My Thoughts on Havoc Talents (PvP Focused)

Demon Hunter
Most of us can agree we are underrepresented at just about every level of ranked 3v3. If we can't agree on that, please take a look at http://www.arenamate.net/ and mess around with the filters.

Even though I think we are weak, I don't think we're unplayable and I also feel it wouldn't take that much to make us good again. Although Blizzard can always go the easy route of buffing damage, that's a poor way to go about it and doesn't address some of our core issues and extreme lack of utility.

First off, our Mobility is great and I won't be addressing it further than this. We are a bit weak against slows/roots but that's a justifiable counter to our otherwise amazing mobility.

One of the main issues with DH is a lack of meaningful talent choices. We have a lot of extremely weak talents, but I'll just focus on the 102 and 108 rows because, to me, those are the worst offenders.

102:
Felblade and First Blood are entirely unused in both PvE and PvP. Bloodlet is still the go-to, even after the nerfs.

I would like to see the slow from Master of the Glaive become baseline and the two-charge mechanic be baked into the Bloodlet talent. Every melee needs at least one slow without taking a talent for it. Obviously, this will push Bloodlet even further ahead of the other two choices, which is why they need to be buffed so that First Blood is the best option for burst and Felblade is the best option for single-target damage.

108:

The entire row is terrible and needs to be redesigned. Master of the Glaive is good but only because we don't have a slow and its interaction with Bloodlet.

Unleashed Power needs to be redesigned and Chaos Nova should have its fury cost reduced (maybe to 20?). As it stands if you pool 100 fury and then use Chaos Nova, you only have enough fury for a single use of Chaos Strike, unless it crits. If Chaos Nova has a base of 20 fury then we can get two Chaos Strike uses if we pool 100 fury, and three if you get the +30 fury from our artifact and get a crit.

I don't even know what to say about Demon Reborn as it is probably the dumbest talent I've ever seen. It would be fine if Meta didn't have such a ridiculously long cooldown, but it does and that makes this talent useless.

I think the 108 row works fine as a utility row, but most of the talents are just giving us what we should already have baseline. There are any number of ways to redesign these talents, and Blizzard usually doesn't copy a talent straight from the forums, so I won't waste my time writing out specific talents. All I will say is that this row is a good opportunity to give us meaningful utility.

Edit: The 104 defensive row is also really poorly designed. Both Netherwalk and Desperate Instincts actually make us weaker because they disallow the use of Blur which is both a very strong defensive and mobility cooldown. Netherwalk will never be used because of its long cooldown and short duration and Desperate Instincts doesn't allow us to pre-Blur any damage or use it when we need the Fel Rush reset.

This leaves Soul Rending as our defensive option, which is good when we have Meta, but unfortunately Meta is a 4min cooldown which makes this pretty weak as well. The biggest problem with this row is that the first two talents make us weaker by using them.
Unparalleled mobility? Monks, especially WW's, beat us hands down. You analysis is shortsighted and self pandering to the class in regards to mobility.

WW's have Transcendence, Tiger's Lust or Yu'lon's Grace + Chi Torpedo, 2x Roll (Chi Torpedo if Yu'lon's is talented) and Flying Serpents Kick (x2 if Double Dragon is talented) or Tiger Style which allows Flying Serpents Kick to be manipulated during flight. While also having a on demand snare (disable) a 15 second incapacitate (Paralysis) a talented resource free AoE stun (Leg Sweep) and a talented AoE stun damaging ability that channels and moves with the WW (FoF + Heavy-Handed Strikes).

WW's, and arguably MW's, trump our Mobility, and WW's our now beating Havocs AOE and far out pacing their burst and ST damage.

So no, the class is all around weak and built around a 4 minute CD that relies on an additional 2 other talents (Nem and Chaos Blades) that forsake utility in favor of DPS (yet classes like Rogue, Monk, and Warrior don't give up for DPS for their mobility) to apply pressure in that 30 second window. Havoc also lacks peeling capabilities without MOTG and Cover of Darkness, of which further lowers team viability, insuring DH only plays "okay" with WW's and Arms having to rely on their on demand snares, stuns, and area denials.

I however agree Havocs talent tree and choices are sub-par, lacking, and found wanting.

Havoc has too many nonsensical and broken spells and talents: Why and How is Fel Rush still allowed and able to disconnect or crash the player from the game, fling them half way across the map, or move them only an inch? Why is Rain from Above still bugging players hot bars? Why is Eye of Leotheras not doing 4% of a casters health when they cast harmful effects? Why is Mana Break not doing its base damage? Why does the class have so many useless or counterintuitive talents:

* Netherwalk and Desperate Instincts is in the same line as Soul Rending, which insures that neither will be taken due to Havocs piss poor defensives and absolutely zero self-sustaining capabilities.

* Chaos Cleave and Blind Fury will never be taken over Fel Mastery in competitive situations (unless of course the talent is nerfed into oblivion).

* Fel Eruption is literally in a line of talents that give direct DPS % increases and is more a utility spell with damage.

* Demonic Appetite is simply too RNG to be reliable in any scenario and is just gimmicky to all hell.

* Felblade is Fire damage only and in turn makes the talent useless to Havoc short of being another gap closer at the expense of needed ST DPS.

* Master of the Glaive is over kill for a 108 that is taken more to up ST dmg and in turn hinders uptime in PVP for Havoc. The class needs a baseline snare and to have its utility talents actually enhance preexisting talents and not be a lazy fix for baseline issues.

* Demonic is pure lazy development and isn’t used in serious instances of PVE or PVP.

* Reverse Magic, Eye of Leotheras, Rain from Above, and Mana Break are all bugged or broken in same shape, form, or fashion.

TL;DR All in all the class needs an ST buff, a baseline snare, a talented or baseline root break, and to have its survivability reworked; while fixing all bugs and broken spells and talents.
10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
Unparalleled mobility? Monks, especially WW's, beat us hands down. You analysis is shortsighted and self pandering to the class in regards to mobility.


Yeah monks rival our mobility, but I would be hard pressed to say that they "beat us hands down." We have 3 baseline charges (Fel Rush x2 and Vengeful Retreat) and Blur can give us 2 more uses of Fel Rush. Vengeful can be talented to reset Fel Rush which is really good vs MW monk and Fel Rush is only a 10 second recharge (compared to Roll at 20 seconds). In 7.1 we're also getting a root break on a 25 sec cooldown (15 if talented, which it usually is).

On a side-note, I've never been kited by any MW (even when fighting some of the best monks in the game) unless the enemy team is spam CCing/slowing me.

But it doesn't really matter, the point of my post was not to argue about the only other class in the game that can rival our mobility.

10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
* Netherwalk and Desperate Instincts is in the same line as Soul Rending, which insures that neither will be taken due to Havocs piss poor defensives and absolutely zero self-sustaining capabilities.


This is a good point that I forgot to mention, this row is incredibly weak for defense capabilities. Netherwalk will never be used because it's just terrible and Desperate Instincts doesn't allow us to pre-Blur any damage or use it when we need the Fel Rush reset. This leaves Soul Rending which is good when we have Meta, but unfortunately Meta is a 4min cooldown which makes this pretty weak as well. The biggest problem with this row is that the first two talents actually make us weaker if we take them.

10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
* Chaos Cleave and Blind Fury will never be taken over Fel Mastery in competitive situations (unless of course the talent is nerfed into oblivion).


Chaos Cleave can be good if you're sure you'll be able to hit two targets most of the game, but I mostly agree with you that those two talents don't compare to Fel Mastery.

10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
* Fel Eruption is literally in a line of talents that give direct DPS % increases and is more a utility spell with damage.


I think Fel Eruption is a really good ability, unfortunately it just doesn't compare to the other two talents.

10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
* Demonic Appetite is simply too RNG to be reliable in any scenario and is just gimmicky to all hell.


Agreed.

10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
* Felblade is Fire damage only and in turn makes the talent useless to Havoc short of being another gap closer at the expense of needed ST DPS.


Also agreed. Should be buffed and also made to do Chaos damage.

10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
* Reverse Magic, Eye of Leotheras, Rain from Above, and Mana Break are all bugged or broken in same shape, form, or fashion.


Yeah they should definitely fix the bugs. At least these spells are good, except for Eye of Leotheras.

Eye is completely useless because casters are usually good targets and bad players don't cast enough under pressure to make the talent worth it and good players will just have it dispelled instantly.

The other talent Unending Hated (which gives 5 fury when hit by a spell) is so incredibly situational that it's also almost useless. It's incredibly strong vs classes like aff locks, but in most situations its just worthless.
Your analysis is shortsighted


What do you expect.... sucka's blind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIWaJC3_-PE
10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
* Netherwalk and Desperate Instincts is in the same line as Soul Rending, which insures that neither will be taken due to Havocs piss poor defensives and absolutely zero self-sustaining capabilities.


Make them not replace blur. At the moment its not even used PVE due to this reason

I would like shorter CDs on many of our Honor abilities possibly.

  • Cloak of Darkness CD is far too long. Possibly make it 1.5 minutes.
  • Reverse magic to 30-35 seconds. It was originally this short I think. Rets have a similar ability at 25 seconds. And its not exactly rolling UA locks atm, which was the original reason they put it up to 1 min.
  • Detainment to 40 seconds
  • 10/08/2016 08:38 AMPosted by Helpimblínd
    10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
    Unparalleled mobility? Monks, especially WW's, beat us hands down. You analysis is shortsighted and self pandering to the class in regards to mobility.


    Yeah monks rival our mobility, but I would be hard pressed to say that they "beat us hands down." We have 3 baseline charges (Fel Rush x2 and Vengeful Retreat) and Blur can give us 2 more uses of Fel Rush. Vengeful can be talented to reset Fel Rush which is really good vs MW monk and Fel Rush is only a 10 second recharge (compared to Roll at 20 seconds). In 7.1 we're also getting a root break on a 25 sec cooldown (15 if talented, which it usually is).

    On a side-note, I've never been kited by any MW (even when fighting some of the best monks in the game) unless the enemy team is spam CCing/slowing me.

    But it doesn't really matter, the point of my post was not to argue about the only other class in the game that can rival our mobility.

    10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
    * Netherwalk and Desperate Instincts is in the same line as Soul Rending, which insures that neither will be taken due to Havocs piss poor defensives and absolutely zero self-sustaining capabilities.


    This is a good point that I forgot to mention, this row is incredibly weak for defense capabilities. Netherwalk will never be used because it's just terrible and Desperate Instincts doesn't allow us to pre-Blur any damage or use it when we need the Fel Rush reset. This leaves Soul Rending which is good when we have Meta, but unfortunately Meta is a 4min cooldown which makes this pretty weak as well. The biggest problem with this row is that the first two talents actually make us weaker if we take them.

    10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
    * Chaos Cleave and Blind Fury will never be taken over Fel Mastery in competitive situations (unless of course the talent is nerfed into oblivion).


    Chaos Cleave can be good if you're sure you'll be able to hit two targets most of the game, but I mostly agree with you that those two talents don't compare to Fel Mastery.

    10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
    * Fel Eruption is literally in a line of talents that give direct DPS % increases and is more a utility spell with damage.


    I think Fel Eruption is a really good ability, unfortunately it just doesn't compare to the other two talents.

    10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
    * Demonic Appetite is simply too RNG to be reliable in any scenario and is just gimmicky to all hell.


    Agreed.

    10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
    * Felblade is Fire damage only and in turn makes the talent useless to Havoc short of being another gap closer at the expense of needed ST DPS.


    Also agreed. Should be buffed and also made to do Chaos damage.

    10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
    * Reverse Magic, Eye of Leotheras, Rain from Above, and Mana Break are all bugged or broken in same shape, form, or fashion.


    Yeah they should definitely fix the bugs. At least these spells are good, except for Eye of Leotheras.

    Eye is completely useless because casters are usually good targets and bad players don't cast enough under pressure to make the talent worth it and good players will just have it dispelled instantly.

    The other talent Unending Hated (which gives 5 fury when hit by a spell) is so incredibly situational that it's also almost useless. It's incredibly strong vs classes like aff locks, but in most situations its just worthless.


    I loath Eye of Leotheras because it's not enough pressure and I think bugged in that it doesn't always reflect damage, and is overly obvious with that big friggen green arrow it places over the casters head.
    10/08/2016 03:33 PMPosted by Nyxz
    10/08/2016 08:03 AMPosted by Artigan
    * Netherwalk and Desperate Instincts is in the same line as Soul Rending, which insures that neither will be taken due to Havocs piss poor defensives and absolutely zero self-sustaining capabilities.


    Make them not replace blur. At the moment its not even used PVE due to this reason

    I would like shorter CDs on many of our Honor abilities possibly.

  • Cloak of Darkness CD is far too long. Possibly make it 1.5 minutes.
  • Reverse magic to 30-35 seconds. It was originally this short I think. Rets have a similar ability at 25 seconds. And its not exactly rolling UA locks atm, which was the original reason they put it up to 1 min.
  • Detainment to 40 seconds


  • Agreed to all this, also increase the range of cloak for darkness and while enemy players are in the darkness they have 50% movement speed reduction
    What are you guys opinions regarding our survivability outside meta?
    An idea I had for the T1 row
    Let me first start by showing how I would like to see the role of these choices.

    Tier 1 talent Row (Fury management)

    Live:
    Fel Mastery - Generates Fury (on Fel Rush)

    My idea for the other 2:
    Chaos Cleave - Refunds Fury (on Chaos Strike/Annihilation Critical hits)
    Blind Fury - Reduces cost of fury (on Eye Beam)

    Idea #1
    Chaos Cleave:
    Chaos Strike hits an additional target for 50% damage. Chaos Strike critical strike chance is increased by 50%

    Idea #2
    Chaos Cleave:
    Chaos Strike hits an additional target for 50% damage. Chaos Strike applies Seared Flesh. Seared Flesh increases Chaos Strike/Annihilation damage by 20% and Critical strike chance by 5% for 4 seconds. Stacks 3 times. Seared Flesh now becomes Fel Forged and stacks on the player while Metamorphosis is active increasing Chaos Strike/Annihilation damage by 20% and critical strike chance by 5% for 4 seconds. Stacks 3 times.

    Explanation:
    What this does is give a boost to single target and cleave damage passively but takes away the ability to generate fury from Fel Rush. This will make fury management more challenging but more rewarding. Also will allow a semi constant soft enrage ability for the Demon Hunter if pulled off correctly and a burst if timed at the right time by taking advantage of the target "Seared Flesh" debuff x3 and your Fel Forged buff x3 for maybe 1 hit before the debuff falls off for 120% more damage with 30% extra crit chance.

    Blind Fury:
    Increases the duration of Eye Beam by 50%. Eye Beam cool down and fury cost reduced by 50%

    Explanation:
    What this does is make Eye Beam a more integral part of our rotation.

    Please share your thoughts and tweaks.
    We currently only have 1 viable PvE build and it is our best AoE, Cleave, and Single Target build. We need a designated single target build. My suggestion is to make Fel Blade deal chaos damage and apply momentum.
    In 7.1 we're also getting a root break on a 25 sec cooldown (15 if talented, which it usually is).


    pretty sure it removes snares in 7.1, not roots
    osted by Artigan
    * Demonic Appetite is simply too RNG to be reliable in any scenario and is just gimmicky to all hell.


    I was in the same frame of mind,running it now miss lowered CD on retreat but think its a better choice range never seems to be more then a blade dance away now.

    10/08/2016 04:38 PMPosted by Artigan
    I loath Eye of Leotheras because it's not enough pressure and I think bugged in that it doesn't always reflect damage, and is overly obvious with that big friggen green arrow it places over the casters head.


    Find it amazing myself Fire/Frost mages,Boomies all works well even most melee frost DK's ,F druid's,Rets.

    Sure the green light above players head gives it away or player stops casting for 6 seconds kinda thought that was the point but.

    10/10/2016 09:45 AMPosted by Keidros
    What are you guys opinions regarding our survivability outside meta?


    Not great but I hardly ever see players Killing totems (with 10 hp) or lesser pets aka Shadow priest (also low hp),mages,locks for a 500k heal

    More to the point but the OP is looking at PvE tier for PvP buff's we should focus on the PvP talents not that there any better just makes for easier balance.
    bump
    DH isn't heading into a great direction...
    Hah! Havoc has it so much better than arms warrior
    10/24/2016 12:18 PMPosted by Mcbone
    Hah! Havoc has it so much better than arms warrior


    Though I agree warriors are incredibly weak, I'm not sure we have it "so much better"

    10/11/2016 03:08 AMPosted by Scuzzup
    More to the point but the OP is looking at PvE tier for PvP buff's we should focus on the PvP talents not that there any better just makes for easier balance.


    I agree we should look at PvP talents, I was originally going to add a section about them but then didn't have time. I addressed the normal talents because they are the foundation of our class and are extremely flawed. The PvP talents can fix viability but not the fundamental design flaws that plague our regular talents (there are also a lot more problems with our regular talent tree than just what I listed)
    Master of glaives should be baseline, we literally have 2 glaives in our hands to throw. Blizz is ruining my immersion.
    i dont agree about the 102 talents part, most of the dh use bloodlet, still i dont think its the way to go, felblade do a better single target dps than bloodlet, bloodlet its a lie to dh final damage and his true potential of damage inside an arena, aoe is for pve inside arena is completely useless especially in 3x3.
    first blood if the better of 3 by far to do damage, felblade is for more mobility, bloodlet only utility to me is to not let feral or rogues just get invisible while running
    Most of us can agree we are underrepresented at just about every level of ranked 3v3. If we can't agree on that, please take a look at http://www.arenamate.net/ and mess around with the filters.

    Even though I think we are weak, I don't think we're unplayable and I also feel it wouldn't take that much to make us good again. Although Blizzard can always go the easy route of buffing damage, that's a poor way to go about it and doesn't address some of our core issues and extreme lack of utility.

    First off, our Mobility is great and I won't be addressing it further than this. We are a bit weak against slows/roots but that's a justifiable counter to our otherwise amazing mobility.

    One of the main issues with DH is a lack of meaningful talent choices. We have a lot of extremely weak talents, but I'll just focus on the 102 and 108 rows because, to me, those are the worst offenders.

    102:
    Felblade and First Blood are entirely unused in both PvE and PvP. Bloodlet is still the go-to, even after the nerfs.

    I would like to see the slow from Master of the Glaive become baseline and the two-charge mechanic be baked into the Bloodlet talent. Every melee needs at least one slow without taking a talent for it. Obviously, this will push Bloodlet even further ahead of the other two choices, which is why they need to be buffed so that First Blood is the best option for burst and Felblade is the best option for single-target damage.

    108:

    The entire row is terrible and needs to be redesigned. Master of the Glaive is good but only because we don't have a slow and its interaction with Bloodlet.

    Unleashed Power needs to be redesigned and Chaos Nova should have its fury cost reduced (maybe to 20?). As it stands if you pool 100 fury and then use Chaos Nova, you only have enough fury for a single use of Chaos Strike, unless it crits. If Chaos Nova has a base of 20 fury then we can get two Chaos Strike uses if we pool 100 fury, and three if you get the +30 fury from our artifact and get a crit.

    I don't even know what to say about Demon Reborn as it is probably the dumbest talent I've ever seen. It would be fine if Meta didn't have such a ridiculously long cooldown, but it does and that makes this talent useless.

    I think the 108 row works fine as a utility row, but most of the talents are just giving us what we should already have baseline. There are any number of ways to redesign these talents, and Blizzard usually doesn't copy a talent straight from the forums, so I won't waste my time writing out specific talents. All I will say is that this row is a good opportunity to give us meaningful utility.

    Edit: The 104 defensive row is also really poorly designed. Both Netherwalk and Desperate Instincts actually make us weaker because they disallow the use of Blur which is both a very strong defensive and mobility cooldown. Netherwalk will never be used because of its long cooldown and short duration and Desperate Instincts doesn't allow us to pre-Blur any damage or use it when we need the Fel Rush reset.

    This leaves Soul Rending as our defensive option, which is good when we have Meta, but unfortunately Meta is a 4min cooldown which makes this pretty weak as well. The biggest problem with this row is that the first two talents make us weaker by using them.


    I agree with everything you are saying but unfortionally I think you are looking at those talents from a PvP standpoint and I think blizzard is looking at them from a PVE standpoint. That is basically what PvP talents are.

    That being said talents like Master and Unleashed are still useful in PvE but they should 100% be baseline as it is ridiculous that 1 class must spec into all of their utility to make them good.

    My argument is those talents should all be baseline they definitely should 100% not exist. For Netherwalk's sake it was a good idea to use it on some mythic EN progression fights just due to gear....but once you have gear the talent is trash. So I cannot see them removing that talent and a few other crap ones BUT they hopefully will remove Demon Reborn as that talent is a !@#$ing insult to the community. Nice effort there guys.

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