voicing our opinions? Can you blame us for quitting a game we don't feel is for us any more?

The drive for Blizzard here I think is obvious. Continue milking the players who will never quit and actually enjoy RNG and endless grinds (at least they think they do) for every dime possible and go into pure maintenance mode on the game. Create minimal actual content but introduce systems that make sure players will have to grind for months doing pointless crap so you have time to (hopefully) get a mediocre content patch in the game that will retain them.
10/05/2016 06:29 PMPosted by Senpai
There will NEVER be a day that everyone is satisfied so I just look at these threads and think...get over it.


pretty much... I hate these forums for just this reason...whiners
10/05/2016 06:29 PMPosted by Senpai
There will NEVER be a day that everyone is satisfied so I just look at these threads and think...get over it.


pretty much... I hate these forums for just this reason...whiners
10/06/2016 08:19 AMPosted by Merlwyn
Really... maybe you should go read there post where they say a certain group has no business playing this game & there just a cancer. Yep pretty rational to me. Sure is a gem alright.


Perhaps you should take the remarks I make less personally. It's not like saying that I think some people are not cut out for MMOs or that their rise in influence is bad for the game means I'm calling you terrible or worthless people.
10/06/2016 08:44 AMPosted by Nixx
10/06/2016 08:19 AMPosted by Merlwyn
Really... maybe you should go read there post where they say a certain group has no business playing this game & there just a cancer. Yep pretty rational to me. Sure is a gem alright.


Perhaps you should take the remarks I make less personally. It's not like saying that I think some people are not cut out for MMOs or that their rise in influence is bad for the game means I'm calling you terrible or worthless people.


Dont worry babe. I'll do that for you. I've no compassion for these people and often times being belligerent is the only way they will even CONSIDER your position.

You know, because they believe they are right at all times.
The upside to all of this is that it makes botting less effective and less frequent since there's a time commitment to get efficiency out of the professions... Just a thought.
You say "narrow gameplay experience", but what do you call being locked into one spec of one character? That's the type of system Blizzard has created. You are mistaking an endless grind for a broad, diverse gameplay experience. How does putting unprece\dented hurdles in front of maintaining secondary specs and alts broaden the gameplay experience?


This is why I have such a hard time taking people seriously.

What unprecedented hurdles are there in front of alts? I will give you that it is the case for secondary specs, at least going back a few expansions (pre-dual spec you simply didn't use secondary specs for the most part). It's something I'm also somewhat critical of, but I'm willing to sit back and see how it plays out and let them try their thing.

Alts though? The only hurdles are get to friendly with five factions, four of which are guaranteed to get to friendly on the quickest path to level cap. The fifth takes less than an hour. They're still changing that in 7.1, so as long as you have wqs unlocked on one character, you can unlock them immediately at 110 on other characters. The dungeon attunement is also not worse than ever before, as your alts in BC had to get heroic keys and attune for raids all on their own until they eased those requirements, and they're still also changing that in 7.1 so that as long as you've done it on one character, you can do it on other without going through Suramar. Flying? Nope. You earn that once and it's account-wide. Gearing? Nope. Way easier than it once was. Leveling? Fastest expansion yet.

I suppose there's also the thing with artifact knowledge, but quite frankly, the current system is reasonable and fine. I'll admit that it always feels bad to go from my now rank 7 main to my ranks 1-4 alts, but from a rational perspective, the amount I'm gaining on those alts is fine for where their weapons are and since I play them less than my main, I'll ultimately gain weapon levels on them much faster than on my main.

10/06/2016 08:43 AMPosted by Shämwów
As far as who Blizzard is appeasing this expansion. There's two obvious groups. Both of them play probably at least 50 hours per week on average. One is the ultra casual who plays a ton that loves they can play all day long doing tedious, easy as crap, boring dailies and get a legendary from it and pretty skins for their artifacts blah blah blah. The other is the Twitch/no job Mythic raider who can now grind all day long while gaining significant advantages for it, which was limited in every expansion at least since Wrath. And yes, they are, in fact signficant. There is one Trait, ONE (this trait is there for every dps spec), that gives you a larger damage increase than the flask for most DPS specs. So, good news guys, according to Blizzard, flasking is not required for Mythic raiding or any raiding for that matter. So save your gold! Oh and that also applies to eating food, potting, enchants, and everything else a raider doesn't need to do any more because they're not "significant"... they give less DPS than a single Trait on your artifact tree, and those are not significant.


So what? It's probably not as large as some gear upgrades, and people have managed just fine with those types of disparities since forever. There's no reason to burn yourself out trying to max your artifact level in a system that is designed to be incredibly unrewarding if you try that when you're just casually raiding anyway. The weapon is designed to be slow, but steady progression.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum