Please make the game more Alt Friendly.

General Discussion
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For me it's kind of a relief. I know my opinion is unpopular, but just focusing on my main and not leveling my alts is more fun. I miss having all the tradeskills covered. I wish we could learn more than 2 per character! But it's nice not to have to level classes i don't really like just for tradeskills. This expac was the push I needed to ditch them and focus on my mage.
"Alt Friendly" is the new forum meme/buzzword.

Legion handles alts just fine
11/22/2016 05:05 AMPosted by Crepe
Planeshaper, that's not an alt. That's "I want to play one character and have instant access to everything on any character I choose."

That's not "instant access to everything on any character I choose" at all. I asked for nothing associated with reps or professions or attunements or questlines.

Changing the AP/AK system would simply bring this expansion in line with all previous times in the game.

ALL existing precedent indicates an easier time, not just for alts, but for new players and players who take breaks.

Why did Legion suddenly change the definition and requirements of an alt?
11/22/2016 04:53 AMPosted by Planeshaper
Data! I bring you actual data and critical analysis!

11/22/2016 03:05 AMPosted by Vi
i have to ask, to you what is a reasonable amount of time to catch up an alt?

I'm not the OP, but I'll give this question a shot.

In the past, alts needed the following three things to become "swappable" as a main -- to actually serve the purpose of an "alternate" character:
1) Gear
2) Reps
3) Professions

Gear came from whatever content you were doing on your main, and it was very simple to funnel gear from one difficulty lower than what your main was doing. Alts could be roughly 15 ilevels behind your main in 2-4 raid lockouts, and it would only take one night a week.

Reps and Professions were the only real grinds, and often they didn't bring anything especially useful (especially once the professions lost their profession-only benefits).

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In Legion, however, you need the same as the above, plus:

4) Artifact Power
5) Artifact Knowledge

Artifact Power (in a vacuum) is merely another grind, along with professions and reps. However, this grind is mandatory to be a viable character, because a significant amount of character power comes from having traits. The addition of this alone is already more alt unfriendly than past expansions.

But this is not a grind that can just be hammered out like the others, no. This grind is exponential, and it is alleviated only by Artifact Knowledge.

Which brings me to the absolute worst and most alt-unfriendly system that has ever existed in WoW.

--------------------------------

I actually did an experiment today, because I just leveled an alt to 110.

My main, this character, is working on his 31st trait -- my new alt is working on her 14th trait. To give some perspective here, the 14th trait is the first trait past the "starter" traits, it's the first trait with a truly exponential scale -- it costs as much to get the 14th trait as to get the previous 13 combined, plus a little extra.

I completed the exact same World Quest that rewarded AP on both characters today. My fresh 110 is on AK 0, my main is on AK 16. For my fresh 110, the AP reward was 4% of their current Artifact Level. For my main, the AP reward was 2% of their current Artifact Level.

That's roughly similar, we're not talking an order of magnitude difference here.

That means that it takes roughly the same amount of time to level the next trait on my fresh alt as it does on my main.

So, what do I do? Park my alt and just wait for AK?

First, and I can't stress this enough -- that's already objectively terrible design. I leveled my alt because I wanted to be able to do things with it, not !@#$ing bench it while it earns the max level equivalent of Rest XP.

But let's actually look deeper under the hood.

In the next 45 days (that's a month and a half), my main will have reached AK 25 (at 5 days per AK), while my alt will have only reached AK 15 (at 3 days per AK). That is actually still an order of magnitude difference in terms of AP rewards.

This is an interesting ratio, because the final trait in an Artifact Weapon costs roughly an order of magnitude more AP than the 31st trait. So, after the next 45 days, if my main is working on the final Artifact Trait, and my alt is working on the 31st trait, the exact same World Quest with the exact same AP reward will be worth the same percent of the AP bar for both my alt and main...STILL.

45 days will have changed NOTHING.

This alt who is currently 17 traits behind, after the next month and a half, will barely be where my main is today. Meanwhile, in a month and a half, my main will actually exceed this new alt by 24 traits instead of 17. My alt will actually be further behind in a month and a half than it is right now.

Yet, after a month and a half, I could easily get the same ilevel on this alt that my main has today.

This fresh alt will permanently be behind. Because this system isn't static, no. This system will continuously get new traits and higher AK added to it.

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This is the least alt-friendly time in World of Warcraft. THIS IS ACTUALLY WORSE THAN HAVING ALTS IN VANILLA.

This current system is, and I hesitate to use this word, literally terrible.

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So, to answer the question posed.

  • Alts should immediately have the highest AK on the account. This should take 0 days. Zero.
  • New players, and players that fell behind, should immediately be able to purchase instant AK research up to 5 AK levels less the theoretical maximum AK, and those next 5 levels should still be faster to research.
  • Each of your weapons on a single character should have the same Artifact Power.
  • Artifact Power gains should "spill over" to alts that are more than 50% behind the character who is gaining the AP.
  • That's what should happen.

    Then, yes, I would be satisfied.


    woo an actual answer to create a discussion. hats off.

    I agree with all of your points mentioned. blizz should of used a system like in MOP where when you hit a point on your main, your alts are accelerated ( in MOP it was on reps when you hit revered ). this should of say been, third golden dragon on your main should of given your alts X amount of faster AP gain, to catch them up to say within 75% of your mains AP acquired. artifact knowledge is much faster acquired the later you start a toon in the xpack. my warlock is mostly fresh to 110 and its up to AK10. I'm working on my shaman now to see how fast it is when I get it up to 110, as I was surprised with how fast the AK was coming in on my lock. I was running out of class hall resources very quickly because of the speed AK was coming in.

    the speed of the catch up seems to be the main issue with some people. to me, alts are alts, they are different characters to do professions with, and to maybe choose different paths or playstyles to try out things on the other side of the fence. I'm not really concerned with if they are the same power as my main, because I know my main gets all of the TLC. so its neither here nor there if I have multiple characters at the same relative power. I'm not expecting to be running mythic10+ runs on my alts, because they are just that, alts. if I wanted to take them more seriously I would, but that's what my main is for. different strokes for different folks.

    ive played my alts very casually up to a point where they can solo even the hardest of the world quests comfortably. so its easy to be content with them.

    thanks for actually trying to answer the basic question in my original post.
    11/22/2016 05:06 AMPosted by Halanna
    For me it's kind of a relief. I know my opinion is unpopular, but just focusing on my main and not leveling my alts is more fun. I miss having all the tradeskills covered. I wish we could learn more than 2 per character! But it's nice not to have to level classes i don't really like just for tradeskills. This expac was the push I needed to ditch them and focus on my mage.


    That's a great idea until I'm asked to reroll and the first two characters I leveled I didn't like so much.

    I'm on my 4th 110 atm and now that I'm staying put I'm quite frankly suck of the nightfallen grind. Making me get exalted before the patch stuff and then not helping the rep grind is terrible design.

    Next patch builds on it even more! Burnt out on wqs already and I'm seriously sick of farming mana for those crack elves.

    Luckily I still need to farm roses or I'd not be farming there at all.
    11/22/2016 05:11 AMPosted by Planeshaper
    11/22/2016 05:05 AMPosted by Crepe
    Planeshaper, that's not an alt. That's "I want to play one character and have instant access to everything on any character I choose."

    That's not "instant access to everything on any character I choose" at all. I asked for nothing associated with reps or professions or attunements or questlines.

    Changing the AP/AK system would simply bring this expansion in line with all previous times in the game.

    ALL existing precedent indicates an easier time, not just for alts, but for new players and players who take breaks.

    Why did Legion suddenly change the definition and requirements of an alt?


    So you are saying that a player could have started playing in vanilla and be in MC within 1 week of starting? I would love to see that.
    11/22/2016 05:04 AMPosted by Xerik
    So basically you want 10 mains instead of 1 main and 9 alts.

    I understand that this is the GDF, and long posts don't actually get read.

    But no. Go back and read it again.

    Did you miss the part where that character that hit 110 today will actually be further behind my main in a month and a half than they are now?
    11/22/2016 05:16 AMPosted by Planeshaper
    11/22/2016 05:04 AMPosted by Xerik
    So basically you want 10 mains instead of 1 main and 9 alts.

    I understand that this is the GDF, and long posts don't actually get read.

    But no. Go back and read it again.

    Did you miss the part where that character that hit 110 today will actually be further behind my main in a month and a half than they are now?


    Yes I did, and as your post says it will be behind. The rest of your post pretty much says you don't want it to be, hence you want 10 mains instead of 1 main and 9 alts.
    I know this is GDF and some people lack reading comprehension but do you understand what "want" means?
    Try again.
    People say it's not alt friendly because they don't want to invest time to make alts. They don't want to "advance" on other toons because of what they did on their main character.

    In other words, the whole "not-alt-friendly" debate is a big whole subjective debate.
    11/22/2016 05:16 AMPosted by Xerik
    So you are saying that a player could have started playing in vanilla and be in MC within 1 week of starting?

    I brought a character to max level late in vanilla. I was in MC the day after I hit level 60, and got the Gloves of Prophecy, which I promptly had enchanted with +15 Agility.

    It was indeed a more time consuming process to get an alt to level cap in vanilla, especially if you actually took your time. But it could easily be done in a month, and the process of having that character serve as an alternate character was the exact same as it always was pre-Legion. Funnel gear with your guildies from the content you had on farm, just like you would help funnel gear for their other characters.

    I'm warning you that the AP/AK system, if unchanged, will rear its ugly head in terms of being able to bring in new players, players that take breaks, and alts.

    In a manner far worse than vanilla.
    11/22/2016 05:21 AMPosted by Xerik
    The rest of your post pretty much says you don't want it to be, hence you want 10 mains instead of 1 main and 9 alts.

    This is either a complete misreading, or a purposeful attempt at a fallacy.
    Something I will never understand about the "most alt-unfriendly evar" cabal is the fact that in previous expansions, even in early WoD, character power ONLY scaled with gear, which was locked behind a weekly loot lockout.

    Granted, MUCH further into expansions (6+ months for all but the super hard cores running multiple alt raids per week on the top content) this meant that the ramp up time for alts was measured in weeks and months, wholly dependent on RNG.

    It's like you people have never played endgame outside of the tiny window of fail that was HFC.

    This system, as it exists with AP and AK is MORE alt-friendly than the VAST majority of patches. If you folks had actually seriously played in the early game (i.e. before Cata) you'd know that.

    Final note: the idea of maintaining even 3 characters at the same level of power as each other is ridiculous and the game should never have gotten so shallow as to support that kind of play.
    http://i209.photobucket.com/albums/bb125/saleen538/WoWScrnShot_111416_194633_zpsc9xlarpd.jpg

    10 110's on this realm. and got all class hall stuff done.. now i agree we need something to boost up all the AP, its grueling doing WQ's on all these..

    my main is focus first. then i do a few a day,
    looks like I'm that 1 person that wishes there was no such thing as alts.

    I hated the first time leveling to 110 (different account), hated it this time too-dont even have wqs open here (or nightfallen discovered even lol).

    before some brain child thinks this is an alt, my main account was suspended for allegedly running unapproved 3rd party software, so doing this was not by choice.
    11/22/2016 05:16 AMPosted by Xerik
    So you are saying that a player could have started playing in vanilla and be in MC within 1 week of starting?

    I brought a character to max level late in vanilla. I was in MC the day after I hit level 60, and got the Gloves of Prophecy, which I promptly had enchanted with +15 Agility.

    It was indeed a more time consuming process to get an alt to level cap in vanilla, especially if you actually took your time. But it could easily be done in a month, and the process of having that character serve as an alternate character was the exact same. Funnel gear with your guildies from the content you had on farm, just like you would help funnel gear for their other characters.

    I'm warning you that the AP/AK system, if unchanged, will rear its ugly head in terms of being able to bring in new players, players that take breaks, and alts.

    In a manner far worse than vanilla.


    IF you was in MC the day after hitting 60, you were carried by a guild, don't even try to deny that. Same thing can easily be done now if all you want is carried.
    11/22/2016 05:21 AMPosted by Sneakyrum
    People say it's not alt friendly because they don't want to invest time to make alts. They don't want to "advance" on other toons because of what they did on their main character.

    In other words, the whole "not-alt-friendly" debate is a big whole subjective debate.


    I *am* investing time.

    My main is grossly behind everyone else to the point of feeling hopeless because of the same reasons that make this game so alt unfriendly.
    11/22/2016 05:23 AMPosted by Planeshaper
    11/22/2016 05:21 AMPosted by Xerik
    The rest of your post pretty much says you don't want it to be, hence you want 10 mains instead of 1 main and 9 alts.

    This is either a complete misreading, or a purposeful attempt at a fallacy.


    "Alts should immediately have the highest AK on the account", your words not mine.
    Self explanatory as to what you want just from that statement.
    11/22/2016 05:05 AMPosted by Crepe
    What you propose would take away nearly all of the replayability I have in my alts. Every single one would bypass nearly all the content. OK, I can run EN. And... that's it.

    I just.

    I just really have to come back to this.

    What I proposed was primarily to make AK the same across all of your characters.

    There is absolutely NO content associated with AK generation. It is 100% a content-free time gate.

    How did you possibly come to this conclusion, that making AK account-wide would take away content?
    11/22/2016 05:29 AMPosted by Xerik
    11/22/2016 05:23 AMPosted by Planeshaper
    ...
    This is either a complete misreading, or a purposeful attempt at a fallacy.


    "Alts should immediately have the highest AK on the account", your words not mine.
    Self explanatory as to what you want just from that statement.

    Because AK is the only thing to get on alts. Not reps, professions, gear, or anything else.

    That very clearly is not wanting 10 mains. That's wanting what would be 1 main and 9 alts in any other time in the game.

    AK is content-free -- it has no content or gameplay associated with it.
    For me (and I think a fair few other people) it's not about having 4 or 5 mains instead of a main and 5 alts it was about finding a class you like to play.

    This is my fourth 110 and I think the one I am going to stick with this expansion.
    I am pretty far behind the first character I leveled and it is discouraging that I can not just get caught up by working it also takes a LOT of waiting.

    The reason so many people are having a hard time with it is because they made so many drastic changes to our classes and specs. I jumped on and leveled my usual main to 110 and figured out I hate her now.

    To people who might say I should have picked better to start, I say I'm used to having to adapt to class changes at the start of every expac and thought I would get used to the new changes like I always do but the changes are too drastic this time and finding a main can be hard.

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