(Havoc) Throw Glaive Rotation Has to Go

Demon Hunter
Hey all!

Demon Hunter here. I play Vengeance mostly, but I've played both depending on the situation.

Since Beta I've heavily criticized ANY Single Target rotation that heavily features AoE and or Cleave abilities as part of the standard core.

Why?

It is difficult to balance.

Let me expand. If I'm using an AoE ability apart of my ST rotation, it must have enough value for me to use it. This means that the damage or utility it provides is high enough that I benefit from using it against a single target, despite it being obviously designed for multiple. The problem exists when you are fighting multiple targets, the ability bloats in effectiveness. If it's good against 1, it's better against more.

Throw Glaive is the worst example of this situation that I've seen.

Why?

It costs no resources, and is on a charge based system (talented), and causes a 100% damage done bleed to multiple targets (Talented).

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xKakPMWALXv916Zr#type=damage-done&source=6&fight=28

Above is a log for a Mythic Ursoc Havoc fight. As you will see, the player did 30.8% damage with Chaos Strike at 105 casts. He did 17.6% damage with Throw Glaives at 33 casts. Why does an AoE specific ability do 1/2 the damage of a core single target rotation ability at ~1/3rd the number of casts?

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/xKakPMWALXv916Zr#type=damage-done&source=6

This is a log for Emerald Dragons. In this he casted Glaive 34 times, which is 1 time more than his Ursoc fight, but ultimately he did 40 million damage in 34 casts, as he did on Ursoc with Chaos Strike at 105 casts. This goes back to "when it's good against 1, it's better against more" comment I made earlier. 1 more cast, but 2x the damage? There is a problem here.

These AoE rotations are a systemic problem with Demon Hunters. They do not have a clear ST rotation that does not include AoE abilities. The builder and Chaos Strike are the only pure ST non-talented abilities. Everything else hits multiple targets. Vengeance is in a very similar situation, where their builder is single target, and nothing else is. This creates a ton of damage bloat in AoE fights and makes Demon Hunters look exceptionally strong, and causes nerfs to the AoE abilities, disproportionally affecting their Single Target rotations.

I don't know how to fix this without tearing down the entire rotation and removing AoE from it. Rotational AoE that does significant damage is a problem. Blizzard needs to address this, and Throw Glaive is a key example of this problem.

I hope that you guys take the time to read this, and do not flame me for my opinion. It's very easy to dissect with the information we have regarding the ability.

Thanks for reading!
Nerf throw glaive to nerf our single target even further. No thanks.
First Blood (talent) mechanic applied to most of our abilities would solve a lot of the problem of the DH rotation being focused around AoE capable skills.
11/03/2016 09:27 AMPosted by Sarrastolus
First Blood (talent) mechanic applied to most of our abilities would solve a lot of the problem of the DH rotation being focused around AoE capable skills.


That sounds overpowered as all hell.
Most specs right now use aoe skills on their ST rotation, only 1 or 2 skills are tied to aoe only situations.
"Since Beta I've heavily criticized ANY Single Target rotation that heavily features AoE and or Cleave abilities as part of the standard core. "

lmao you realize we only have 2 single target attack?(one of the 2 can be talented to be passive)
I want to take this post seriously, but there are too many rhetorical questions and conclusions without any supporting evidence to back them up.
11/03/2016 10:09 AMPosted by Easternight
Most specs right now use aoe skills on their ST rotation, only 1 or 2 skills are tied to aoe only situations.


Arms doesn't WW, Cleave, or Bladestorm ST.

Fury doesn't WW ST unless you take a talent that lowers your ST damage for more AoE damage.

Outlaw has a toggle for AoE.

Assassin doesn't use FoK single target. Doesn't really have AoE abilities anyway.

Sub doesn't SS single target. Lacks in AoE.
11/03/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Amayaruiz

Arms doesn't WW, Cleave, or Bladestorm ST.


That's the differance bettewen 'most' and 'all'.

11/03/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Amayaruiz

Outlaw has a toggle for AoE.


That's 1 skill.

11/03/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Amayaruiz


Assassin doesn't use FoK single target. Doesn't really have AoE abilities anyway.



That's 1 skill.

11/03/2016 10:33 AMPosted by Amayaruiz

Sub doesn't SS single target. Lacks in AoE.


And that's... 1 skill.
if you havent noticed already, basically all DH abilities are aoe. How can you say nerf a certain ability because it does aoe? they nerfed glaive throw, fury of the illidari, felrush am i missing any others? All of those were critical for our single target and they got nerfed. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about if you say anything aoe needs to be nerfed because IT HAS.

thank you for reading
I feel like people aren't getting the point of the OP. I am almost positive he is not saying a nerf needs to happen to Throw Glaive. He is saying that the fact that there are SO many AOE abilities tied to our ST rotation, that it makes balancing our DPS very difficult.

If they want to buff our ST dps, they are limited in what they can do without also overbuffing our AOE dps. The OP is also stating that the fact that most of our abilities are AOE is what caused DHs to get nerfed in the first place.

TL;DR - Our ST dps and AOE dps are inextricably tied to one another to the point where it is challenging to change one without changing the other.
I don't see it as a problem if they allow us to be strong enough single target if we have somewhat dominant cleave. But right now our ST is still lacking.
11/03/2016 11:52 AMPosted by Magehna
I feel like people aren't getting the point of the OP. I am almost positive he is not saying a nerf needs to happen to Throw Glaive. He is saying that the fact that there are SO many AOE abilities tied to our ST rotation, that it makes balancing our DPS very difficult.

If they want to buff our ST dps, they are limited in what they can do without also overbuffing our AOE dps. The OP is also stating that the fact that most of our abilities are AOE is what caused DHs to get nerfed in the first place.

TL;DR - Our ST dps and AOE dps are inextricably tied to one another to the point where it is challenging to change one without changing the other.


It's really not. Buffing our ST is as simple as buffing our ST abilities, or adding an ST component a la Bloodlet to abilities that only works on the current target.

You can even change the momentum buff so that it procs off of more abilities, but has charges instead of a flat duration timer thereby necessitating a choice between ST and AOE damage that's left to the players judgement.

It's only hard if you're not creative.
Or they could just revert this major damage nerf by half, and let us have a bit stronger cleave too. Who really cares. We need that ST brought back up. In all honesty they should completely remove the nerf, and then nerf the legendary ring, cause as it stands if you don't have it you can't compete ST.
11/03/2016 09:43 AMPosted by Foxfighter
11/03/2016 09:27 AMPosted by Sarrastolus
First Blood (talent) mechanic applied to most of our abilities would solve a lot of the problem of the DH rotation being focused around AoE capable skills.


That sounds overpowered as all hell.


Only place I'd like to see it is eye beam (along with making EB un-kickable).
linking a log from a player using Legendary bracers which increase throw glaive damage on each bounces which in turns reflect into bloodlet to attempt to prove that the ability is op... niceme.me
11/03/2016 09:24 AMPosted by Balkoth
Nerf throw glaive to nerf our single target even further. No thanks.


Nerfing Throw Glaive is necessary, and nerfing Throw Glaive means that ST buffs will be necessary.

Furthermore, it's obvious you missed the entire context of the post by replying in such a manner. Ignorant at best.

The fact of the matter is, Havoc has very few single target abilities, and it suffers in both ST and balanced AoE because of how it is built.

By removing nerfing Throw Glaive, it lines the class as a whole to be more balanced during AoE encounters, and provides context for ST buffs.
11/03/2016 10:23 AMPosted by Zarlann
I want to take this post seriously, but there are too many rhetorical questions and conclusions without any supporting evidence to back them up.


I posted supplementary data from real world logs from one of the top DPS Havoc DH's in both an AoE and ST fight, and directly correlated the damage of TG in both instances, to that of the only pure ST damaging ability in the Havoc rotation.

Not sure what else you need.
Make Felblade a core ability.

Make Bloodlet apply to Felblade instead of Throw Glaive.

Replace old Felblade talent with something useless since everyone will spec into Bloodlet still.

And while we're living in a fantasy world, swap Master of the Glaive with Nemisis.
11/03/2016 02:26 PMPosted by Drayzenn
11/03/2016 10:23 AMPosted by Zarlann
I want to take this post seriously, but there are too many rhetorical questions and conclusions without any supporting evidence to back them up.


I posted supplementary data from real world logs from one of the top DPS Havoc DH's in both an AoE and ST fight, and directly correlated the damage of TG in both instances, to that of the only pure ST damaging ability in the Havoc rotation.

Not sure what else you need.


Please read the following reply again. Your data means nothing. Next you can find Arms Warrior logs of those with Ayala's Stone Heart and we can talk about how we need to nerf Execute.

11/03/2016 01:24 PMPosted by Kibfotm
linking a log from a player using Legendary bracers which increase throw glaive damage on each bounces which in turns reflect into bloodlet to attempt to prove that the ability is op... niceme.me

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