Please make the game more Alt Friendly.

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11/22/2016 06:07 AMPosted by Planeshaper
I'm warning you that the math is on my side here, even with the "instant 10 AK for 5k resources" that's coming.

Yeah, no its not. You've based your entire premise (and all of the resulting math of your half-witted experiment) on the notion that an alt is a "pinch hitter" that can step in for your main in any given situation. That's not what alts are less than three months into an expansion and they never have been.


QFT. (My emphasis)

The only times in the game'so history where an alt could feasibly perform like a main are at the very tail end of content droughts, when people are so over progression that they really pay little or no attention to the time required to pull an alt up to par.

Even in the silly anecdotes presented people are admitting, in spite of themselves, that it took a number of weeks to bring a new character current.

The stupid thing about all this is that people are confusing viable with competitive. Alts shouldn't be competitive. If someone focuses on one spec and one character, they SHOULD have an edge over those who didn't...just like it has been for virtually the whole history of the game.
11/22/2016 06:29 AMPosted by Planeshaper
11/22/2016 06:16 AMPosted by Derkhammer
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Yeah, no its not. You've based your entire premise (and all of the resulting math of your half-witted experiment) on the notion that an alt is a "pinch hitter" that can step in for your main in any given situation. That's not what alts are less than three months into an expansion and they never have been.

I disagree. They have always been.

Once you've gotten an alt to max level, you've only ever needed a few weeks of investment in that toon to bring it up to that level, not yet 3-4 more months, only to be even further behind. Especially if those few weeks coincided with farming the current raid tier before the next released.

The point isn't that the alt that hit 110 today shouldn't step foot into H EN tomorrow.

But that because of an artificial time gate that never existed before, it's going to be even further behind in a month and a half, and still wouldn't be at the same level as this toon, just in AP/AK, after those 45 days.


You would be behind regardless. The only difference is that in the olden days you maybe catch up sooner, maybe later depending on luck and now you will catch up on a schedule.
11/22/2016 06:23 AMPosted by Vi
he had the holy pally up to 110 in the first fortnight of the xpack

That's exactly how he wasn't screwed by the time gate.

11/22/2016 06:23 AMPosted by Vi
so he got up to mythic raid ready in a week. obviously this isn't the norm

Exactly, this is how it always was.

When you aren't hindered by the time gate, that's all it takes. That's all it has ever taken, to get up to par. It is the norm.

-------------------------------

There should be zero difference between a character that was leveled up to 110 on day one and just sat on, and a character that levels up to 110 today.
11/22/2016 01:44 AMPosted by Motors
The game is very Alt unfriendly at the moment, and it makes me feel like i have a lot of toons i will never get to play again.

I just think with some small tweaks or changes i could play any of my 5 paladins i want at any time and have them be relatively close and not so far off in capability. In particular what i would like to see:

1. Trickling in Hall resources and/or quests for followers to do for those resources like in WoD.
2. The speed of the catch up AK needs to be acknowledged and improved (i read somewhere they are making changes in an upcoming patch that alts will start out at level 10 AK so props for that if it happens).
3. Open the order hall armor for the class to purchase if you have already leveled 1 of that class, it is unrealistic to get that "starter" armor by farming it every time you re-level the class.
4. Purchasable (made by one of the professions like inscription or archaeology or whatever) scripts for AP or make the drops like the Brief History of Aeons not be soulbound. Or something like making one from my main be account wide so if i get one that has 12k AP i can send it to my alts for that fast catch up mechanic.

Anything else other folks with a lot of alts can think of that might help.

In short make it easier for "mains" to help or account wide items to help get alts up to speed more quickly and be useful so i don't feel like i am locked into playing my main forever because my other toons are so far behind.

Thanks for listening if you made it this far.


I have been reading about people saying how alt unfriendly this expansion is for months and then I started playing. Other than that stupid artifact system it isn't any more unfriendly than other expansions and since you get value for doing the artifact on different classes I don't think it is a really bad thing.

I have 3 alts in the process of lvling up and all they do is the class hall campaign and professions and missions and they are leveling up just fine (already 103-105 in a week or so). It really isn't as much of a hardship as I figured it was based on all the complaints.
11/22/2016 06:35 AMPosted by Roxette
11/22/2016 01:44 AMPosted by Motors
The game is very Alt unfriendly at the moment, and it makes me feel like i have a lot of toons i will never get to play again.

I just think with some small tweaks or changes i could play any of my 5 paladins i want at any time and have them be relatively close and not so far off in capability. In particular what i would like to see:

1. Trickling in Hall resources and/or quests for followers to do for those resources like in WoD.
2. The speed of the catch up AK needs to be acknowledged and improved (i read somewhere they are making changes in an upcoming patch that alts will start out at level 10 AK so props for that if it happens).
3. Open the order hall armor for the class to purchase if you have already leveled 1 of that class, it is unrealistic to get that "starter" armor by farming it every time you re-level the class.
4. Purchasable (made by one of the professions like inscription or archaeology or whatever) scripts for AP or make the drops like the Brief History of Aeons not be soulbound. Or something like making one from my main be account wide so if i get one that has 12k AP i can send it to my alts for that fast catch up mechanic.

Anything else other folks with a lot of alts can think of that might help.

In short make it easier for "mains" to help or account wide items to help get alts up to speed more quickly and be useful so i don't feel like i am locked into playing my main forever because my other toons are so far behind.

Thanks for listening if you made it this far.


I have been reading about people saying how alt unfriendly this expansion is for months and then I started playing. Other than that stupid artifact system it isn't any more unfriendly than other expansions and since you get value for doing the artifact on different classes I don't think it is a really bad thing.

I have 3 alts in the process of lvling up and all they do is the class hall campaign and professions and missions and they are leveling up just fine (already 103-105 in a week or so). It really isn't as much of a hardship as I figured it was based on all the complaints.


Didn't stop you from agreeing with most of them...
11/22/2016 06:37 AMPosted by Spy
<span class="truncated">...</span>

I have been reading about people saying how alt unfriendly this expansion is for months and then I started playing. Other than that stupid artifact system it isn't any more unfriendly than other expansions and since you get value for doing the artifact on different classes I don't think it is a really bad thing.

I have 3 alts in the process of lvling up and all they do is the class hall campaign and professions and missions and they are leveling up just fine (already 103-105 in a week or so). It really isn't as much of a hardship as I figured it was based on all the complaints.


Didn't stop you from agreeing with most of them...


I still agree with most of them and if I wasn't cheating the system I would be agreeing with OP as well. In fact the dungeon requirement is even worse than I thought based on what people said. Dungeons are just about as optional this expansion as garrisons were last expansion.
These threads always seem to devolve into "I can't have Alts as progressed as my main!" as the complaint.

Well duh. An alt is about replaying the content. Not a "Main swap" service. There's already good catch-up in place for alts, 7.1 brought some more (removing rep requirements from Suramar dungeons), 7.1.5 is bringing more, and 7.2 and beyond will also increase the catch-up in place.

This is the same discussion we have every expansion, for different reasons. People say "Artifacts make it different this time!" are the new "Garrisons make it different this time!" people from 6.0, "VP gear locked behind Daily rep grinds!" people from 5.0, etc.. etc..
...

Didn't stop you from agreeing with most of them...


I still agree with most of them and if I wasn't cheating the system I would be agreeing with OP as well. In fact the dungeon requirement is even worse than I thought based on what people said. Dungeons are just about as optional this expansion as garrisons were last expansion.


Blizz appreciates your purchase...
11/22/2016 06:43 AMPosted by Spy
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I still agree with most of them and if I wasn't cheating the system I would be agreeing with OP as well. In fact the dungeon requirement is even worse than I thought based on what people said. Dungeons are just about as optional this expansion as garrisons were last expansion.


Blizz appreciates your purchase...


Don't you have anything better to do with your life than stalk me from thread to thread to thread ?
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Blizz appreciates your purchase...


Don't you have anything better to do with your life than stalk me from thread to thread to thread ?


If you had bothered to actually read the thread, you would have noticed that I was already here when you managed to stumble in.
11/22/2016 06:23 AMPosted by Vi
after your 31st trait, the exponential increase is depressing to look at

I wanted to bring this back up, because I talked about this in my long post as well.

It might seem depressing to look at, but for me at AK 16, this much is true.

A WQ that rewards AP does reward roughly the same percentage of my 31st trait at AK 16 as the very same WQ will for my 54th and final trait at AK 25.

If you stay within the lines, that is, stay roughly in the time-gated "expected trait progression" window, and stay at roughly the latest AK level, the exponential increases counteract. They become illusory, locked only behind the next time-gate.

If you get too far ahead of the lines, they seem insurmountable. If you lag too far behind the lines, it only feels like you're catching up -- but everyone is actually getting even further ahead than you.
11/22/2016 06:48 AMPosted by Spy
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Don't you have anything better to do with your life than stalk me from thread to thread to thread ?


If you had bothered to actually read the thread, you would have noticed that I was already here when you managed to stumble in.


Yes but you can't never resist trying to derail the thread by making personal attacks on me. Every single time. I don't know if I should be creeped out or flattered by your attraction to me.
11/22/2016 06:49 AMPosted by Planeshaper
11/22/2016 06:23 AMPosted by Vi
after your 31st trait, the exponential increase is depressing to look at

I wanted to bring this back up, because I talked about this in my long post as well.

It might seem depressing to look at, but for me at AK 16, this much is true.

A WQ that rewards AP does reward roughly the same percentage of my 31st trait at AK 16 as the very same WQ will for my 54th and final trait at AK 25.

If you stay within the lines, that is, stay roughly in the time-gated "expected trait progression" window, and stay at roughly the latest AK level, the exponential increases counteract. They become illusory, locked only behind the next time-gate.

If you get too far ahead of the lines, they seem insurmountable. If you lag too far behind the lines, it only feels like you're catching up -- but everyone is actually getting even further ahead than you.


Except for the part where they don't. The gain in AK isn't symmetrical to the increase in needed AP. Not to mention that AP in and of itself isn't finite, meaning you can farm more if you feel the need to.
I just wish I could get another way to unlock the third relic than doing that horrible class hall grind.

I guess my alts will never raid anything but LFR and not have their third relic slot since there is no way I am doing the class hall chain on another character.
...

If you had bothered to actually read the thread, you would have noticed that I was already here when you managed to stumble in.


Yes but you can't never resist trying to derail the thread by making personal attacks on me. Every single time. I don't know if I should be creeped out or flattered by your attraction to me.


I have a short list of that are on here all day every day complaining about WoW. You are on that list. Simple as that.

And it helps when you say stupid things. Like when you were complaining for nearly two months about an xpac you had yet to actually play.
Any alt you actually play will be caught up to your main before 7.2 releases.

The current AK cap is 25, that's 125 days from hitting 110, so for people who hit 110 in the first few days that's ~45 days from now, which is ~1 week into January.

Most people don't expect 7.2 to come out for 3-4 months after that. Meaning you have ~5-6 months starting right now to get to AK cap.

In a few weeks when 7.1.5 comes out, you can instantly buy up to AK10, meaning you only need to research 15 levels, which is 75 days of research (more like 50-60 with reduced time due to being behind) from cap.

All these complaints are incredibly short sighted, they have fixes coming in the form of additional mechanics (instant AK10) and in the form of our mains hitting there caps.

Everyone just needs to calm down and show a little patience.
My main issue isn't alts, is to "switch" mains.
I am married, kids, work and can't really commit a specific window of weekly time to have the luxury of a guild - I have to PUG.

Given that I have to PUG, I learned in WoD that if I pick the wrong class/spec I can't have my application accepted (as a tank) unless I spend much of my little time to play searching for groups till I am finally accepted. I started with a druid tank, and changed to Monk in the middle of Highmaul.
Best decision ever. I could easily get into groups because everyone considered monks good for PUGs, and they in fact were. It wasn't hard to catch up with all the others, we didn't have to farm that much reputation, nigthfallen or farm AP and wait patiently for AK.
And Now? I insisted too much on Vengeance and my Druid has only AK 6. And I have to farm all rep in all factions.

So my problem is that its really difficult to PUG with a demon hunter tank for Heroic Raids (normal is ok, I vastly outgear the content so I am really accepted) and I understand, there is really a sensible difference between tanks that translate to wipes, people leaving and a PUG destroyed.
I also understand that the developers have their views on balance and are usually slow in fixing things - I think vengeance will be on par with other tanks by 7.2 and by then it will be stablished in the community the superiority in learning curve, ilvl and acceptance of Druids and Warriors.
I just want to play the game and PUG, I accept the devs have no control on community perception, I just want it to be easier to switch mains.
just this.
11/22/2016 06:53 AMPosted by Spy
Except for the part where they don't. The gain in AK isn't symmetrical to the increase in needed AP. Not to mention that AP in and of itself isn't finite, meaning you can farm more if you feel the need to.


The gains in AK reflect a certain "timeframe" where normal farming should get you X Trait.

If you're ahead on traits, you're in the "struggle zone". If you're behind on traits, you're in the "This is way too fast" zone.

If you're in the middle, you're in the "1 trait each 4 days" zone, basically, a new trait unlocks each time your AK goes up or relative close to it.
11/22/2016 06:57 AMPosted by Ariktu
I just wish I could get another way to unlock the third relic than doing that horrible class hall grind.

I guess my alts will never raid anything but LFR and not have their third relic slot since there is no way I am doing the class hall chain on another character.


Calling a quest which takes less than 1 week to complete a grind is just pathetic. MMOs don't seem to be for you if that's too much time.
11/22/2016 06:59 AMPosted by Spy
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Yes but you can't never resist trying to derail the thread by making personal attacks on me. Every single time. I don't know if I should be creeped out or flattered by your attraction to me.


I have a short list of that are on here all day every day complaining about WoW. You are on that list. Simple as that.

And it helps when you say stupid things. Like when you were complaining for nearly two months about an xpac you had yet to actually play.


I was providing feedback about the design. I didn't need to experience an expansion to know I didn't care for the design.

And so you keep a list of people to troll, that does sound sort of sick really. You might want to have that checked out, but in short I guess that means you don't have anything better to do with your life. That is sort of sad actually - I wouldn't want to deprive you of the little pleasure you get from life so just continue.

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