Too many quest chains behind mythic dungeons

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12/05/2016 07:51 AMPosted by Elae
I got TWO from doing mythic +. I only get 1 from doing normal dungeon. And 80 dungeon takes a long time, as I'm a bit busier in my real life at the moment with work related stuff.

You would still get them faster doing Mythic+ instances. They are guaranteed to drop the number equal to the Keystone level (2 drop in a +2, 3 in a +3, etc., etc., etc.) so doing...
- two 5 +2 runs
- 2 +3 runs and a +4
- 2 +5 runs

You'd be finished. Hell, you don't even have to beat the timer to get the quest items...you just have to complete the dungeon. You could do one +10 and be done in an hour or less.

If you're busier than you used to be, you should be happy there's a way to get 2 or 3 or 5 or 10 of the item at once rather than needing to run 10 dungeons, or more, to get them. When has a quest drop ever been 100% guaranteed before this? Like, never!

The quest line, even for people who do +15 dungeons on Tuesdays every week in 15 minutes will take no less than 8 weeks. And there's no rule stating that it must be completed in exactly 8 weeks (maximum quest items per week being 10) or you can't complete it (thank goodness or I'd never be able to finish it...I only have 56 of the things).

You folks act as though these things are impossible tasks if you can't do them in LFR/LFG. I'm sorry to inform you...they are NOT impossible. You don't need to meet any time requirements. You can do them at your leisure. You don't have to be finished in the 3rd month of the expansion or any other arbitrary minimum amount of time you place for yourself.
12/05/2016 12:01 PMPosted by Berith
And no one would've wanted WoD CMs on a queue.


Because speed runs are boring.


Early WoD CMs were not done as speed runs. They were done for completion for the loot box, timer be damned. I have to question you r experience with WoD and any statement of comparison you make. You obviously have no experience with that expansion, especially the early weeks if you are not aware of that particular meta.

Legion Mythics are on par tuning wise at the proper gear level with WoD CMs. They have extra mechanics not found in the Heroic, exactly like WoD CMs have.

To pretend otherwise is to have not run WoD Heroics week 1 or run Legion Mythics week 1. My achievements show I have experienced both at launch.

Also your camera comment IRT Grimrail is ridiculous. The instance was hard because the 2nd boss was a big mechanic fight, and e trash packs were tightly positioned, easy to aggro. It was drop on sight because at ilvl 610, it required some awareness.

Even that doesn't measure up to Legion Mythic mechanics.

Again, you seem unaware of early pre-Highmaul WoD dungeons and you don't seem to have experience in Legion Mythics either.

You are unfit to contribute.
Until the rewards equal the amount of effort, I'll sit the mythics out.

I am a raider... so, I gear up in raids. I am not an enchanter, so doing mythics to get purples to de into crystals ain't in the plan.

I also lost the thread of any storyline long ago.
12/05/2016 12:07 PMPosted by Berith

On a legendary item ? No I wouldn't. It's indicative of a nonchalance and apathy towards the game and thus most likely to result in low or bad performance. Gear doesn't move your toon or push buttons.


Could just be a casual player trying to finish a quest and not get into mythic+ or higher.
Still outgears the dungeon though even without an enchant.

I guess cause I am casual I have a different mindset.

But yeah..if you're a high end player I can see that you'd notice these things missing and they shouldn't be.
12/05/2016 08:23 AMPosted by Teranika
You may have gotten the quest 6 weeks ago.. someone just hitting 110 and getting to that point in the story..just got the quest today.. and still has the same "end date" to get the 80 drops by (assuming completion by Nighthold release).

There is no "end date".

Whether you picked up the quest 6 weeks ago, last week, 4 weeks ago, or today it will STILL take NO LESS THAN 8 WEEKS to complete it regardless of when Nighthold comes out.

Someone who just started doing something today shouldn't be at the same place next week as someone who started doing that same something a month ago.

Do you even read what you're typing? Or think about what you're saying? And where did you get this arbitrary "end date"...that is, in reality, non-existent...from? I've seen no "end date" stating that the quest can't be completed after that.

You place non-existent, completely arbitrary completion requirements on yourself then complain that Blizzard doesn't accommodate these things for you? What??
12/05/2016 12:24 PMPosted by Missbegotten
Until the rewards equal the amount of effort, I'll sit the mythics out.

I am a raider... so, I gear up in raids. I am not an enchanter, so doing mythics to get purples to de into crystals ain't in the plan.

I also lost the thread of any storyline long ago.


To me only high mountain and suramar had storylines that I could easily follow.
But i still can't figure out where Illidan comes into play with the various mountain tribes all needing to come together.
Very upset that professions and other quests are gated behind mythics .. Not happy at all!
12/05/2016 12:26 PMPosted by Raiyyn
12/05/2016 08:23 AMPosted by Teranika
You may have gotten the quest 6 weeks ago.. someone just hitting 110 and getting to that point in the story..just got the quest today.. and still has the same "end date" to get the 80 drops by (assuming completion by Nighthold release).

There is no "end date".

Whether you picked up the quest 6 weeks ago, last week, 4 weeks ago, or today it will STILL take NO LESS THAN 8 WEEKS to complete it regardless of when Nighthold comes out.

Someone who just started doing something today shouldn't be at the same place next week as someone who started doing that same something a month ago.

Do you even read what you're typing? Or think about what you're saying? And where did you get this arbitrary "end date"...that is, in reality, non-existent...from? I've seen no "end date" stating that the quest can't be completed after that.

You place non-existent, completely arbitrary completion requirements on yourself then complain that Blizzard doesn't accommodate these things for you? What??


Actually it's not coming from Blizzard but from other players.
12/05/2016 11:51 AMPosted by Berith
The percentage of people who have completed *A* Mythic dungeon is equal to the highest percentage you can find for any of the Mythic achievements, 65% according to World of Wargraphs.


http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/faq

What character sheets do you analyze ?
Every players from EU, US realms, with :
a 1800+ rating are analyzed (pvp)
at least 2 bosses killed in mythic mode (pve)


Thank you for proving the point I've been trying to make about how unreliable these statistic tracking sites are when it comes to overall player participation.

They're only tracking players who are doing the content in the first place and ignoring those who aren't.
More options ARE better, no one can honestly dispute that, do you really think having less options would be good for everyone?

Every time someone says this, I have to retort:

12/05/2016 11:21 AMPosted by Nyzer
what's wrong with having mythic raid gear automatically mailed to you at max level?


Way to to totally miss the point dude,lol.

What you propose is not at the same as what i was referring too.

12/05/2016 12:13 PMPosted by Nyzer
Options are good when they're actually balanced.


They are, each option is balanced(or is attempted to be balanced) for it's core demographic.

12/05/2016 12:13 PMPosted by Nyzer
Queues are the easiest way to form groups with the least effort required. They're also the most rewarding method of forming a group. That's not even remotely balanced.


I can get 100% Mythic level drops from running Normals now!! Sweet!!!

No, they are not the most rewarding, you want the best rewards you have to do the hardest content, so no, you are quite wrong.

12/05/2016 12:13 PMPosted by Nyzer
You can't say "more options are better" then put all the best rewards on the easiest option. Everything else becomes obsolete, and no longer an option.


Good thing that isn't what is happening.
12/04/2016 10:19 AMPosted by Giscõ
Youre a hybrid. Play an offspec before you complain about not getting into groups.

LOL. Says the mage.
??? People are complaining about the 80 Soul Fragments quest? That's not being gated behind mythics.

Queue up for all the heroic dungeons and you can get the weekly maximum in one day. Droprate in heroic might not be quite 100%, but in my experience it's close enough to that.

I usually run a couple Mythic+'s very late in the week, like Sunday or Monday. By that time I'm usually capped already from heroics. Because I'm doing my daily heroic and if I didn't get Darkheart Thicket on any given day, I queue up for that once a day to try to get my Balance artifact appearance.
12/05/2016 11:51 AMPosted by Berith
The percentage of people who have completed *A* Mythic dungeon is equal to the highest percentage you can find for any of the Mythic achievements, 65% according to World of Wargraphs.


http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/faq

What character sheets do you analyze ?
Every players from EU, US realms, with :
a 1800+ rating are analyzed (pvp)
at least 2 bosses killed in mythic mode (pve)


Thank you for proving the point I've been trying to make about how unreliable these statistic tracking sites are when it comes to overall player participation.

They're only tracking players who are doing the content in the first place and ignoring those who aren't.


For the PvP and PvE rankings. Read their whole FAQ, the achievement completion don't have such filtering on who is illegible. Heck a few weeks ago, level 110 wasn't even 100%. Which would make both Mythic boss kills and high PvP rankings quite impressive.

There are 3 sections on World of Wargraphs. Rankings are 2 sections that use the above metrics to filter account eligibility and the armoury crawler for achievement %.

Stop trying to misrepresent the validity of the data.

Heck Joynal, I've pointed this out to you in a thread earlier when you tried the same misinformation.

See the Global Stats section of the FAQ.
12/05/2016 12:01 PMPosted by Berith
And no one would've wanted WoD CMs on a queue.

Because speed runs are boring.

To YOU. Not to everyone.

For some, the challenge is in the timer. Figuring out what packs can they can sneak by, determining if it's more time efficient to CC or to risk a wipe, figuring out how to optimize positioning or CDs or whatever to get it done. And as the levels go up those things come more and more into play.

Just because you find them boring doesn't mean everyone does. To the third of the playerbase that are regularly doing +5s and higher, they are not boring at all.

I find them just as fun, if not more fun, than raiding. To each their own, you know.

12/05/2016 12:01 PMPosted by Berith
Legion Mythics are much harder.

No, they really aren't.

At the minimum item level requirement of 825, yes...yes, they really are. And for the average "stand in everything, it's just LFR/LFG" player they would be exceptionally difficult at that item level.

For people who out gear them, they are crazy easy.

It depends on the group. To simply say "no they aren't" is just silly.

12/05/2016 12:01 PMPosted by Berith
It was plenty harder than even day 2 Heroic Grimrail (one of the hardest earlier WoD dungeons).

Are we really considering fighting with the camera to be part of instance difficulty now? Because, frankly, if you're fighting more with the camera than you are with the actual dungeon content then that's a sign of bad instance design, not of instance difficulty.

I don't recall fighting with any camera. I do recall the space being limited. And yes, sometimes limited space or field of view does very much impact the difficulty of an encounter; it makes it harder to move out of things and to find a safe place to go without pulling additional mobs. And yes, those things are part of the difficulty of some fights in this game...they always have been.

Just because an encounter, or instance, gives limited space doesn't make them poorly designed nor does it negate the added difficulty said space limitations present. (Although, in the case of Grimrail Depot I'd have to agree that it wasn't the best work the instance design team has ever done.)
You place non-existent, completely arbitrary completion requirements on yourself then complain that Blizzard doesn't accommodate these things for you? What??

Actually it's not coming from Blizzard but from other players.

I'm pretty sure I said that...

Players give themselves, and each other, arbitrary and completely non-existent "completion time frames" (or "end dates") for things and then blame Blizzard for not giving every single player, regardless of when they started, the ability to meet these arbitrary, non-existent, player created time frames.
I do not have dedicated play time. I'm on a lot, but I am also afk frequently. (Usually not for more than a few minutes, but it's off and on.)

I don't have the time for raids at all, so those are totally out. Plus I'm not actually good enough for raids, with Fibromyalgia I have problems remembering the mechanics if they are at all complex. I go, I fight, period. If I have to also remember a bunch of other stuff forget it.

Same goes for mythic dungeons. I don't even do normal dungeons, I'm certainly not going to do mythic. Normal I have the ability to do, it's the long queue times that block me. I could most likely do some of the mythic, I'm a good player just not great. But, again if it's complex mechanics I'm just going to go stand over there -> while I go completely blank.

And then again, there are the log wait times to get into one. And then only (most likely, being realistic...) declined or kicked...

Basically no way is this possible for me regardless.

I don't mind missing out on a lot of content, especially if the content is something I'm not going to be into anyway. In the past one did mythic for mounts, pets, gear. No problem not getting those. I don't do the content, I don't get the rewards. I'm fine with this. Don't need Mythic gear if I don't do Mythic dungeons, etc.

However in Legion... I can't complete basic content. I can't even get the pillars without doing a dungeon. Um... this is frustrating. I can't get basic Pathfinder unless I do 80 mythic dungeons. I might maybe at some point (haven't been able to so far though,) get 1 mythic done. 80 is simply not possible for me. Neither is the 1 raid that is required. (Unless I just afk and hope I don't get kicked.)

I am at this point, backing off from Legion. I love the questing, I love the zones, I love the lore. Unfortunately since there is no way I can complete even basic content, I kind of feel like: Why bother? I quest up to Suramar, do some of those quests, then just dump that character. I don't even bother going back most of the time.

I'm currently starting over with a monk and priest at level 1 and leveling up, I'll get to 110, do some stuff in Suramar (up to the point where you have to sneak around all over the city, I'm not into corpse runs much and why bother? Can't complete the expac anyway.) Then dump that alt as well.

I have no reason to try for something that I might be able to eek out once or twice, if I have to do it 80 times?!!

I was planning to do the LFD for the Pillars at least, but why put myself though trying to get 1 afternoon free (which is very difficult to do) so I can spend 1 to 2 hours in queue hoping the dungeon will pop.

For me, and this is just me... The frustration level is too high to enjoy trying. It has taken the fun away. Every time I turn around there is something else I "have" to complete that is not possible for me. I threw in the towel.

Others may or many not agree with my problems, they are mine and I don't expect the dev's to create the game just for me. lol

However Legion seems to be a Dungeon and Raid game almost exclusively. Quests thrown in for some other content, but the main expac revolves around dungeons and raids.

I think it's great to have these in the game, many, many players love them, great! But is WoW to now be only for those people who enjoy high end content? What about the rest of us (and there are quite a few.)

-TL;DR Great to have high end content in game (Mythic Dungeons and Raids.) Not so great to force all players including those who can't (various reasons) do that content to do it to complete basic expac content. Forces players who dislike or are not capable of doing content at that level onto others (not working.) Can't complete basic core game content... Massively frustrating.
12/05/2016 11:51 AMPosted by Berith
12/05/2016 11:02 AMPosted by Raiyyn


Slightly more than half have completed one. On average, 52.59% of the player base has completed a Mythic Dungeon in Legion. And that's just regular, non-keystone Mythic Dungeons.


Rayyn, did you just add up all the achievement percentages and divide by 10 to make an average of players having completed, and this is a keyword here, *A* Mythic dungeon ?

Because I'm pretty sure that that is not a proper way to evaluate that particular metric ;)

The percentage of people who have completed *A* Mythic dungeon is equal to the highest percentage you can find for any of the Mythic achievements, 65% according to World of Wargraphs.

I'm aware. I was trying to not use the "~58%" number for "A" Mythic Dungeon and trying to keep the person I was responding to happy with his "1/2" number as closely as I could figure out how to do it. 8+% is a fairly significant increase over 1/2.

The site I used actually was 58.75% having complete EoA, not 65% as the site you used shows I didn't look at the site you checked). Somewhere in the middle is probably the most accurate percentage.

So yes, I know I didn't do it "the right way". I just figured I'd use the average percentage across all of the completed instances. Wrong, yes. But for the purposes I was getting at it works for me.
Chains? Outside of kara attunement and part of balance of power (if you got this far and can't do 3 mythic dungeons...ehhh I don't know what to say) Like actual chains not those one off no lore things you get from follower quests.

What?
I have 60 of those things haha cannot wait till 80.... oh what is next...
12/05/2016 12:52 PMPosted by Thelysea
I do not have dedicated play time. I'm on a lot, but I am also afk frequently. (Usually not for more than a few minutes, but it's off and on.)

I don't have the time for raids at all, so those are totally out. Plus I'm not actually good enough for raids, with Fibromyalgia I have problems remembering the mechanics if they are at all complex. I go, I fight, period. If I have to also remember a bunch of other stuff forget it.

Same goes for mythic dungeons. I don't even do normal dungeons, I'm certainly not going to do mythic. Normal I have the ability to do, it's the long queue times that block me. I could most likely do some of the mythic, I'm a good player just not great. But, again if it's complex mechanics I'm just going to go stand over there -> while I go completely blank.

And then again, there are the log wait times to get into one. And then only (most likely, being realistic...) declined or kicked...

Basically no way is this possible for me regardless.

I don't mind missing out on a lot of content, especially if the content is something I'm not going to be into anyway. In the past one did mythic for mounts, pets, gear. No problem not getting those. I don't do the content, I don't get the rewards. I'm fine with this. Don't need Mythic gear if I don't do Mythic dungeons, etc.

However in Legion... I can't complete basic content. I can't even get the pillars without doing a dungeon. Um... this is frustrating. I can't get basic Pathfinder unless I do 80 mythic dungeons. I might maybe at some point (haven't been able to so far though,) get 1 mythic done. 80 is simply not possible for me. Neither is the 1 raid that is required. (Unless I just afk and hope I don't get kicked.)

I am at this point, backing off from Legion. I love the questing, I love the zones, I love the lore. Unfortunately since there is no way I can complete even basic content, I kind of feel like: Why bother? I quest up to Suramar, do some of those quests, then just dump that character. I don't even bother going back most of the time.

I'm currently starting over with a monk and priest at level 1 and leveling up, I'll get to 110, do some stuff in Suramar (up to the point where you have to sneak around all over the city, I'm not into corpse runs much and why bother? Can't complete the expac anyway.) Then dump that alt as well.

I have no reason to try for something that I might be able to eek out once or twice, if I have to do it 80 times?!!

I was planning to do the LFD for the Pillars at least, but why put myself though trying to get 1 afternoon free (which is very difficult to do) so I can spend 1 to 2 hours in queue hoping the dungeon will pop.

For me, and this is just me... The frustration level is too high to enjoy trying. It has taken the fun away. Every time I turn around there is something else I "have" to complete that is not possible for me. I threw in the towel.

Others may or many not agree with my problems, they are mine and I don't expect the dev's to create the game just for me. lol

However Legion seems to be a Dungeon and Raid game almost exclusively. Quests thrown in for some other content, but the main expac revolves around dungeons and raids.

I think it's great to have these in the game, many, many players love them, great! But is WoW to now be only for those people who enjoy high end content? What about the rest of us (and there are quite a few.)

-TL;DR Great to have high end content in game (Mythic Dungeons and Raids.) Not so great to force all players including those who can't (various reasons) do that content to do it to complete basic expac content. Forces players who dislike or are not capable of doing content at that level onto others (not working.) Can't complete basic core game content... Massively frustrating.


To your first point about "liking" it. I don't know where anyone got the notion that you are supposed to absolutely love every second of WoW. Every hobby requires some actual effort to perform, and this game is no different.

To your second point, while I can empathize with you and others in a similar situations, (I have my own health issues that prevent me from doing many things) there are few things that should alter themselves to accommodate those who can't do them. Even you admitted that you don't even want to do regular dungeons...

This game has ALWAYS revolved around group content. At various point it has been easier or harder to do certain things outside of that, but the overall paradigm hasn't really changed much.

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