Integrity

Rogue
Folks, I've played rogue for over 10 years. I've seen them at their best and at their worst. And, let me tell you, this is no where near their worst. However, I've never seen the rogue community as distraught as this before and frankly, I'm floored.

I think many of you don't quite understand all the work that goes into balancing classes, let alone creating a new core specialization such as outlaw.

Many of you seem to almost take these changes personally and critique how devs or community reps don't EVER post on this forum- going as far as posting on the Mage forum to get a response. I don't blame them. While some folks actually have valuable insight supported by fact, many of you are not helping the situation. How do you expect a dev to converse with this?

Keep in mind, these are literally the first patch notes on a TEST realm. I say again, TEST realm.

Let's try and have some integrity through these "dark times," yeah? After all, the darkness is where we belong.

Pun - huzzah!
I think your overall positive nature and hope towards this is great.

But with saying that.... I think you are missing the point of what most of us are trying to say.

Yes there are many people on here that are crying for things that wont ever happen or just have L2P issues. But there are also people like yourself and pro players that are issuing the same complaints.

A huge issue with the Rogue class at the moment is necessarily the amount of dmg we take or do. Its the playstyle. They have taken our class and completely changed how it is played. On top of that, there are other classes that do everything we can do and more, and do it better every way.

I was looking back at the WOTLK talent trees last week. It honestly made me sad. We had so many choices back then to dictate how we could play the game. Yes there was always the Meta build. But at least your could compete with other builds and have fun.

I am not saying that no xp since then has been great. But if you look at the class we have grown to love back then to how it is now, that is the reason that most of us life long Rogues are so upset.
When you pay for something, you want it to work for you.

I've mained a rogue since Vanilla and end-game PvP wise; this is the weakest this class has ever been.
The frustration has been building for too long and there's so many reasons why. #1 being because so many dedicated players have shared their views, given great advice; and it goes completely ignored. Ontop of that, it's as if they're mocking us by continuing the stream of nerfs - basically laughing at us, while other classes that are already strong get buffs.
There's just an obscene lack of communication and understanding. It's not just rogues either, it's multiple classes and specs. There are forum posts with well written arguments, complaints, logs, etc. and they go unacknowledged/unanswered.

Yet (fire) mages make a few pages of complaints and whoooo boy, sure enough, there's a dev.

I don't think the balance team is lacking intelligence at all, on the contrary they're much smarter than me and miles better than anyone in the business at doing their job.

We just want communication, I think. Where devs actually provide valuable insight as to the "whys" and "how's." not just "I'll push it up up to the team 3x days in a row"
11/17/2016 01:34 PMPosted by Boohbox
Folks, I've played rogue for over 10 years. I've seen them at their best and at their worst. And, let me tell you, this is no where near their worst. However, I've never seen the rogue community as distraught as this before and frankly, I'm floored.

I think many of you don't quite understand all the work that goes into balancing classes, let alone creating a new core specialization such as outlaw.

Many of you seem to almost take these changes personally and critique how devs or community reps don't EVER post on this forum- going as far as posting on the Mage forum to get a response. I don't blame them. While some folks actually have valuable insight supported by fact, many of you are not helping the situation. How do you expect a dev to converse with this?

Keep in mind, these are literally the first patch notes on a TEST realm. I say again, TEST realm.

Let's try and have some integrity through these "dark times," yeah? After all, the darkness is where we belong.

Pun - huzzah!


10 years of wow doesnt make you a dev of wow so who cares
It would be the FOTM class busting in saying "guys, I know it's bad and all, but not THAT bad, keep your chin up". It is that bad. My rupture ticks for 32k, I saw it crit the other day for a whopping 64k; I was actually happy. Then a hunter rolled up next to me, roflmao stomped my target and rode off into the sunset, I was just trying to kill a wolf in AV...

Joking aside, the numbers are real and it's to the point where I don't even bother. I always pvp every expac, some I go harder on then others but I mostly focus on raiding; PvP has always been fun to me and a good fallback if I get bored, now? I'm better off slamming my head against the wall continuously, at least then I would do damage. (like monks)
Been playing this rogue since vanilla launch, and it is by far the worst it has ever been... hands down.
11/17/2016 10:15 PMPosted by Krazyrogue
Been playing this rogue since vanilla launch, and it is by far the worst it has ever been... hands down.
I have also been playing since vanilla and i can't remember a time when rogues have sucked more in pvp then they do now.
Man, maybe the damage being horrendous, survival being terrible and playstyle being revolting would be okay if you didn't take away so much utility.

It's almost like when you try to make things easier by balancing classes by "me do damage" it actually becomes more difficult because the control/escape class is missing most of its control/escape.
11/17/2016 01:34 PMPosted by Boohbox
Folks, I've played rogue for over 10 years. I've seen them at their best and at their worst. And, let me tell you, this is no where near their worst. However, I've never seen the rogue community as distraught as this before and frankly, I'm floored.

I think many of you don't quite understand all the work that goes into balancing classes, let alone creating a new core specialization such as outlaw.

Many of you seem to almost take these changes personally and critique how devs or community reps don't EVER post on this forum- going as far as posting on the Mage forum to get a response. I don't blame them. While some folks actually have valuable insight supported by fact, many of you are not helping the situation. How do you expect a dev to converse with this?

Keep in mind, these are literally the first patch notes on a TEST realm. I say again, TEST realm.

Let's try and have some integrity through these "dark times," yeah? After all, the darkness is where we belong.

Pun - huzzah!


You are just a faceless monk go !@#$ yourself not even a valid statement in the slightest
On the plus side, I've never been that into arenas, choosing to spend most of my time doing world PvP or whatever, but these days when I watch arena streams and see the best Rogues in the world die in a 2 second stun with feint up, I can say with confidence " I can do that".
I posted on the mage forums. I don't PvP really, but this is my only class and I do feel awful for those who do.

If it helps provide context, I was trying to point out through satire how Blizzard approaches community engagement. It's not...great, and while the CM in question is not a bad dude and means well, he made some hilariously tone-deaf comments (trade chat as a reason to nerf mages) and when Blizzard adopts that kind of tight-knit communication strategy they need to be more cognizant of the disproportionate way people are going to receive every word out of a blue.

tl;dr Regardless of class tweaks, Blizzard is not great at comms strategy in the modern era of gaming, especially when folks are passionate about classes, and quite frankly deserves to be called out in ways that reflect their silly approach to their playerbase.
11/17/2016 01:34 PMPosted by Boohbox
Folks, I've played rogue for over 10 years. I've seen them at their best and at their worst. And, let me tell you, this is no where near their worst. However, I've never seen the rogue community as distraught as this before and frankly, I'm floored.

I can only assume you have not played a rogue in this expansion. Rogue PvP is the worst it's ever been. The second worst time for rogues is not even close to the current state.

I have always enjoyed doing random battlegrounds. When Legion came out, I gave it the benefit of the doubt because there were a lot of changes. There were some hot fixes. I gave those the benefit of the doubt. Things are still new, people are adjusting. Then 7.1 went live. I stared at my computer, dumbfounded, as I read the patch notes. I spent some time doing battle grounds and was totally floored at how bad it was. When you read about rogues dying in 3-4 globals, it's not an exaggeration. That is literally what is happening.

In before L2P. It's not a learn to play issue when you are spending a large percentage of your time in the graveyard. Blizzard has taken away our damage and our survivability. By doing so, the class is no longer fun to play - in PvP.
Your point might have some validity if there wasn't quality feedback on this forum in heaps and heaps... and also that the most recent post on the Mage forum that got a blue post led with "YOU STUPID IDIOTS".
11/17/2016 01:34 PMPosted by Boohbox
Folks, I've played rogue for over 10 years. I've seen them at their best and at their worst. And, let me tell you, this is no where near their worst. However, I've never seen the rogue community as distraught as this before and frankly, I'm floored.

I think many of you don't quite understand all the work that goes into balancing classes, let alone creating a new core specialization such as outlaw.

Many of you seem to almost take these changes personally and critique how devs or community reps don't EVER post on this forum- going as far as posting on the Mage forum to get a response. I don't blame them. While some folks actually have valuable insight supported by fact, many of you are not helping the situation. How do you expect a dev to converse with this?

Keep in mind, these are literally the first patch notes on a TEST realm. I say again, TEST realm.

Let's try and have some integrity through these "dark times," yeah? After all, the darkness is where we belong.

Pun - huzzah!


You work for blizzard. !@#$ kid.
11/17/2016 01:42 PMPosted by Venocc
I think your overall positive nature and hope towards this is great.


And I think it is a waste of time and effort. It is clear at this point it is pretty clear that they either don't give a crap about the class or they honestly have no f'ing clue about it's direction. They make statements saying one thing and then turn around and to the completely opposite. I have been around since launch and this is the worst I have seen the class, I thought MOP was bad...
Ok just to be clear, pve rogue is fine. If I go hard and perfect every little thing I do in an encounter I can parse amazingly as exsanguinate sin with all crit/verse gear.

Pvp on the other hand is where things are getting out of control. To say we are a class that when focused should be in extreme danger (makes perfect sense and I agree 10000000%) but if I play Sin in pvp (which is like the damage rogue for pvp) I have little to no utility and the damage is just not there compared to other classes utility and damage. Example: Monks have great cc, hell, they can sap from across the map (while that target is in combat mind you) FoF stun and their mastery makes it a 1 shot on rogues in pvp.

Sub is all control, which is a little fun but it's survivability is that of the other two specs - once you get trained it's over. Sub has great cc but can't survive the damage and tickles instead of attacking. And that shadow explosion gold trait is extremely depressing.

I love the rogue, yes I have this druid but I main my rogue. I won't be benching the class because of these faults that would be more painful to me. It's like watching your child fail and there is nothing you can do.
Look man, I've been playing since day of launch in vanilla, and rogues are definitely in a bad spot right now.

I can totally respect that sometimes, when balancing not just one class, but all classes in the ecosystem, that they might miss the mark in terms of effective balance from time to time (there will always be a weakest class afterall). I don't mind that, I don't even mind if they miss the mark by a country mile for a couple patches in a row. It definitely is a challenge to keep all specs competitive, while keeping in mind the subtle points of power like utility and trying to keep "perfect play" in check while still having "average play" be viable. I don't envy them for tackling this challenge patch after patch after patch.

However, when they -do- miss the mark by a mile, several patches in a row, what starts to piss me off is when I see PTR notes for patches down the line that indicate that they literally have no clue that they even fked up to begin with. Along with that, there is zero communication with the community to even indicate whether or not they acknowledge our classes issues. Straight up, we are left in the dark here, with just implied nerfs to come as the only thing to go on, dashing any hope.

They haven't posted, because they haven't committed to any major changes that we would like to hear about, that's pretty evident. That's also pretty discouraging when it comes to being hopeful about the future as well. In this case, no news does not equal good news, and that's why everyone's annoyed.
11/17/2016 01:34 PMPosted by Boohbox
Folks, I've played rogue for over 10 years. I've seen them at their best and at their worst. And, let me tell you, this is no where near their worst. However, I've never seen the rogue community as distraught as this before and frankly, I'm floored.

I think many of you don't quite understand all the work that goes into balancing classes, let alone creating a new core specialization such as outlaw.

Many of you seem to almost take these changes personally and critique how devs or community reps don't EVER post on this forum- going as far as posting on the Mage forum to get a response. I don't blame them. While some folks actually have valuable insight supported by fact, many of you are not helping the situation. How do you expect a dev to converse with this?

Keep in mind, these are literally the first patch notes on a TEST realm. I say again, TEST realm.

Let's try and have some integrity through these "dark times," yeah? After all, the darkness is where we belong.

Pun - huzzah!
I agree with we are not our worst, in pve. Our pve damage is great and will only get better now that we can switch to outlaw for some fights. However, I take issue with the the fact about them posting in anyway different then we do. In fact the post that git a response was titled "You !@#$ing Idiots". You are right it must have been a logical well thought out post that talked about numbers. We have posts talking about thode things, we make them logical we tell them we want real utility back and we want the class to play like a rogue. They don't listen. so maybe we have to start posts like they did.

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