7.1.5 Fire changes

Mage
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I can understand that Fire's burst was strong and that there were mandatory talents that needed addressing but that was feedback that was given in Beta numerous times. There were plenty of opportunities to change it back then but it never happened.

Fire shines because its strong burst compensates for its very mediocre sustained dps, which balances it out. Fire was already average on single target fights, even with the legendary bracers. Many logs can show that Fire is far from the top or being overpowered, we're pretty middle of the pack at the moment. Now in 7.1.5 Fire loses its strong burst and isn't yet compensated for its mediocre sustained, which is why we're seeing shocking numbers on the PTR. When people are seeing a 50-100k dps loss on the PTR, yeh that's a valid reason to freak out and get angry.

Of course, not all the changes are in and there's more work to be done, we get that. But when we see the legendary bracers going from 'very good' to 'not even worth casting', that's a problem; particularly when other strong legendaries were nerfed only slightly in comparison. In Beta the bracers were +200% from memory and they were buffed because they were a dps loss to use the effect; and now with the removal of Ice Floes it makes it even worse. The bracers are going to need adjustments to make it worth using or you'll have to completely change the effect; going live in this current state would make them purely a stat bonus. And being someone who has the bracers, I'd be looking to change them for a different legendary once I get one if it remains like this.

I do remain optimistic that once all the tuning is done (which will need to happen for Fire with the current changes) then we'll end up being in a good spot. I'd rather not respec after I've spent 3 months of my time and energy putting every single AP point in Felo'melorn.
https://www.reddit.com/r/wow/comments/5d9cat/state_of_fire_mage_going_into_715_ptr/?st=ivlopopq&sh=e8f90f74

This has some warcraft logs data and fire wasn't in a spot that warranted such changes, its already bad enough with the pyro nerf we received.

My unfinished Ebonchill with optimized gear is doing more for me than my Fel'melorn. Sad.
11/16/2016 05:13 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

As a quick example of the "in flux" status of 7.1.5, we are currently testing a change to the Marquee Bindings that would bring the damage down to 250% instead of 200% (down from 300% on live).

Keep in mind that the PTR is NOT FINAL and we are still testing numerous changes to various specs and items.


I would argue that this is the wrong way to nerf the bracers (im sure most will agree that are too powerful on the live servers)

The 300% additional damage not only makes the proc "worth it" but it also feels good to cast (long cast time with huge number is rewarding). So I would argue the damage modifier is in the right place.

The 20% proc chance however is the issue here, a nerf to 15% or even 10% would be a better option in keeping it inline with other Legendaries.

Now before anyone gets any funny ideas about agenda or whatever. Im a mage who has only had Norgannon's Foresight and Prydaz, Xavaric's Magnum Opus drop for him and has had to live with that.
11/16/2016 05:04 PMPosted by Jeallous
Ooh, multiple blue responses to mage whining, only a few hours after PTR changes datamined!

This can only mean that a 3-sentence response to rogue nerfs (including to outlaw of all things - already dead last and played by barely anyone in mythics)... is only a couple of months away!


Are we playing the same game ?

I checked this amazing website that collects literally tens of million of log entries per day for WoW dungeons and raids.

It says that Rogues (outlaw) are #3 in DPS for mythic dungeons.

If you meant mythic raids, Rogues are #6 (assasination) and #8 (subtelty).

I feel heroic raids are a better representation of the state of DPS right now, and this is going to blow your mind:

Those rankings bump rogues up to being #2 and #4 in DPS!

Fire mages are #7.

And as baffling as it is, the #1 DPS for raiding is actually a dedicated healing class that can do awesome things like cast damage-absorbing shields, resurrect and heal people, and even mind control other players.

But hey, we mages really shouldn't be complaining. We can do really cool things like polymorph, which is crucial in PVE and really important in PVP especially since other players can't break out of it at a moment's notice. We can also cast portals which are really helpful - thank god every class wasn't given multiple options for quickly travelling around the world like we can!

We also make food for people which is really important - nobody really uses food that gives beneficial stats anyway (feasts, lol). We also have Time Warp, which gives us even more incredible utility to make up for our status as glass cannons - as if just ANY class other than mages and shamans could cast a really good haste buff for an entire raid like us.
11/16/2016 05:35 PMPosted by Felenigma
11/16/2016 05:31 PMPosted by Korashy
How utterly unsurprising that Mages immediately get responded too, while Havoc has been waiting on some promised answers for over a month.


Does it really matter that a "Community Manager" is responding? They probably know just as much as we do. All they do is watch the forums and probably relay back some information and get told "Say this to stop this". Do you think that the Blues that frequent these forums have much pull compared to the people who are balancing the game? hah. The class designers/balance team could care less about these forums or trade or even the "Community Managers". They are going to change things based on what they feel is needed cause they make the changes and walk out the door at the end of the day not caring.


Yes it does matter. Blue posts create visibility. It leads to more constructive discussions and a better feedback cycle. It also clearly shows where the priorities lie in terms of addressing the player base.

What's ridiculous is that classes or even specs don't have clear representative on the dev team that are constantly communicating with the boards and top theory crafters. Issues that have been pointed out since beta aren't being fixed, and the community is constantly blindsided by nerfs or changes.
11/16/2016 05:15 PMPosted by Solkanar
11/16/2016 05:13 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

As a quick example of the "in flux" status of 7.1.5, we are currently testing a change to the Marquee Bindings that would bring the damage down to 250% instead of 200% (down from 300% on live).


With ice flows, that is reasonable
Noticed. I've passed the feedback along that Ice Flows is one of the the things that player's feel are hurting the spec. As said, we are still iterating, so I'll update you guys as things come to me.
I don't understand the Koralon's Burning Touch change. It's damage is at best comparable to not scorching at that point. I'm glad to hear numbers are still being adjusted, but taking off the % entirely from it does make it seem wasted, I get that you /can/ fish with it at 100% crit, but that doesn't make it worth the legendary slot in my humble opinion. I'm just hoping there is some complete scorch reworking since all of these changes are in the midst of the rework to fix the secondary stats issue. since I'm stuck with this belt, I would love another pass looked into it, please don't just turn it into a stat stick!
11/16/2016 05:40 PMPosted by Korashy
11/16/2016 05:35 PMPosted by Felenigma
...

Does it really matter that a "Community Manager" is responding? They probably know just as much as we do. All they do is watch the forums and probably relay back some information and get told "Say this to stop this". Do you think that the Blues that frequent these forums have much pull compared to the people who are balancing the game? hah. The class designers/balance team could care less about these forums or trade or even the "Community Managers". They are going to change things based on what they feel is needed cause they make the changes and walk out the door at the end of the day not caring.


Yes it does matter. Blue posts create visibility. It leads to more constructive discussions and a better feedback cycle. It also clearly shows where the priorities lie in terms of addressing the player base.

What's ridiculous is that classes or even specs don't have clear representative on the dev team that are constantly communicating with the boards and top theory crafters. Issues that have been pointed out since beta aren't being fixed, and the community is constantly blindsided by nerfs or changes.


Wait... I don't even understand what your getting at. You said that Blue posts create visibility and a better feedback cycle. But then in your second paragraph is point out the flaw I was getting at..... The current feedback cycle gets ignored all the time. Soooooo..... What in the world did you think I was getting at? That was the whole point of that post.
11/16/2016 05:13 PMPosted by Ornyx
Hey all,

As a quick example of the "in flux" status of 7.1.5, we are currently testing a change to the Marquee Bindings that would bring the damage down to 250% instead of 200% (down from 300% on live).

Keep in mind that the PTR is NOT FINAL and we are still testing numerous changes to various specs and items.


Without Ice Floes that still ain't happening.
11/16/2016 05:42 PMPosted by Ornyx
Noticed. I've passed the feedback along that Ice Flows is one of the the things that player's feel are hurting the spec. As said, we are still iterating, so I'll update you guys as things come to me.


If you guys still decide to remove Ice Floes from Fire then at least make the bracers proc make the hard-casted Pyro castable while moving.
Let's just hope that this IS an early iteration of the PTR and my middle of the pack ST can stay middle of the pack. I am having a blast in-game atm, on my very first toon (used to be undead). This expac made me want to 'reinvest' in my first love (mage). I have played fire consistently thoughout almost every expac (spent some time flirting with arcane). If that motivation is drained due to unwarranted and poorly designed/implemented core mechanical changes, it will not be coming back and neither will I.
I kinda wonder if Ice Floes existing is overall bad for the class, given how much insane outcry there's been about two entire specs being claimed dead just because they'd no longer have access to it.
11/16/2016 05:42 PMPosted by Ornyx
11/16/2016 05:15 PMPosted by Solkanar
...

With ice flows, that is reasonable
Noticed. I've passed the feedback along that Ice Flows is one of the the things that player's feel are hurting the spec. As said, we are still iterating, so I'll update you guys as things come to me.

Counterpoint: Ray of Frost can't be Floes'd, and is perfectly usable in all content thus far despite being over twice the cast length.
11/16/2016 05:51 PMPosted by Sarm
I kinda wonder if Ice Floes existing is overall bad for the class, given how much insane outcry there's been about two entire specs being claimed dead just because they'd no longer have access to it.


Like I mentioned earlier, it really does not help that the other two talents on that row see virtually no use in PvE for very good reason: they're borderline useless.
11/16/2016 05:47 PMPosted by Felenigma
11/16/2016 05:40 PMPosted by Korashy
...

Yes it does matter. Blue posts create visibility. It leads to more constructive discussions and a better feedback cycle. It also clearly shows where the priorities lie in terms of addressing the player base.

What's ridiculous is that classes or even specs don't have clear representative on the dev team that are constantly communicating with the boards and top theory crafters. Issues that have been pointed out since beta aren't being fixed, and the community is constantly blindsided by nerfs or changes.


Wait... I don't even understand what your getting at. You said that Blue posts create visibility and a better feedback cycle. But then in your second paragraph is point out the flaw I was getting at..... The current feedback cycle gets ignored all the time. Soooooo..... What in the world did you think I was getting at? That was the whole point of that post.


I'm extremely unsatisfied with the feedback cycle, but having a bad feedback cycle is preferable to none.

Is anyone here actually satisfied with how communication about class balance is being handled? How feedback is discussed?

Wow is a great product, but service is among the worst i've experienced. If there was a comparable product on the market with the same scope as wow, I would have left a long time ago.
11/16/2016 05:42 PMPosted by Ornyx
<span class="truncated">...</span>

With ice flows, that is reasonable
Noticed. I've passed the feedback along that Ice Flows is one of the the things that player's feel are hurting the spec. As said, we are still iterating, so I'll update you guys as things come to me.


Can you please iterate on how you feel about the talent changes? I feel like they accomplished nothing and all of the same talents will be taken for Fire Mages. They didn't add much variety or depth.
11/16/2016 03:30 PMPosted by Poukie
11/16/2016 03:24 PMPosted by Ornyx
As a long time fire mage player (among other classes, don't pigeonhole me :P ), I think it's very fair to say the spec needed some adjustments - that's something I've heard in Trade and Guild Chat since Legion day one (even the post above me is a player who boosted a mage for this reason).

While there are some (what I personally feel) valid concerns with how adjustments affect investment into Artifacts, our adjustments aren't of the caliber that should warrant "FIRE IS DEAD" being screamed from the mountaintops. We want players to play the spec they want, and not focus on switching in an out of the FotM every patch cycle.

Anyways, it's good to note that we are still iterating on 7.1.5, and we are by no means patch-complete at this point. We are not currently in a state where we are ready to share detailed thoughts on Fire until the changes are fully implemented.

Datamining is not always something you should be going by 100% when providing feedback - just something to keep in mind.


That's all well and good for fire. How can you justify changes to frost that simultaneously nerf its DPS by a large margin as well as make the spec less fun, less interactive, and more RNG based?

I didn't pick mage because I want to sit and cast nothing but frostbolt for 30 seconds hoping for a 10% proc. This is an absolute joke.


Echoing this for more attention. I was really satisfied with frost but now it's pretty much been undone by, quite frankly, horrible changes. You made splitting Ice and thermal void obsolete.
11/16/2016 05:42 PMPosted by Ornyx
11/16/2016 05:15 PMPosted by Solkanar
...

With ice flows, that is reasonable
Noticed. I've passed the feedback along that Ice Flows is one of the the things that player's feel are hurting the spec. As said, we are still iterating, so I'll update you guys as things come to me.


It is very reassuring that you guys are reading this and doing stuff about it. I was pretty salty this AM. I'm not saying fire wasn't REALLY strong in some situations, and there was a HUGE difference between non bracer and bracer mages, the point of the matter these were HUGE nerfs and being in mythic progression.....the numbers aren't backing up the nerfs in war craft logs. Fire mages definitely shine in certain situations ( nightbane runs with living bomb, xavius with tentacle ignite cheese ) . The flame on change is fine, I don't think anyone really cares about that. Rune of power....well lets face it EVERYONE hates Rune of Power. If you think its too strong with burst, ever think of just buffing incanters flow? I know once RoP wasn't needed in HFC because of leg ring and scaling I didn't use RoP ever. Our damage right now just isn't good enough without it, our sustained is weak. I don't care if sustained is increased and burst is decreased as I'm sure others don't either.

I don't know. At least its a step in the right direction. Bracers were too strong, not in overall raid game ( really NEEDED if you were going to keep up in ST ) but in balance against other mages. TBH you should nerf the bracers to 250 and revert the pyro nerf from a few weeks ago. Get a lot of brownie points for that from mage community
11/16/2016 05:42 PMPosted by Ornyx
11/16/2016 05:15 PMPosted by Solkanar
...

With ice flows, that is reasonable
Noticed. I've passed the feedback along that Ice Flows is one of the the things that player's feel are hurting the spec. As said, we are still iterating, so I'll update you guys as things come to me.


This 'iteration' on the bracers is exactly what we went through on the pre-launch beta when the bracers at 200% damage were extremely underwhelming - which is why it was changed to 300% (after the devs looked at the 'tons' of data they collected then)
And the devs needed all our feedback to figure out that removal of ice floes is the nerf that hurts fire (and arcane) the most?

While I appreciate you staying on top of the changes and informing us, it is surprising and extremely disappointing that such glaring misses even made it to the PTR build.

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