7.1.5 Fire changes

Mage
Prev 1 5 6 7 26 Next
11/16/2016 03:43 PMPosted by Akarii
11/16/2016 03:24 PMPosted by Ornyx
As a long time fire mage player (among other classes, don't pigeonhole me :P ), I think it's very fair to say the spec needed some adjustments - that's something I've heard in Trade and Guild Chat since Legion day one (even the post above me is a player who boosted a mage for this reason).

While there are some (what I personally feel) valid concerns with how adjustments affect investment into Artifacts, our adjustments aren't of the caliber that should warrant "FIRE IS DEAD" being screamed from the mountaintops. We want players to play the spec they want, and not focus on switching in an out of the FotM every patch cycle.

Anyways, it's good to note that we are still iterating on 7.1.5, and we are by no means patch-complete at this point. We are not currently in a state where we are ready to share detailed thoughts on Fire until the changes are fully implemented.

Datamining is not always something you should be going by 100% when providing feedback - just something to keep in mind.

It's concerning that you are trying to justify nerfs with things you hear from guild chat and trade chat. Fact of the matter is, fire is just fine at the moment. It's not too strong, it's not too weak. Just fine. Every logging metric in the world corroborates this, the only people screaming fire is OP are daily dungeon heroes and trolls. Thanks for communicating at least.


+1000

At least the Devs are reading this but why don't you use statistics from WCL that includes THOUSANDS of parses and every measurable tool , instead of "trade chat and guild talk" Trade chat, really? Was there an "anal " conversation in between this great talk about how fire mages are so OP
.
Jesus christ they don't even seem to know that they are nerfing the legendary bracers into a stat stick.

...

Honestly, the way Ornyx is talking right now I have massive doubts as to whether he, or anyone on the mage development team, is actually playing the class right now.
11/16/2016 05:04 PMPosted by Jeallous
Ooh, multiple blue responses to mage whining, only a few hours after PTR changes datamined!

This can only mean that a 3-sentence response to rogue nerfs (including to outlaw of all things - already dead last and played by barely anyone in mythics)... is only a couple of months away!


You have summed up part of the reason so many are frustrated.

The developers seem to have lost sight of what they created with this expac and instead of focusing on fixing broken classes they react to the childish masses screaming for nerfs without even understanding fight mechanics, where the dps comes from and the difference between ilvl/skill/dps.

This is why i am starting to hate MMORPG's, i love the idea of working hard to become better as i am admittedly an average player and i am not anywhere close to where a good/great mage playing my account would be able to achieve.

But, if it makes you feel any better maybe mages might be in the lower section of the dps charts and almost as useless.

Because we all know misery loves company, and sadly humanity is never capable being happy for someone elses success. Instead we always want to destroy and ensure that we are all just as ****ing miserable.
Hey all,

As a quick example of the "in flux" status of 7.1.5, we are currently testing a change to the Marquee Bindings that would bring the damage down to 250% instead of 200% (down from 300% on live).

Keep in mind that the PTR is NOT FINAL and we are still testing numerous changes to various specs and items.
11/16/2016 05:12 PMPosted by Mavisbeacon
Jesus christ they don't even seem to know that they are nerfing the legendary bracers into a stat stick.

...

Honestly, the way Ornyx is talking right now I have massive doubts as to whether he, or anyone on the mage development team, is actually playing the class right now.


If bracers go live as is, no one will use them outside of a stat stick. Didn't blizzard ALSO say they wanted rotation changing BIS legendarys and were happy with the system. Yet I don't see other classes BIS legendarys getting nerfed
11/16/2016 05:13 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

As a quick example of the "in flux" status of 7.1.5, we are currently testing a change to the Marquee Bindings that would bring the damage down to 250% instead of 200% (down from 300% on live).


With ice flows, that is reasonable
How it felt loading the forums today: https://media.tenor.co/images/dd72ee9e6b0abb94b354d212b81a28eb/raw
.
11/16/2016 03:56 PMPosted by Ornyx
11/16/2016 03:43 PMPosted by Akarii
...
It's concerning that you are trying to justify nerfs with things you hear from guild chat and trade chat. Fact of the matter is, fire is just fine at the moment. It's not too strong, it's not too weak. Just fine. Every logging metric in the world corroborates this, the only people screaming fire is OP are daily dungeon heroes and trolls. Thanks for communicating at least.

There's really no difference between trying to justify nerfs with conversation on the forums than with chats with players in game than with players on Social Media. Every voice matters, and channel with a voice is just as valid as the next.

Nerfs aren't "justified" through conversation alone - in fact I think "justified" is a dangerous word to use here. The developers are looking at tons of information when they make these adjustments. I'm not saying conversation didn't impact changes at all (the previous were my notes, and I'm not a developer), but there are more than enough cases where people laugh and tell their fellow mages to be quiet or they will get them nerfed to cause a bit of an eyebrow raise for myself.

Ion went over why the Bracers are being changed during BlizzCon. You can find information on that elsewhere, as I don't have it readily available to repeat. But every pack should be what you consider "middle of the pack" in an ideal world. Raid vs Mythic environments adjust this, of course, but I don't see Fire falling off the deep end because of this.

In fact, with future secondary stat changes (talked about in the post BlizzCon Q&A) I think gear scaling will improve ten fold, and I foresee that these changes will actually be better long term.

Let's have a deeper discussion on this once 7.1.5 changes are finalized on the PTR, but I'll gather the feedback here for now and send it over.


Let me understand this right - you decide changes based on conversations? What kind of a dev team are we talking about here? Every logging site has Fire as mid-pack - I would like to at least know the channel for the 'tons' of information that this dev team apparently processes to arrive at decisions.

This is a new PTR build - if you don't want us up in arms based on datamined info, you should release patch notes. Especially, when you are making mechanical changes to so many specs...forget the nerfs to numbers, Blizzard assured us that mechanical changes to specs would be avoided unless absolutely necessary.
Just delete the damn bracers from the game and leave fire alone. There - thats your simple fix. But no, you introduce a new legendary with a stupid effect because of which you have to nerf combustion.
If you really play a fire mage (which I doubt), tell me how are you going to use the bracers without ice floes? more important, why would you use it?

The secondary stats are way higher now than they have ever been at the start of an expansion. If anything, Ion's hint was that the scaling will be reduced which means our crit would be even lower.

And we should have deeper discussions once the changes are finalized? Whats the point of that discussion?

TL;DR - you don't play a mage, none of the dev team has played a fire mage recently (or most of the other classes, for that matter), transparency on the changes and the 'why' behind them sucks (as always!)
11/16/2016 05:13 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

As a quick example of the "in flux" status of 7.1.5, we are currently testing a change to the Marquee Bindings that would bring the damage down to 250% instead of 200% (down from 300% on live).

Keep in mind that the PTR is NOT FINAL and we are still testing numerous changes to various specs and items.


Still wont help. Without ice floes it becomes a 4 second cast of death, or a massive dps loss if you have to break mid cast to move.

You cant have multiple nerfs simultaneously and know the true outcome.

Any scientist worth a pinch of !@#$ knows that when you change so many things at once you lose sight of the "control" and therefore any real objective way of determining the end result.
If we're going to get huge changes like this, can we please please please get AP refunds so we can at least feel better about putting effort into useless weapons?
11/16/2016 05:13 PMPosted by Ornyx
Keep in mind that the PTR is NOT FINAL and we are still testing numerous changes to various specs and items.


I honestly don't think anybody here is under the impression that the current iteration of the PTR is what 7.15 will be 100%, set in stone. The real discussion is about the ridiculous degree of the proposed changes, and a real curiosity about what the devs are thinking in regards to the mage class, as well as other classes.

There's no need to talk down to us, as if we don't understand what the PTR is.
11/16/2016 05:13 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

As a quick example of the "in flux" status of 7.1.5, we are currently testing a change to the Marquee Bindings that would bring the damage down to 250% instead of 200% (down from 300% on live).

Keep in mind that the PTR is NOT FINAL and we are still testing numerous changes to various specs and items.


You can iterate over the numbers as much as you want, but the entire direction of the changes is flawed. The motivational foundations upon which these changes are built are reacting to a claim that fire mages are overperforming which has no basis in reality, especially moving into a poorly itemized nighthold and already apparent in ToV progression.

I really, really appreciate you keeping us informed and I realize that it's your job to come and be the punching bag for angry players, but I really hope you're communicating to the dev team that the single biggest concerning thing about 7.1.5 right now is that you seem to be creating changes to the spec based on popular opinion rather than hard data, and there is a massive disconnect between what you seem to be reacting to with these changes and the reality of the spec we are seeing through warcraftlogs and personal progression.

For example: The problem with the bracers isn't their damage. It's that their damage is the only way to be competitive single target as a fire mage. If you nerf the bracers by (honestly what seem to be arbitrary) amounts, then all you will see is fire mages falling even further behind in that regard. All the while we are being told we still "need adjustments".

It's baffling to everyone.
11/16/2016 03:24 PMPosted by Ornyx
While there are some (what I personally feel) valid concerns with how adjustments affect investment into Artifacts, our adjustments aren't of the caliber that should warrant "FIRE IS DEAD" being screamed from the mountaintops.

Meanwhile on the PTR people are reporting 20 % less damage. Without accounting for movement.

Ornyx , I thank you very much for being here with us. But you are really making baseless points to appease the crowd. Provide proof that these changes (which devs promised not to make mid expansion regardless of what you heard on guild/trade chat!) are not killing the spec. Because that 20% DPS loss without accounting for mobility seems pretty bad.
This is why I don't even play this game seriously anymore. It's a joke most of the time.

Blizzard is renowned for making changes that make no sense. It happens in ALL of their games. They make changes a lot of the time just because they want to make something feel "Different".

Either way, I lost my respect for Blizzard A LONG time ago and their ability to Balance their games. It's pointless to try to understand their logic and changes, cause they don't play this game the same way PAYING customers do. Most likely they are super casual and have little to no understanding of the classes they are changing. Besides their narrow minded view of this "Data" they always claim to have. But guess what, the majority of the "Data" they have, will be from players who either don't care about the game as much as people who come to the forums to post feedback. This itself is very frustrating.

TL:DR. This game is balanced around casuals. They make up the Majority of the player-base. So people who voice their concerns (people who actually devote time to their class) have such a small voice. Better get used to it, cause it has been this way for a very long time. Blizzard is part of a greedy corporate Giant now, and guess what... At the end of the day, I guarantee that most employees at Blizzard care more about the the paycheck that puts food on their tables. No different then any working adult.

Oh, Why do you think so many key people left Blizzard recently? Because Blizzard is changing, for the MONEY!
How utterly unsurprising that Mages immediately get responded too, while Havoc has been waiting on some promised answers for over a month.
Ornyx, in the middle of all this (IMO pretty justified) doom and gloom, I do want to say that the change to Flame On! is a nice quality-of-life thing that I would hate to see reverted now that we know it's actually going to give us 3 charges of Fire Blast (so our rotations during Combustion will remain the same, plus we have a little extra burst potential during in-between phases.

However, I think at least part of the community's concern about removing Ice Floes is that... Quite simply putting it? It's literally the only thing on that row that will always be useful in PvE situations, and the proposed replacement isn't even close to making up for its' removal.
11/16/2016 05:13 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

As a quick example of the "in flux" status of 7.1.5, we are currently testing a change to the Marquee Bindings that would bring the damage down to 250% instead of 200% (down from 300% on live).

Keep in mind that the PTR is NOT FINAL and we are still testing numerous changes to various specs and items.


Weird priorities
11/16/2016 05:31 PMPosted by Korashy
How utterly unsurprising that Mages immediately get responded too, while Havoc has been waiting on some promised answers for over a month.


Does it really matter that a "Community Manager" is responding? They probably know just as much as we do. All they do is watch the forums and probably relay back some information and get told "Say this to stop this". Do you think that the Blues that frequent these forums have much pull compared to the people who are balancing the game? hah. The class designers/balance team could care less about these forums or trade or even the "Community Managers". They are going to change things based on what they feel is needed cause they make the changes and walk out the door at the end of the day not caring.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum