Please make the game more Alt Friendly.

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11/22/2016 05:05 AMPosted by Crepe
Planeshaper, that's not an alt. That's "I want to play one character and have instant access to everything on any character I choose."

I play a lot of alts. Some are behind others. That's OK. They're not instantly heroic EN ready. That's OK, too.

They play the content that's appropriate to them. I have one that just ran its first heroic yesterday. It did OK. I was nearly last on the meter because I ended up in the same instance as a guildie who rocked the instance. Again... that's OK.

What you propose would take away nearly all of the replayability I have in my alts. Every single one would bypass nearly all the content. OK, I can run EN. And... that's it.

Just because you have alts doesn't mean you need to have them instantly at max level and instantly geared and instantly through the grinds associated with playing the game. Because that's part of playing the game.

We're in an expansion where Blizzard finally got the idea we need stuff to do. I'm mostly done with that stuff. My first character does the 4 WQs a day and a heroic a day and raids on guild alt night. I'd really, really, really rather not do that with 6 characters (I have 6 at max level currently.)

I want to run normal dungeons. Then heroics. I want to grind out gear and AP and search through WQs for rewards that advance my characters. Because the entire game is not about having everything done. It's about the process of getting there.


I had a discussion with someone the other on this exactly. Some how there's been a lot of confusion of what an alt is now a days. I agree with your post 100% Crepe, alts are not meant for being maxed geared, maxed professions, maxed rep etc instantly, alts take time to build and is not a priority..if it was then we would have a lot of mains. I think people have been spoiled on the downtime and easy mode in previous expansions. We have an AP grind now and people jump and yell this isn't an alt friendly expansion when indeed it is. I have alts, one is heroic EN/Mythic dungeon rdy and the other is Normal EN/heroic dungeon rdy oh and I'm currently working on a Monk on the side. Not to mention guys that you can Boost your way to 100 lol... this game has been alt friendly since Wrath and some even say late BC. The level of confusion and entitlement is sad. All you guys are doing by making these claims is influencing Blizz to water down this game more than what it is.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Tunehots/simple

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Tuneshamzo/simple

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/sargeras/Tunemonk/simple
11/22/2016 06:40 AMPosted by Berith
These threads always seem to devolve into "I can't have Alts as progressed as my main!" as the complaint.

Well duh. An alt is about replaying the content. Not a "Main swap" service. There's already good catch-up in place for alts, 7.1 brought some more (removing rep requirements from Suramar dungeons), 7.1.5 is bringing more, and 7.2 and beyond will also increase the catch-up in place.

This is the same discussion we have every expansion, for different reasons. People say "Artifacts make it different this time!" are the new "Garrisons make it different this time!" people from 6.0, "VP gear locked behind Daily rep grinds!" people from 5.0, etc.. etc..


People are playing the game differently. Blizzard designs this game for the 'typical' raider who tends to concentrate most of his time gearing up one toon at the start of the expansion and then taking that toon into raids. People who don't raid tend to want to lvl up all their toons or most of their toons at the start of the expansion and then they end up hitting masses of content designed for the player, playing one toon.
To be honest, I am confused by why non-competitive people are so bent out of shape over AP. I've been pushed into healing mythic 8+ and mythic raids with 10 points into my artifact. My alts run mythic+ with 15 and my dps is fine.

I actually find it more annoying that you need to find the artifact gems to boost the item level oN melee.

To each their own. That is just my opinion on the matter.
11/22/2016 06:59 AMPosted by Spy
...

Yes but you can't never resist trying to derail the thread by making personal attacks on me. Every single time. I don't know if I should be creeped out or flattered by your attraction to me.


I have a short list of that are on here all day every day complaining about WoW. You are on that list. Simple as that.

And it helps when you say stupid things. Like when you were complaining for nearly two months about an xpac you had yet to actually play.


And you, Jay, are on a short list of worthless trolls who literally spend all day here instead of playing the game you supposedly love so much. I mean, weren't you over 10k+ posts a couple months ago? Which would mean you got banned and have since posted almost another 3000?

Jay Wilson (aka Spy) has a lot of time on his hands these days now that he has quit developing games and started his "writing" career.

Not many of us expected that "writing career" meant defending his idiotic design decisions on GD though...
They really needed to just have order hall resources account wide tbh, with no cap
...

I have a short list of that are on here all day every day complaining about WoW. You are on that list. Simple as that.

And it helps when you say stupid things. Like when you were complaining for nearly two months about an xpac you had yet to actually play.


And you, Jay, are on a short list of worthless trolls who literally spend all day here instead of playing the game you supposedly love so much. I mean, weren't you over 10k+ posts a couple months ago? Which would mean you got banned and have since posted almost another 3000?

Jay Wilson (aka Spy) has a lot of time on his hands these days now that he has quit developing games and started his "writing" career.

Not many of us expected that "writing career" meant defending his idiotic design decisions on GD though...


Speaking of that shortlist, here's entry #1. This particular one has decided that I work for Blizz, or used to or something. Supposedly, this is the last day of Spamcow's sub. We will see...
11/22/2016 06:53 AMPosted by Spy
Except for the part where they don't. The gain in AK isn't symmetrical to the increase in needed AP.

This observation is right, but your conclusions are incorrect. When you pass your 34th trait, AK increases at a faster rate than needed AP does. The needed AP scaling is much lower on the last 20 traits than people's AK levels will actually scale.

That's exactly what will cause people to push ahead of new characters made today, or alts getting to 100 today. Even after the "instant AK 10," that same barrier will present itself. Being instantly at AK 10 at the point it gets implemented is still being months behind.

And AP is indeed effectively finite. The ROI asymptotically decreases within the same AK level, and there is only so much time in the day.

11/22/2016 06:40 AMPosted by Berith
Well duh. An alt is about replaying the content.

I disagree. An alt is about being able to perform on multiple classes and for multiple tasks reliably for your team.

Perception of the gameplay on an alt also provides insight into the experience for a fresh or returning player.
11/22/2016 05:05 AMPosted by Crepe
I want to grind out gear and AP


Lies, no one wants this.
11/22/2016 07:46 AMPosted by Sepherin
11/22/2016 05:05 AMPosted by Crepe
I want to grind out gear and AP


Lies, no one wants this.


Sorry to break it to you but that's an immature/general statement. Lots of people including myself loves the gear grind..wait is this an MMO? Oh it is..this is WoW. As far as the AP grind, on my alt druid my wep is currently 889 ilvl pretty advanced for rarely playing it and only done 50 WQ if you look in my achieves. How do I get AP on my alt? I run Heroics/Mythics/Mythic +'s on the weekends when I need a break from herbing. I rlly don't care for my progress on my wep actually since it's my Herbalist/Alchemist and yet I still have her decently geared so early in the expansion lol...I guess I'm doing something wrong :/
Totally agree, they totally missed the boat on this one. It's not just playing alts, say you want to switch your main, with all the gating you will be behind for a long time before you character catches up.

World Questing (daily)
Storyline Questing
Order Hall Questing
Champion Questing
Required Dungeon Questing Runs
Optional Dungeon Questing Runs
Artifact Power (constant grind)
Artifact Knowledge (days turn into weeks)
Artifact Relics (various ways to obtain)
Resource Reseach (hours turn into days turn into weeks, plus steep resource grind)
Table Missions (Daily)
Champion Leveling (Days turn into weeks)
Champion Gearing (Days turn into weeks)
Normal Dungeon Runs for Gearing
Heroic Dungeon Runs for Gearing
Mythic+ Dungeon Run for Gearing

I am sure that is not everything and the point is that some of this can be stream lined for alts, switching of mains or specializations. Example could be making artifact relics account bound(should be able to use them on any character instead of selling them), or artifact knowledge account bound but make it apply once your alt hits 110, or like Diablo make artifact power account bound so it can be spent on all charaters(like paragon levels).

Players want choices and to have fun, all this gating, extra grinding and meaningles time sinks are nonsense.

BTW love world quest way better than the boring old school daily quests.

Rock on!
11/22/2016 07:23 AMPosted by Spy

Speaking of that shortlist, here's entry #1. This particular one has decided that I work for Blizz, or used to or something. Supposedly, this is the last day of Spamcow's sub. We will see...


I'm honored to be at the top of your list... thanks Jay!

Tomorrow it ends but I don't know if I'll be able to post or not tomorrow. You're going to miss me, aren't you? You don't have to admit it here Jay, I know you care deep down :).
11/22/2016 05:05 AMPosted by Crepe
Planeshaper, that's not an alt. That's "I want to play one character and have instant access to everything on any character I choose."

I play a lot of alts. Some are behind others. That's OK. They're not instantly heroic EN ready. That's OK, too.

They play the content that's appropriate to them. I have one that just ran its first heroic yesterday. It did OK. I was nearly last on the meter because I ended up in the same instance as a guildie who rocked the instance. Again... that's OK.

What you propose would take away nearly all of the replayability I have in my alts. Every single one would bypass nearly all the content. OK, I can run EN. And... that's it.

Just because you have alts doesn't mean you need to have them instantly at max level and instantly geared and instantly through the grinds associated with playing the game. Because that's part of playing the game.

We're in an expansion where Blizzard finally got the idea we need stuff to do. I'm mostly done with that stuff. My first character does the 4 WQs a day and a heroic a day and raids on guild alt night. I'd really, really, really rather not do that with 6 characters (I have 6 at max level currently.)

I want to run normal dungeons. Then heroics. I want to grind out gear and AP and search through WQs for rewards that advance my characters. Because the entire game is not about having everything done. It's about the process of getting there.
well not everyone is you lol. I would l love to have my heals up to speed with my main warrior. But that'll never happen.
11/22/2016 05:46 AMPosted by Spy
Ignoring for the moment the fact that most of what you said is just wrong, the fact that you are complaining about having to level 5 of the same class causes me to lose whatever speck of pity I had for you.

Legion is one of the most alt friendly xpacs ever. Unless you don't actually want to play your alt and instead want to "skip to the end" to have several "mains", then it's not so great, by design.


I don't need your pity so i am ok with that. I also have not complained about leveling anything. I did not get a ton of high level alts because i hate leveling or it is even a problem. Leveling is very easy and not a factor in my original post at all.

We have discussed this in other posts, i want to be able to play my 5 Paladins when i want and how i want. I am not asking to be able to walk into raiding as i do not raid and have not raided current content since vanilla and Naxx40. You already know i play my alts as we have discussed that. What bothers me is that the system as it is setup now means that my alts have a very long painful time of waiting to be anywhere close to as effective.

My Idea of an alt may be different than what others think it is. For me an alt is something i can pickup and have in some decent shape relatively quickly to play, not to dominate things. I would probably characterize all of my toons as alts with no main but i do recognize that i have 1 or 2 toons that would be considered "mains" due to time played and how much further ahead they might be.

For me it is about choice, if i want to play my Male Human Ret or my Male Draenei Ret why should they be so far apart even if they were at 110 within a couple of weeks of play, why should my second have to sit and wait on AK so i can get AP enough to make it relatively close...not to mention the time already needed to get everything else. Rep is not that big of a deal for me but i can understand the gripes about the rep grind for Nightfallen since it is a beast. Professions are not a super huge deal as it is not how i make all my money.

I do like the mechanic i did not know about to get Order hall resources account bound and i would love to see some more of that type of thing as i said in my original post.

Also, please don't derail my thread with arguments about who said what and when in other posts or some forum vendetta or whatever, please stay on topic and continue this discussion as i like to hear others thoughts on it and see where people are. I had not even thought about the swapping mains issue and to me that is a very valid and honest point, what if you decided to swap mains today to a toon that is level 103 but you are enjoying playing now? It would be a very long road to get them up to speed.

2nd Edit: Furthermore as we have discussed in previous threads i have geared up to 8 toons simultaneously in previous seasons in arena, that is what i want out of my alts, the ability to take them into BG's, RBG's (if i decided too, usually yolo) and/or arena or skirmishes and feel as though i can compete with the opposite team, not have one of my alts with a 806 weapon while my other one has an 862 and my "main" has an 890 (numbers i picked out of thin air, not factual), the divergence is immense and that is not even counting the armor differences which i don't have too much of an issue with but would like to see made purchasable without reqs, especially given their limited use as "starter" sets and very low ilvl cap.
My alts are fine thru the 100~109 levels (a few overwhelmed deaths here and there) but at 110, the power level differential is so high, it's a huge struggle. Yes, it's gear - maybe some player lack of skill (I know me!) and the mobs being 110. They know what they're doing (attack the player!!), my mage can barely kill them.

But it was the same thing with this main. As the gear got better, it all got easier/faster - can manage a full on area attack by Suramar guards. My mage dies to one guard. Maybe cuz they're clothies - next alt may be plate.

So it goes. All I know is that I have lots and lots of things to do for many months to come.

e: read the OP's post about his 5 playable paladins. Okay, that's just crazy sauce. I have lotsa priests but most are level 1 nameholders. I knew a pally in vanilla/TBC who had another one cuz he was too cheap to respec between raids to PvP. Thought he was crazy too.
11/22/2016 03:05 AMPosted by Vi
this argument of " this xpack is ultra alt unfriendly " makes absolutely 0 sense to me. the trick to getting your weapons up is wait a couple days for your AK to come in before trying to farm AP. any early farming of AP is a waste of time, just be patient for the AK to ramp up then go and blitz out there weapons. spend an hour every couple days to knock out a heap of caches and your explode your weapons up in ranks. its so effortless and fast.


Cherry-picking your post, but this is what people don't like. The response to dinging 110 should be 'HELL YA! TIME TO PLAY!!" and the response now is "hmm, 110. Guess I should start my AK research and log off for a couple weeks".

That's what I don't like about it myself.
11/22/2016 12:43 PMPosted by Primington
11/22/2016 03:05 AMPosted by Vi
this argument of " this xpack is ultra alt unfriendly " makes absolutely 0 sense to me. the trick to getting your weapons up is wait a couple days for your AK to come in before trying to farm AP. any early farming of AP is a waste of time, just be patient for the AK to ramp up then go and blitz out there weapons. spend an hour every couple days to knock out a heap of caches and your explode your weapons up in ranks. its so effortless and fast.


Cherry-picking your post, but this is what people don't like. The response to dinging 110 should be 'HELL YA! TIME TO PLAY!!" and the response now is "hmm, 110. Guess I should start my AK research and log off for a couple weeks".

That's what I don't like about it myself.


That is the reality of it though, i mean honestly what the game plays is ok i hit 110 now what? Well lets go get some Order resources and work though the campaign but to be honest doing a full grind on each alt would be way to time intensive for an alt. I do like to play my alts but its not like i don't have other alts or my main to play AND the power gap is pretty wide since the "starter" set is also gating as much as the weapon is and there is very little to be done to fix that, but mostly its the weapon that slows things down because you CANNOT improve upon it without AK, even farming AP gets out of hand pretty fast without AK.
11/22/2016 07:07 AMPosted by Roxette
People are playing the game differently. Blizzard designs this game for the 'typical' raider who tends to concentrate most of his time gearing up one toon at the start of the expansion and then taking that toon into raids. People who don't raid tend to want to lvl up all their toons or most of their toons at the start of the expansion and then they end up hitting masses of content designed for the player, playing one toon.


This game is designed for Main play and investing into a character. That's fine. That's the RPG playstyle.

Alts are just what they are supposed to be : Alternates. Ways to enjoy the game "fresh" again from a new perspective.

Most of these threads are about the people who want to use Alts as Main swap services to FotM each time a buff or nerf goes through.

It's just counter to the RPG gaming experience.
11/22/2016 07:26 AMPosted by Planeshaper
11/22/2016 06:53 AMPosted by Spy
Except for the part where they don't. The gain in AK isn't symmetrical to the increase in needed AP.

This observation is right, but your conclusions are incorrect. When you pass your 34th trait, AK increases at a faster rate than needed AP does. The needed AP scaling is much lower on the last 20 traits than people's AK levels will actually scale.

That's exactly what will cause people to push ahead of new characters made today, or alts getting to 100 today. Even after the "instant AK 10," that same barrier will present itself. Being instantly at AK 10 at the point it gets implemented is still being months behind.

And AP is indeed effectively finite. The ROI asymptotically decreases within the same AK level, and there is only so much time in the day.

11/22/2016 06:40 AMPosted by Berith
Well duh. An alt is about replaying the content.

I disagree. An alt is about being able to perform on multiple classes and for multiple tasks reliably for your team.

Perception of the gameplay on an alt also provides insight into the experience for a fresh or returning player.


The part you're not taking into consideration is that a new player would always be behind for at least awhile, depending on luck. Usually, they add in some sort of means of allowing people to skip over much of the content in order to "catchup", but even that had limits. Also, we aren't even to the first tier raid yet...
11/22/2016 12:59 PMPosted by Berith
11/22/2016 07:07 AMPosted by Roxette
People are playing the game differently. Blizzard designs this game for the 'typical' raider who tends to concentrate most of his time gearing up one toon at the start of the expansion and then taking that toon into raids. People who don't raid tend to want to lvl up all their toons or most of their toons at the start of the expansion and then they end up hitting masses of content designed for the player, playing one toon.


This game is designed for Main play and investing into a character. That's fine. That's the RPG playstyle.

Alts are just what they are supposed to be : Alternates. Ways to enjoy the game "fresh" again from a new perspective.

Most of these threads are about the people who want to use Alts as Main swap services to FotM each time a buff or nerf goes through.

It's just counter to the RPG gaming experience.


I don't think so, at least not from my point of view. While i have every class leveled to at least level 85, there are several (in each case 1 alt) i barely touch and don't look forward to finishing their leveling process. But i will do it to see what the class plays like and maybe something has changed and i will enjoy it more.

I certainly don't play my alts to be FOTM or i wouldn't have 5 Pallys. Certainly wouldn't have 6 or 7 Hunters since they play like warm garbage now and are weak.
11/22/2016 12:38 PMPosted by Vixie
My alts are fine thru the 100~109 levels (a few overwhelmed deaths here and there) but at 110, the power level differential is so high, it's a huge struggle. Yes, it's gear - maybe some player lack of skill (I know me!) and the mobs being 110. They know what they're doing (attack the player!!), my mage can barely kill them.

But it was the same thing with this main. As the gear got better, it all got easier/faster - can manage a full on area attack by Suramar guards. My mage dies to one guard. Maybe cuz they're clothies - next alt may be plate.

So it goes. All I know is that I have lots and lots of things to do for many months to come.

e: read the OP's post about his 5 playable paladins. Okay, that's just crazy sauce. I have lotsa priests but most are level 1 nameholders. I knew a pally in vanilla/TBC who had another one cuz he was too cheap to respec between raids to PvP. Thought he was crazy too.


Why is having 5 playable Paladins Crazy Sauce? It is not hard to level in this game and is a fairly enjoyable experience and can be done in several ways.

TBH i haven't even brought up having to get to level 50 on each toon in PvP too, but that is definitely something that has to be looked at as far as being alt-unfriendly as well. It is game changing for PvP to have those open and it is a LONG grind to get up those 50 levels for toons.

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