Is this game for the devs or the customers?

General Discussion
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The devs make a product. They absolutely CAN NOT cater to EVERYONES wants. No matter what 'God status you put them in'.
They do the best they can.
IF you like it, you buy it. IF you don't like it, you DON'T buy it.
Ummm... IF you've already purchased and don't like it, UNSUBSCRIBE.
Errr, seriously don't know what else to say on this.
It's a product. If you don't like the product, get rid of the product from your life.
Its basic consumerism.
Sure complain, try to get changes - and some changes I believe are needed. But we're not the developers, the shareholders or the execs of Blizzard. If it's getting to you that badly, perhaps the product isn't for you.
10/17/2016 08:58 PMPosted by Pouncey
Frankly, the players know the game better than the developers.


that's not actually uncommon in creative fields for the fans to know a work better than the creators. and at the end of the day, video games are a creative field.
10/17/2016 07:38 PMPosted by Ornyx
10/17/2016 07:35 PMPosted by Lóst
...

Disagreement is fine, but not helping struggling specs like Ele, Frost or BrM under the stated reasoning feels a bit weak. 'We want to be viable' does not mean 'we want to be OP'.

If balance was closer I think there would have been much less pushback.

Definitely, and we agree. If a spec is truly struggling we aren't going to disagree just for the sake of disagreeing.

We want the game to be great, we don't have anything to win by making it horrible. :P


So why are you nerfing Afflicitons Damage on the PTR? Those are nerfs. There's so many problems with affliction........................................
10/17/2016 08:58 PMPosted by Pouncey
During WotLK's race for the Lich King world first, there was a hugely controversial ban for the guild that got the first kill, because their Saronite Bombs were rebuilding the platform. The relevance of this is that every DPS with Engineering included Saronite Bombs in their rotation if they were playing to their full ability. It was a normal part of the optimal rotation. The fact that the developers didn't know this...


No, that ban was entirely justified.

You see, the rogue that was in there was also in Ensidia's first kill of the Lich King. Which meant that they had seen how the fight was supposed to go. So when they claimed that they had no idea the saronite bombs werre rebuilding the platform, they also left out the crucial fact that they had knowledge that the platforms weren't supposed to reappear before they were supposed to in the first place because that very same rogue was, according to them, using the saronite bombs during his rotation in their first kill without the platforms rebuilding.

And they continued with it, instead of notifying the GM's that that was happening. That's why they got the ban: because they willingly exploited the platforms reappearing long before they were supposed to when they already knew the platforms weren't supposed to reappear before the time they are supposed to because they had already done the Lich King fight prior to the first heroic kill.
10/17/2016 09:01 PMPosted by Iramorti
10/17/2016 08:58 PMPosted by Pouncey
Frankly, the players know the game better than the developers.


that's not actually uncommon in creative fields for the fans to know a work better than the creators. and at the end of the day, video games are a creative field.


It's actually a thing in games development that when a high-end player starts developing the game they're good at, they very, very quickly drop in skill.

It's because while before, they were playing the game as its rules were written, instead they start playing the game as its rules were intended. When they log on or set their armies up, they aren't seeing what's there, they're seeing what they meant to be there.

There is thus a huge blind spot for developers regarding everything they didn't intend.

So, really, you have to rely on player input and treat it as though players are seeing things you aren't. Because that's what is actually happening.
10/17/2016 09:05 PMPosted by Upton
10/17/2016 08:58 PMPosted by Pouncey
During WotLK's race for the Lich King world first, there was a hugely controversial ban for the guild that got the first kill, because their Saronite Bombs were rebuilding the platform. The relevance of this is that every DPS with Engineering included Saronite Bombs in their rotation if they were playing to their full ability. It was a normal part of the optimal rotation. The fact that the developers didn't know this...


No, that ban was entirely justified.

You see, the rogue that was in there was also in Ensidia's first kill of the Lich King. Which meant that they had seen how the fight was supposed to go. So when they claimed that they had no idea the saronite bombs werre rebuilding the platform, they also left out the crucial fact that they had knowledge that the platforms weren't supposed to reappear before they were supposed to in the first place because that very same rogue was, according to them, using the saronite bombs during his rotation in their first kill without the platforms rebuilding.

And they continued with it, instead of notifying the GM's that that was happening. That's why they got the ban: because they willingly exploited the platforms reappearing long before they were supposed to when they already knew the platforms weren't supposed to reappear before the time they are supposed to because they had already done the Lich King fight prior to the first heroic kill.


They actually had filed a bug report about it during their progression. And no one knew it was the bombs that were rebuilding it.
What I've learned from previously being in the retail environment is your customers need to be happy to have any sort of income. If you're gonna blatantly ignore all of the work people but in to playing the ALPHA and BETA (the reasons beta and alphas exist is the get eyes from the outside and see what you can do to improve your game) then you honestly deserve another big loss of subscribers I get what you guys find fun is gonna be something you deny is wrong because that's just pride. As much as I'm enjoying my shaman at the moment I shelved my DK after reading up on what you did to them. I'm quite sad honestly because I've played since vanilla and mained a DK since wrath. I played through their peak times and through their wet noodle time.

Bottom line is I absolutely get what your problem is with change. But we are your customers man. You struggled to dig yourself out of the hole with the !@#$ing awful disaster that was your last 3 expansions. We are trying to help you out of a love for this game and you're taking our posts and advice and blowing your nose with it and playing trashketball in the office then you absolutely deserve another sub drop.

I get the restaurant analogy too but just because YOU love something does not mean the majority will. Pride is a helluva drug.
I really need to get my act together and just make my own MMO. I'm really too strongly opinionated to be playing anyone else's :(
10/17/2016 08:59 PMPosted by Neila
The devs make a product. They absolutely CAN NOT cater to EVERYONES wants. No matter what 'God status you put them in'.
They do the best they can.
IF you like it, you buy it. IF you don't like it, you DON'T buy it.
Ummm... IF you've already purchased and don't like it, UNSUBSCRIBE.
Errr, seriously don't know what else to say on this.
It's a product. If you don't like the product, get rid of the product from your life.
Its basic consumerism.
Sure complain, try to get changes - and some changes I believe are needed. But we're not the developers, the shareholders or the execs of Blizzard. If it's getting to you that badly, perhaps the product isn't for you.


This 100%. If you don't like it, don't play it.

P.S. My sub expires in a bit less than 48 hours so I'm walking the talk.
I just want the Blizzard devs to come along and show me how the two and a half phase 13 spell rotation of Demonology is supposed to work as per their design.

I'm not being a smartass either. The demo community finds it to be so complex as to be almost unperformable when standing still. When moving? *shrug* We barely understand it.
For you trolls out there, if you find a thread that blues are responding to and you want them to stop,pissing off the other posters, just ask "What's going on with Blood Death Knights? Are they getting any changes?". It'll basically guarantee no blue will ever respond in that thread again. You're welcome.
10/17/2016 09:09 PMPosted by Panku
10/17/2016 08:59 PMPosted by Neila
The devs make a product. They absolutely CAN NOT cater to EVERYONES wants. No matter what 'God status you put them in'.
They do the best they can.
IF you like it, you buy it. IF you don't like it, you DON'T buy it.
Ummm... IF you've already purchased and don't like it, UNSUBSCRIBE.
Errr, seriously don't know what else to say on this.
It's a product. If you don't like the product, get rid of the product from your life.
Its basic consumerism.
Sure complain, try to get changes - and some changes I believe are needed. But we're not the developers, the shareholders or the execs of Blizzard. If it's getting to you that badly, perhaps the product isn't for you.


This 100%. If you don't like it, don't play it.

P.S. My sub expires in a bit less than 48 hours so I'm walking the talk.


I was on 6-month recurring subscriptions that renewed fairly shortly before Legion. My subscriptions end in December and February, respectively.
To be fair, Blizzard's whole philosophy on "making the games we'd want to play" did bring us the bundle of joy known as Diablo.

The greatest game of all time, by the way.
10/17/2016 09:17 PMPosted by Vampiriç
To be fair, Blizzard's whole philosophy on "making the games we'd want to play" did bring us the bundle of joy known as Diablo.

The greatest game of all time, by the way.


Do you mean the original, or the pre-Reaper of Souls Diablo III?
10/17/2016 07:07 PMPosted by Ornyx
Game design is most definitely an art, and the artist is the one in control of their own hand.

One of Blizzard's oldest philosophies has been to build worlds and games that we ourselves love, and, only then, inviting players to join us on adventures within. This doesn't mean we don't care or listen, it just means that we do disagree at a philosophical level about some things that players may not like.

Everyone who has worked on Legion has put tons of love and sweat into building this expansion. We are most definitely working on making Legion the best expansion WoW has seen - and I think that will show over the coming months.


If that's so, could you hire someone for the Hunter BM team with more balls to stand and say that what has been done to the class and spec is rubbish ?
10/17/2016 07:26 PMPosted by Lóst
I think the big problem is the balance discussion in the QA came over a bit high handed or even a touch meanspirited.

While it is likely not exactly as it was intended, the whole 'we know yall need buffs but if you become the top spec it will upset the peole who play that spec so no love for you' impression taken from the QA was sort of crappy, especially for people playing Elemental or Frost - who also dedicated a lot of time and AP in the hopes that they would be buffed not to be better than Unholy or Enhance, but on par.

Sorry to hear that it came across that way.

Just to be clear, I was trying to explain why we sometimes may seem conservative or slow with balance changes. Frost mages were used as an example of a spec that we do feel is currently lagging behind in raid and dungeon gameplay, but not by nearly as much as data from public log sites might suggest. It seems less disruptive to buff a spec incrementally, allowing time for the results of each change to play out and repeating if needed, rather than risking overshooting the mark. (And yes, we definitely have failed in this goal at times - post-launch rogue spec balance comes to mind.)

At the heart of balance concerns is the fact that people just want to be able to feel like they have a place in the endgame as their preferred class/spec, and we entirely share that goal. Class balance is an ongoing process, with new variables coming into play all the time, as item level increases, new trinkets, legendaries, and set bonuses enter the mix, players get deeper into their respective artifact trees, theorycraft evolves, etc.

The Q&A didn't delve into specific details because the exact list of changes is and was still evolving. There will be a new 7.1 build on PTR very shortly, and patch notes to follow. That patch contains some improvements for several of the specs that currently are currently underperforming (including both flavors of Frost). Those changes should in general move things in the right direction, but we'll be continuing to watch and adjust further as needed.
Whoops, didn't realize the thread was capped. Fixed.
10/17/2016 09:40 PMPosted by Watcher
10/17/2016 07:26 PMPosted by Lóst
I think the big problem is the balance discussion in the QA came over a bit high handed or even a touch meanspirited.

While it is likely not exactly as it was intended, the whole 'we know yall need buffs but if you become the top spec it will upset the peole who play that spec so no love for you' impression taken from the QA was sort of crappy, especially for people playing Elemental or Frost - who also dedicated a lot of time and AP in the hopes that they would be buffed not to be better than Unholy or Enhance, but on par.

Sorry to hear that it came across that way.

Just to be clear, I was trying to explain why we sometimes may seem conservative or slow with balance changes. Frost mages were used as an example of a spec that we do feel is currently lagging behind in raid and dungeon gameplay, but not by nearly as much as data from public log sites might suggest. It seems less disruptive to buff a spec incrementally, allowing time for the results of each change to play out and repeating if needed, rather than risking overshooting the mark. (And yes, we definitely have failed in this goal at times - post-launch rogue spec balance comes to mind.)

At the heart of balance concerns is the fact that people just want to be able to feel like they have a place in the endgame as their preferred class/spec, and we entirely share that goal. Class balance is an ongoing process, with new variables coming into play all the time, as item level increases, new trinkets, legendaries, and set bonuses enter the mix, players get deeper into their respective artifact trees, theorycraft evolves, etc.

The Q&A didn't delve into specific details because the exact list of changes is and was still evolving. There will be a new 7.1 build on PTR very shortly, and patch notes to follow. That patch contains some improvements for several of the specs that currently are currently underperforming (including both flavors of Frost). Those changes should in general move things in the right direction, but we'll be continuing to watch and adjust further as needed.


Appreciate you taking the time out of your busy schedule (especially with a leadership transition in progress) to post, especially late at night.
10/17/2016 09:40 PMPosted by Watcher
There will be a new 7.1 build on PTR very shortly, and patch notes to follow. That patch contains some improvements for several of the specs that currently are currently underperforming (including both flavors of Frost). Those changes should in general move things in the right direction, but we'll be continuing to watch and adjust further as needed.


I swear to thrall's green balls there better be something for affliction in there or Imma throw a huge b!tchfit.

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