Secondary nerf

7.1.5 PTR General Discussion
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12/01/2016 04:58 PMPosted by Lore
The changes to secondary stat ratings in 7.1.5 have a few goals, and certain pieces are not yet in the current build.

Goal 1: Increase the importance of item level as a guideline for upgrading items. Moreso than in the past, large item level increases are not a reliable indicator of an upgrade due to the variance in power of secondary stats on an item. Increasing the amount of rating that you need per percentage of a secondary stat tips the balance of an item’s power more heavily toward primary stat. We’re okay with very small item level upgrades being a tougher choice, but some specs are currently passing up 15+ item levels in favor of secondary stats. That shouldn’t be something players are encouraged to do – with the occasional exception on rings and necks, which brings us to our second goal.

Goal 2: Improve rings and necks. The removal of primary stats from those slots on Legion gear means that your choices of secondary stats there are impactful, which we like. However, they still suffer from the problem of secondary stat distribution dominating the choice of which item to equip. We’ve increased how heavily item level affects the amount of stats on Legion rings and necks in 7.1.5, which will make significant item level jumps a clearer indicator of an upgrade on these slots. You’ll still find situations in which secondary stat choice is more important than item level for rings and necks, which is intentional; we’re just dialing it back a bit.

Goal 3: Don’t lower player power. This is a key part of the overall strategy that isn’t yet complete. Right now, on the PTR, player power is definitely down a few percent compared to live. The next build will have changes that increase the total amount of stats given by all items above level 800 to account for this gap, such that the overall power of your equipped items should be about the same (if not slightly higher) than it is currently in 7.1.

As you might expect, these changes will affect some classes more strongly than others. More overall character power will come from your primary stats than it did before, so all of your abilities will hit harder, even if they crit less or happen less frequently. Additionally, as we continue tuning for Patch 7.1.5, we’ll make adjustments as necessary on a spec-by-spec basis.
Do you currently plan on nerfing/buffing the net impact of gems on stats to meet these goals?
12/01/2016 05:04 PMPosted by Yuda
Apologies if I'm reading this wrong. But it sounds like the plan is to make us require more of a secondary stat, then provide us a higher value of secondary stats on existing gear.

Isn't this counterproductive or am I just derp?


It's a tough bit of mathematical gymnastics that's tough to explain succinctly, but the long and the short of it is that the way that the item's primary stat (or sheer amount of secondary stats, in the case of rings and necks) make the higher-ilevel piece an upgrade more often.
I think they need to look into specs that rely on extreme cases of secondary dependence and adjust those specs accordingly. This blanket nerf is going to cause more problems.
12/01/2016 05:09 PMPosted by Darroh
I think they need to look into specs that rely on extreme cases of secondary dependence and adjust those specs accordingly. This blanket nerf is going to cause more problems.

That's what I was getting at in the last paragraph :)
12/01/2016 05:09 PMPosted by Lore
It's a tough bit of mathematical gymnastics that's tough to explain succinctly, but the long and the short of it is that the way that the item's primary stat (or sheer amount of secondary stats, in the case of rings and necks) make the higher-ilevel piece an upgrade more often.


Thanks for communicating with us, dude. I'll have faith that you guys will do your best and hope that you'll listen to the vigilante class accountants that number crunch the hell out of their classes.

WW is peaking early, I hope whatever this does, keeps us viable in PVE.
12/01/2016 04:58 PMPosted by Lore
The changes to secondary stat ratings in 7.1.5 have a few goals, and certain pieces are not yet in the current build.

Goal 1: Increase the importance of item level as a guideline for upgrading items. Moreso than in the past, large item level increases are not a reliable indicator of an upgrade due to the variance in power of secondary stats on an item. Increasing the amount of rating that you need per percentage of a secondary stat tips the balance of an item’s power more heavily toward primary stat. We’re okay with very small item level upgrades being a tougher choice, but some specs are currently passing up 15+ item levels in favor of secondary stats. That shouldn’t be something players are encouraged to do – with the occasional exception on rings and necks, which brings us to our second goal.

Goal 2: Improve rings and necks. The removal of primary stats from those slots on Legion gear means that your choices of secondary stats there are impactful, which we like. However, they still suffer from the problem of secondary stat distribution dominating the choice of which item to equip. We’ve increased how heavily item level affects the amount of stats on Legion rings and necks in 7.1.5, which will make significant item level jumps a clearer indicator of an upgrade on these slots. You’ll still find situations in which secondary stat choice is more important than item level for rings and necks, which is intentional; we’re just dialing it back a bit.

Goal 3: Don’t lower player power. This is a key part of the overall strategy that isn’t yet complete. Right now, on the PTR, player power is definitely down a few percent compared to live. The next build will have changes that increase the total amount of stats given by all items above level 800 to account for this gap, such that the overall power of your equipped items should be about the same (if not slightly higher) than it is currently in 7.1.

As you might expect, these changes will affect some classes more strongly than others. More overall character power will come from your primary stats than it did before, so all of your abilities will hit harder, even if they crit less or happen less frequently. Additionally, as we continue tuning for Patch 7.1.5, we’ll make adjustments as necessary on a spec-by-spec basis.


It's a good thing there are only damage dealers in this game... You guys seem to have forgotten that tank damage comes in second to survivability by a large margin and that my primary stat does next to nothing to help it. The blanket nerf means I have to get haste on everything. #FacePalm
12/01/2016 05:09 PMPosted by Lore
12/01/2016 05:04 PMPosted by Yuda
Apologies if I'm reading this wrong. But it sounds like the plan is to make us require more of a secondary stat, then provide us a higher value of secondary stats on existing gear.

Isn't this counterproductive or am I just derp?


It's a tough bit of mathematical gymnastics that's tough to explain succinctly, but the long and the short of it is that the way that the item's primary stat (or sheer amount of secondary stats, in the case of rings and necks) make the higher-ilevel piece an upgrade more often.


So the goal is to have the lack of secondary made up by rings/necks (more RNG gearing, thanks for that) so that if a piece with a primary stat is 15 item levels higher than what you are wearing, it is always an upgrade simply due to mainstat?
Thanks for this Lore. I recall you guys saying you were going to go down this path in the last q&a, so it's nice to see that full plan coming to fruition. As an spriest, having haste worth 2x the value of intellect is quite ridiculous, and I am still sporting a couple items below 850 even though I have a few over 865. Whatever you guys can do to limit those situations is greatly appreciated.
12/01/2016 05:09 PMPosted by Darroh
I think they need to look into specs that rely on extreme cases of secondary dependence and adjust those specs accordingly. This blanket nerf is going to cause more problems.


Well, it's not entirely a blanket nerf. It addresses the problem of secondaries growing out of control too quickly in Legion, although a few outlier specs will probably remain problematic. I would guess Fire Mage is a prime example.

There may need to be re-works to the spec that this stat re-adjustment (since it's not really a "squish" after we've taken in the information the developers just posted in this thread 10 minutes ago) to bring those outlier specs up to par with other specs.

IMO this will be much like WoD. Many specs do well early and mid-expansion, and a few specs, just because of how they're built, will take off and shine in the last tier of content. I think this patch, 7.1.5, and the stat adjustments coming with it is a step toward that direction.

Not saying I like or dislike it yet. I was pretty vocally against this stat squish. But, if I end up with mostly the same mastery and crit for my Arcane and Frost specs in 7.1.5 as I currently have on live, I'll be happy. I really just don't want to lose damage due to damage checks on raid encounters (Guarm and Ursoc come to mind) or be less viable for the same level of Mythic+ I'm doing currently.

I would say this is probably a good change overall, but we only have an incomplete picture. The slightly reassuring part is that we could get a bigger boost to our gear than we're anticipating and many of us may come out ahead of where we are currently, which might be nice.
12/01/2016 05:04 PMPosted by Yuda
12/01/2016 04:58 PMPosted by Lore
Increasing the amount of rating that you need per percentage of a secondary stat tips the balance of an item’s power more heavily toward primary stat.


12/01/2016 04:58 PMPosted by Lore
The next build will have changes that increase the total amount of stats given by all items above level 800 to account for this gap


Apologies if I'm reading this wrong. But it sounds like the plan is to make us require more of a secondary stat, then provide us a higher value of secondary stats on existing gear.

Isn't this counterproductive or am I just derp?

Can't argue with your assessment. It seems pretty derp to me.
A 15 ilevel gap still seems pretty dang big to me, certainly not what I would call small by any stretch.

I did a bit of messing around when I character copied over last night, nice to know my legendary boots are finally an upgrade, but it didn't appear a cloak I swapped out that was 10 ilevel difference ( and still had crit on it ) was anything more than a push at best. I guess that falls in line with the +15 thing, but 865-875 should be an upgrade imo.
12/01/2016 05:14 PMPosted by Adíos
Thanks for this Lore. I recall you guys saying you were going to go down this path in the last q&a, so it's nice to see that full plan coming to fruition. As an spriest, having haste worth 2x the value of intellect is quite ridiculous, and I am still sporting a couple items below 850 even though I have a few over 865. Whatever you guys can do to limit those situations is greatly appreciated.


The problem is, the proposed solution doesn't change this. Haste will still be worth twice as much as int, but your non ring/neck will have less haste period, so even though it is worth twice as much, an upgrade will have so much int you might think twice about not equipping that piece of gear if the item level is high enough.
12/01/2016 05:11 PMPosted by Lore
12/01/2016 05:09 PMPosted by Darroh
I think they need to look into specs that rely on extreme cases of secondary dependence and adjust those specs accordingly. This blanket nerf is going to cause more problems.

That's what I was getting at in the last paragraph :)


I hope that means arms warriors as well, because mastery is valued over strength right now. It's at the point that item upgrades aren't upgrades if they don't have mastery on them. I myself use 845 items gear (not rings or necklaces) over 860+ gear.
12/01/2016 04:58 PMPosted by Lore
The changes to secondary stat ratings in 7.1.5 have a few goals, and certain pieces are not yet in the current build.

Goal 1: Increase the importance of item level as a guideline for upgrading items. Moreso than in the past, large item level increases are not a reliable indicator of an upgrade due to the variance in power of secondary stats on an item. Increasing the amount of rating that you need per percentage of a secondary stat tips the balance of an item’s power more heavily toward primary stat. We’re okay with very small item level upgrades being a tougher choice, but some specs are currently passing up 15+ item levels in favor of secondary stats. That shouldn’t be something players are encouraged to do – with the occasional exception on rings and necks, which brings us to our second goal.

Goal 2: Improve rings and necks. The removal of primary stats from those slots on Legion gear means that your choices of secondary stats there are impactful, which we like. However, they still suffer from the problem of secondary stat distribution dominating the choice of which item to equip. We’ve increased how heavily item level affects the amount of stats on Legion rings and necks in 7.1.5, which will make significant item level jumps a clearer indicator of an upgrade on these slots. You’ll still find situations in which secondary stat choice is more important than item level for rings and necks, which is intentional; we’re just dialing it back a bit.

Goal 3: Don’t lower player power. This is a key part of the overall strategy that isn’t yet complete. Right now, on the PTR, player power is definitely down a few percent compared to live. The next build will have changes that increase the total amount of stats given by all items above level 800 to account for this gap, such that the overall power of your equipped items should be about the same (if not slightly higher) than it is currently in 7.1.

As you might expect, these changes will affect some classes more strongly than others. More overall character power will come from your primary stats than it did before, so all of your abilities will hit harder, even if they crit less or happen less frequently. Additionally, as we continue tuning for Patch 7.1.5, we’ll make adjustments as necessary on a spec-by-spec basis.
gonna have to throw a BS flag on that play... in 12 years i have NEVER seen you guys every look at every spec and think about balance realistically.

Just going based on history d- Mages are going to get a big boost, warriors will get a boost, as will rogues; hunters, druids, shamans and DKs are going to drop like stones.

I do hope its truth, but after 12 years i highly doubt it will happen.
12/01/2016 05:11 PMPosted by Lore
12/01/2016 05:09 PMPosted by Darroh
I think they need to look into specs that rely on extreme cases of secondary dependence and adjust those specs accordingly. This blanket nerf is going to cause more problems.

That's what I was getting at in the last paragraph :)


You're right! I hope Blood DK is on your radar - I know I'm doing a lot of advocating here, but Haste/ Blood DK is really the main interaction I'm directly familiar with in regards to the importance of secondary stats, so that's my frame of reference. There is already a lot of concern about the posted changes to resource generation.
As much as this is appreciated, could low performing specs like Unholy and Ele Sham get some feedback?
12/01/2016 05:11 PMPosted by Lore
12/01/2016 05:09 PMPosted by Darroh
I think they need to look into specs that rely on extreme cases of secondary dependence and adjust those specs accordingly. This blanket nerf is going to cause more problems.

That's what I was getting at in the last paragraph :)


Nerf Emerald Dreamcatcher, buff baseline Moonkin with part of the nerfed bit, no more ridiculous Haste reliance. Please kthx, will give cat treats and leftover Thanksgiving ham to cute fiery kitties :D
12/01/2016 05:11 PMPosted by Lore
12/01/2016 05:09 PMPosted by Darroh
I think they need to look into specs that rely on extreme cases of secondary dependence and adjust those specs accordingly. This blanket nerf is going to cause more problems.

That's what I was getting at in the last paragraph :)


Honestly I can't believe you guys are doing this so soon into the expansion. There are some seriously flawed designs that the team responsible for them should be a little less stubborn and listen to people that have been playing the game longer than some of them have worked for blizzard.
12/01/2016 05:16 PMPosted by Eckoh
12/01/2016 04:58 PMPosted by Lore
The changes to secondary stat ratings in 7.1.5 have a few goals, and certain pieces are not yet in the current build.

Goal 1: Increase the importance of item level as a guideline for upgrading items. Moreso than in the past, large item level increases are not a reliable indicator of an upgrade due to the variance in power of secondary stats on an item. Increasing the amount of rating that you need per percentage of a secondary stat tips the balance of an item’s power more heavily toward primary stat. We’re okay with very small item level upgrades being a tougher choice, but some specs are currently passing up 15+ item levels in favor of secondary stats. That shouldn’t be something players are encouraged to do – with the occasional exception on rings and necks, which brings us to our second goal.

Goal 2: Improve rings and necks. The removal of primary stats from those slots on Legion gear means that your choices of secondary stats there are impactful, which we like. However, they still suffer from the problem of secondary stat distribution dominating the choice of which item to equip. We’ve increased how heavily item level affects the amount of stats on Legion rings and necks in 7.1.5, which will make significant item level jumps a clearer indicator of an upgrade on these slots. You’ll still find situations in which secondary stat choice is more important than item level for rings and necks, which is intentional; we’re just dialing it back a bit.

Goal 3: Don’t lower player power. This is a key part of the overall strategy that isn’t yet complete. Right now, on the PTR, player power is definitely down a few percent compared to live. The next build will have changes that increase the total amount of stats given by all items above level 800 to account for this gap, such that the overall power of your equipped items should be about the same (if not slightly higher) than it is currently in 7.1.

As you might expect, these changes will affect some classes more strongly than others. More overall character power will come from your primary stats than it did before, so all of your abilities will hit harder, even if they crit less or happen less frequently. Additionally, as we continue tuning for Patch 7.1.5, we’ll make adjustments as necessary on a spec-by-spec basis.
gonna have to throw a BS flag on that play... in 12 years i have NEVER seen you guys every look at every spec and think about balance realistically.

Just going based on history d- Mages are going to get a big boost, warriors will get a boost, as will rogues; hunters, druids, shamans and DKs are going to drop like stones.

I do hope its truth, but after 12 years i highly doubt it will happen.


Unfortunately, this guy is right. Many of these wild stat imbalances were brought up repeatedly when it should have been fixed (alpha and beta) and nothing was done. Now all of a sudden you are listening and plan on taking a look at it? Why is it an issue now, but it wasn't then? Why was SPriest needing haste to the exclusion of all else ok for 8 months of testing, but now suddenly it is a problem? Why during all that time did we get no communication about these problems, or the intent behind letting these problems go live, but now all of a sudden it is an issue that is being looked at? And if your goal is to improve rings and necks, why are you doubling down on your secondary only itemization? Instead of complicated math gymnastics, simply adding back main stat would do that.
12/01/2016 04:58 PMPosted by Lore
Goal 1: Increase the importance of item level as a guideline for upgrading items.


12/01/2016 04:58 PMPosted by Lore
Goal 2: Improve rings and neck


Wonder if I'll get an apology from everyone that said I was wrong ?

Called it.

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